First real cycle a few questions

[MINO]

Hello all, First Ill give you some of my background before I talk about the cycle I am considering. I am 235 lbs, 6'1" 21 years old. I've been working out since I was 15 years old non stop. Kept with the lifestyle all these years with the longest break from the gym being a month and a half! My bench started out when I was 15 years old at 95 lbs once barely. within the first two years my bench went up to 315 lbs 3 times. I stagnated at 315 lbs for 3 years and within the past year my bench is now 345 lbs once, twice with a spot. When I received my most gains within the first two years of working out were mainly due to diet my first year and prohormones my second year. The best thing I took was a product called Testadrol 50, which if researched is supposidly a combination of superdrol, dianabol precursor, and a form of oral trenbolone(I researched it a few days ago and they say in pill form it is two molecules away from trenbolone and your body converts it into trenbolone after it passes the liver). Anyways, on testadrol 50 I took it in a pyramid schedule as one of my sources recommended me to do, 1 pill all the first week, 1 pill one day 2 pill the next day trading off the next week, and 2 pills a day the third week, and then 1 2 1 2 1 2 the 4th week and 1 1 1 1 1 the 5th week and then a pct. My bench went from 275 lbs barely twice to 315 lbs 3 times, and it became obvious to people that I was "on something."

So that is some background to what I have done. In the past 4 years I have not taken anything! Right now I have no pains/pulled muscles, In very good health, hitting the gym 5 times a week very heavy.

Im looking to start back on a cycle and try to get my bench as close to 405 lbs as possible if not 405 lbs! I was looking at either taking anadrol or dianabol or both at the same time with a low dosage. I want to stay away from injectables for now. Basically if I can get to my goal without injectables I am going to go that route even if it takes me a little longer.

here is what I am looking at doing

Anadrol 50mg for 6 weeks and pct for 4 weeks after

Dianabol 30-40mg for 6 weeks and pct for 4 weeks after

or

Anadrol 30mg and dianabol 10mg for 6 weeks and pct for 4 weeks after

I read somewhere that dianabol and anadrol use separate biological pathways so they can be used together at low dosages to further prevent side effects and have a synergistic effect in the body.


For a pct I was looking at Clomid, Nolva, HCGenerate and Forma-stanzol. Not sure on what dosages I should use and which ones I should combine and use for a PCT.


So let me know which steroid cycle I should chose for the most strength gains and which pct combination/dosage I should chose to retain the most, if not all strength/mass. Again I will say I am 235 lbs with about 15-20~% body fat and i am currently not looking to cut but to build strength and size. Also are these dosages proportional for a 235 lbs male?


I really appreciate the help and advice.

[TFf]

Dude you are too young. And I benched 405 raw at 205 body weight naturally sounds like you want a quick way to increase your bench. Really just work hard. Wait 5 years. And why would you want to take two oral compounds and no test? I'm new to all of this but your plan sounds horrible to me! If any one else can correct me please do...

[c-Z]

No he is correct. You are To young to risk the sides at your age. Your bodies still developing. Theres plenty of guys here who have been in your shoes and cycled young and now are on trt for life.

Oral only cycle is a poor choice as well...

[MINO]

so seriously 21 years old is too young? So I guess for now just go back on some prohormones like I use to do because I was getting good results from those. I just thought about trying out gear because I didn't think there was a big difference between orals and prohormones. And you all don't think 6 years is enough time to get to 4 plates? I've been at 3 plates for 4 years!

[gearbox]

Your too young. And the response you just gave proves you are young mentally also. I would stay away from pro h also. You want to be sure and have everything in order before u take the plunge

[steve siwek]

Change your workout it's obviously not working. Get a trainer to show you how to bench! Try power lifting. There are other options out there for you

[MINO]

just saying you should not do something and giving me no reason why I shouldn't isn't going to discourage me from looking into it. Back when I was in high school there were a few people that thought I was too young but I went ahead and ran a cycle anyways and got great results. I see creatine as a waste of money and any other muscle builders as well. ia good diet and some good phs have done me well a few years ago. The only side effects I remember that were bad were the back pumps. Now those are no joke! No position is comfortae when you get those. If you guys can explain how gear is much harder on your body than a ph that will very well discourage me from gear. But just saying don't do it doesn't mean anything. People made a big deal about phs and I got even nervous alittle taking them but after like 3 weeks I realized it was cake and everyone built it up like I was going to be severely changed. They worked like they were suppose to I had blood work done and was perfectly healthy but my liver levels were moderately high. But I am passed the stage of changing up my workouts bro I have literly just about done every exercise possible.

[MINO]

does anyone have a reason why I should wait until I'm older? The way I see it is I'm in my prime now so it's a better time then waiting later in life. And how is it a big difference between phs and gear? I always thought phs were harder on your body because your liver has to do the conversions.

[BigGuy90]

Orals and Ph's are both very taxing on the liver. Either way your liver enzymes are going to increase significantly and an oral only cycle is a bad idea because it shuts down the natural production of your testosterone. If you run oral only you risk running ED, depression, all the things that come with Low T. Inject able Test is always a base for any cycle, including orals. Personally, I wouldn't take PH's. I have read many published articles on them and many trainers have told me they would rather take steroids than PHs because its "safer." Funny

[MINO]

Orals and Ph's are both very taxing on the liver. Either way your liver enzymes are going to increase significantly and an oral only cycle is a bad idea because it shuts down the natural production of your testosterone. If you run oral only you risk running ED, depression, all the things that come with Low T. Inject able Test is always a base for any cycle, including orals. Personally, I wouldn't take PH's. I have read many published articles on them and many trainers have told me they would rather take steroids than PHs because its "safer." Funny

Good information. Yeah I heard the same about prohormones which is why I was confused when people were discouraging me to use gear more than a ph.

I just want to stay away from pinning myself. I have this fear of me not doing it right and getting in a hurry or getting an infection of some sort. Yes I have already talked to people and been explained on how its done Im just not comfortable doing it.

But the ED, depression do not stick around after the cycle if you pct properly? Or would it be better to take like HCGenerate while I am taking the orals?

And yes I already know not to drink any on the cycle and wait untill a little after the pct is done to start back up.

How do my dosages look? I heard its less side effects if you do low dosages of anadrol and dianabol at the same time with more strength gains and potency.

[BigGuy90]

Well it's different with everybody. Some take oral only and it doesn't shut them down too much to notice any sides like erection problems or/and changes depression wise. It all depends on the natural production of the test the user is already producing. I doubt you produce low test since your 21 but everybody is different. PCT is not done 4 weeks after dbol or adrol. Since the half lives are so short lived, PCT is followed the next day. Personally I wouldn't combine any orals together. They both might have the side effect of reducing your appetite, but again everybody is different. I myself did a cycle at 20 of Dbol at 50mg ed for a month and was fine. I did it because of baseball since I lost 20 lbs after my reconstructive surgery. I would have used test, but it got stolen.

[Scat40]

ProH and Orally could literally be your demise. Maybe not now, but on down the road. And the fact that your are 21 and your "body" may not be done growing. You should have a substantial amout of T. in your body right now. You need to wait a few years and if you haven't had liver and what not checked then you need to. Oral anything can cause a great deal of damage to your liver/kidney/overall body.

[BigGuy90]

ProH and Orally could literally be your demise. Maybe not now, but on down the road. Oral anything can cause a great deal of damage to your liver/kidney/overall body.

I agree. Again, if abused and used at a young age then it could have severe repercussions on your endocrine system and your HPTA. That is why steroids aren't recommended for someone under the age of 25, because that is the time when your body is fully developed as a male. I know an endocrinologist that actually recommends one cycle per year after the age of 35, just to keep the joints and your body in shape. That is of course, if you know what you are doing and you already have a good natural base.

[TraPump]

does anyone have a reason why I should wait until I'm older? The way I see it is I'm in my prime now so it's a better time then waiting later in life. And how is it a big difference between phs and gear? I always thought phs were harder on your body because your liver has to do the conversions.

Dude you're too young. Your going to end up ruining your under developed endocrine and you'll never recover. Then you know what's gonna happen? You're going be doing trt and takin those same injections you're trying to stay away from now for the rest of your life. If I I were you I woul take a step back. Stay away from PHs and gear until your 25 and your endocrine is full developed. That will give you plenty of time to research gear and come up with a realistic first cycle not that joke you just posted. Take it with a grain of salt man I mean no harm you just don't need to be messing w your hormones a 21.

[MINO]

Dude you're too young. Your going to end up ruining your under developed endocrine and you'll never recover. Then you know what's gonna happen? You're going be doing trt and takin those same injections you're trying to stay away from now for the rest of your life. If I I were you I woul take a step back. Stay away from PHs and gear until your 25 and your endocrine is full developed. That will give you plenty of time to research gear and come up with a realistic first cycle not that joke you just posted. Take it with a grain of salt man I mean no harm you just don't need to be messing w your hormones a 21.

Well if I don't take any gear what do you recommend me to do to get my bench up? I already eat until I feel like puking and I have already tried changing up my workouts. I make sure every workout I do doesnt go over 1 hr and I lift as heavy as possible putting EVERYTHING out there. I'm not one of those guys that just lay around the gym and talk the whole time.

When i took a ph I honestly didnt think it was all that bad. I felt the same only stronger. Like literly felt like I wasnt taking anything only when I went into the gym I could lift alot more weight. Most of the time anyways. The only prominent side effect I noticed was back pumps. And I only got that like one MAYBE two days on the 4th or 5th week.

Creatine helps me but its MINIMAL. Like it will help me push out maybe an extra couple of reps then what I could do before. Like if I get 345 once... ill take some creatine and by the end ill be doing 345 twice. A change but for the price its just a waste of money and time.

I think preworkouts are all in your head. Again they make you FEEL great but bluntly put I usually already hype myself up and FEEL great when I go to the gym. And if I don't feel great usually Ill put some good music on to squeeze some motivation out of me to put it all out there.

I guess whats kind of motivating me is a guy I workout with is my age and doing phs, we both use to be the same on strength and we are a similar build. Now he has far surpassed me in strength from doing phs. And he swears up and down by them.

But anyways like bigguy90 was saying I think it really has to do with how much test your body is making in order for you to need to take test injections with dbol. What I was thinking is if I took a powerful natural test booster at a low dose before I start taking dbol and elevate my test levels then run dbol for 4 weeks and right after run a higher dose of the same test booster with nolva, clomid and forma I should be good? What would be the worst that can happen? 4 weeks isnt that long on gear.

I would be surprised if my body hasnt fully developed as im already starting to get alot of grey hair.

[TFf]

Bro why are you do concerned with your bench!? Try to squat deadlift or power clean ! There is no need to take aas to get a bigger bench and eating till you want to puke isn't going to make your bench bigger. Eat and lift smarter. Stop trying to convince people of your point to make your self comfortable with using prematurely. And seriously come up with a better reason than wanting to bench more!

[MINO]

Well its not JUST my bench that is stagniated My other exercises are stagnated too. I just use my bench as a measure of how strong I am/ big I am.

How can I eat smarter? Everyone knows that if your wanting to get bigger/stronger you up for carb/protein intake.

My lifting schedule is consistant

mon- chest
tues- back
wedn- legs
thurs- I use to do shoulders but as of a month or two ago Ive been doing chest instead of shoulds to get my bench up
fri- arms

I dont go to the gym for more than an hr. I lift as heavy as possible usually 3 sets each exercise 8 reps first set 5 reps second set 1-3 reps third set. This is all lifting as heavy as possible. I do 10-20 sets each workout. Depends on the muscle/day.

Anyways, Ive been doing this for awhile and have seen no increase at least within the past year, year and a half. And honestly not a big increase in 3-4 years.


The better reason is Im not progressing any. If you can recommend something useful that will help me reach my goal other than gear I will try. But as of now the best thing I have experience with is prohormones and I have heard these are more toxic than gear.

[TFf]

Bench press is not a good gauge of How stron you are. At all maybe gauge it by your total of all three lifts or your strength compared to your body weight. If you want to make strength gains check out a 5-3-1 routine or look at some Dave Tate stuff... Just drop the gear idea and the ph idea. Don't be so concerned with a specific lift you don't have eboughr time "tearing it up" to be concerned with hitting plateaus.

[TFf]

And you are 21... If you havent seen a big gain in 3-4 years thr means you haven't seen a gain since you were 17...? To me that means you saw the initial benifit of lifting weights and then tapered off. Maybe talk to someone who is accomplished in powerlifting and actually listen to them not just take the info and implement it as YOU think it should be.

[MINO]

Well if I had just started working out or never tried ph's and had success with them I probably would believe what you are saying. I have tried powerlifter routines. I have tried HIT routines. I have tried controlled routines. I have tried core routines. Dude its all the same shit. To me its how much you put out there when you do it and obviously less reps is for mass building and more reps is for cutting. My workouts are very low rep mass building because I am trying to get stronger.

I DID have blood work done after my ph cycle too and I was perfectly fine. Only this was my liver levels were a little high. But that is expected! I just got off of a cycle! It takes at least 6 months to a year for your liver to re stabilize.

What I am curious of is, how is gear much more dangerous than a ph? And why shouldnt I try gear out if i've already had great success with a ph? Now that would be helpful and possibly steer me away from gear! But just telling me not to do it and not to take something Ive already had success with is pointless!

Its kind of like telling a person who always runs when he diets to stop running because its hard on his knees. Hes obviously not going to be running for the rest of his life and probably wont be running for over 2-3 months so unless he has genetically deficient knees whats the problem?

I can be a bit stubborn sometimes but I dont just accept things people say right away it has to be proven to me or explained.

[The Bear 79]

OP, lets have a look at this diet & training regime that you say needs no work. Post your diet first, include times of each meal, cals, proteins, carbs & fats also.

[The Bear 79]

FYI, the reason behind everyone telling you you're too young is this: At your age your body should be producing more than enough of the necessary hormones to produce some very impressive gains. At your age your Endocrine & HPTA are not fully developed, cycling right now could stunt your growth & permanently shut down your hormone system, leaving you with erectile dysfunction, low or no libido, chronic fatigue & depression. Just to name a few.

[MINO]

I honestly dont keep a talley of my proteins, cals, carbs and fats. The first 2-3 years I use to keep a talley and now I know about how much meat I need/ shakes/ carbs. Like if I go to a restaurant Im not going to ask to see their nutritional information before I order, I will just order double chicken something or steak or sometype of beef or chicken. I use to eat a can of large tuna every morning but I got sick of that shit quick and it really didnt help just made my first piss stink.

Monday is chest
Bench warmup
15 slow holding reps just to get blood flowing at 135 lbs
then I do 5 reps at 255 lbs(I can really do 8-10 reps at this weight but I "save" a bit of energy/power for my last heavier set)
then 345 lbs 1 rep

then I go to incline barbell
I do 8 reps at 235 lbs
3 reps at 285 lbs

Then I go to hammer strength decline press
I do 5 plates on both sides(most the machine can handle)
8 reps first set
7 reps second set
6 reps third set(usually as the more sets I do the less reps I get)

Then I finish with a type of upward fly not sure what it is called but it is very common. On pulleys you set the pulleys as low as possible and grab the handle standing and bring the handle diagonally up meeting arms extended in front of your body.
8 reps
6 reps
4 reps going up in weight and all of these reps I push my self to get every ounce of strength I have to get the last rep. So I literally cant do anymore.

Tuesday is back
I have no concrete routine I do most of the time. I switch this up everyweek. I do bent rows, low row pulleys, weighted pullups, dumbell rows, pull downs, close grip pull downs, close grip pull ups, not too big into deadlifts but I do them from time to time.

Wednesday is legs
Again no concrete routine, I do hack squats, squats, leg press, calf press, sitting calves.

thursday usually is close to the same as monday. I use to do shoulders but I workout so hard on back and chest days I dont really see a need to do shoulders.

Friday I do arms
again no concrete routine. Usually I include barbell curls, dumbell hammer curls, decline skull crushers, laying cable curls, standing V bar tricepts.


Each day I workout one thing I do make sure is that I do at least 10-12 sets and that I put EVERYTHING out there while not going over an hour of gym time. Since I started I have always drank a whey shake right after I workout and drank a whey shake right before I go to bed with 10 oz of milk.



But really when I first started lifting I kept logs and diet planners and all of that shit but after I did it awhile I just stopped doing it and went off "feel".

[MINO]

FYI, the reason behind everyone telling you you're too young is this: At your age your body should be producing more than enough of the necessary hormones to produce some very impressive gains. At your age your Endocrine & HPTA are not fully developed, cycling right now could stunt your growth & permanently shut down your hormone system, leaving you with erectile dysfunction, low or no libido, chronic fatigue & depression. Just to name a few.

So do you think me taking ph's when I was 17 has stunted my growth and that is why I have plateaued? I dont really understand it because I feel great and I have no problem busting a load or getting a hardon.

[The Bear 79]

OK, so if you're still eating the same as you did 2 or 3 years ago when you stopped keeping track, how many cals were you averaging 2 - 3 yrs ago? I'm digging into you're diet because a lot of people that are having a hard time gaining or breaking a plateau, usually have an underlying diet issue, & they all think "their diet is fine".

[TFf]

Man i don't thin stubborn is the correct word...
You are telling me that these routenes DON'T work? How is it that there are tested comps with people not on gear making strength gains and breaking records?
Also it's been proven that to acheive maximum hypertrophy your goal should be failure at 12-15 reps ... Have you ever looked at your problem areas in each lift and done work to correct these?
And man, you realize these senior members are telling you stuff to help you are you are basically
Telling them they are wrong? Why are you even asking them questions if you don't want the answers? Or are you the type to keep asking the same question till you get the answer you want?

[The Bear 79]

So do you think me taking ph's when I was 17 has stunted my growth and that is why I have plateaued? I dont really understand it because I feel great and I have no problem busting a load or getting a hardon.

Stunted growth is not going to create a lifting plateau later in life, but suppressed HPTA will.

[gearbox]

Where is ur research you base ph causing stunt growth on?

[The Bear 79]

I never said PH's could stunt your growth, I said steroids could.

[MINO]

OK, so if you're still eating the same as you did 2 or 3 years ago when you stopped keeping track, how many cals were you averaging 2 - 3 yrs ago? I'm digging into you're diet because a lot of people that are having a hard time gaining or breaking a plateau, usually have an underlying diet issue, & they all think "their diet is fine".

I dont eat exactly the same preperation and everything of chicken/beef every single day but I usually average

3 whey shakes 50g of protein each. 1 in the morning, 1 right after my workout, and one with 10 oz of milk right before bed.
at least 3 meals other than the 3 whey shakes, usually 8 oz of meat with each meal.

It use to come out to around 450g of protein and 500g of carbs. I never kept too much track of my fats or calories unless I was trying to cut down.
Usually this much is me eating every 2-4 hrs and stuffing in as much carbs/meat as possible. I will even eat if I am not hungry.


TFf Im not saying you guys are wrong, im just asking you to prove me wrong! Challenging you all I guess you could say.

And about the workouts, man failure at 12-15 reps is for cutting bro. I have NEVER heard anyone do that many damn reps trying to get stronger. And to be honest either you are genetically god lik or your story of benching 405 lbs weighing 205 lbs is false. Sounds like a crock of shit unless you have extremely good genetics. Which very well might be the case in which I would be very jealous of you.

[MINO]

I never said PH's could stunt your growth, I said steroids could.

And also this is confusing the shit out of me. Some say phs and steroids are damn near the same deal and some act like they are totally different. From my research I have seen they are maybe a couple molecules off from the real thing but it pretty much is the real thing, maybe not as pure but just as toxic/bad for you as steroids.

[The Bear 79]

I dont eat exactly the same preperation and everything of chicken/beef every single day but I usually average

3 whey shakes 50g of protein each. 1 in the morning, 1 right after my workout, and one with 10 oz of milk right before bed.
at least 3 meals other than the 3 whey shakes, usually 8 oz of meat with each meal.

It use to come out to around 450g of protein and 500g of carbs. I never kept too much track of my fats or calories unless I was trying to cut down.
Usually this much is me eating every 2-4 hrs and stuffing in as much carbs/meat as possible. I will even eat if I am not hungry.

I doubt you're getting enough nutrients to achieve your goals in 3 meal & 3 shakes. BTW, shakes are good pre & / or post workout, but they were never intended to be a meal & should not be utilized as such. Real food is best, especially when trying to gain / break a plateau.

[The Bear 79]

And also this is confusing the shit out of me. Some say phs and steroids are damn near the same deal and some act like they are totally different. From my research I have seen they are maybe a couple molecules off from the real thing but it pretty much is the real thing, maybe not as pure but just as toxic/bad for you as steroids.

Honestly, I don't know, I have never used PH's nor have I done any research on them, I have no interest in them, but I DO know they can effect your HPTA (hormone system) the same as steroids. They may very well effect your Endocrine the same as well...............I don't know.

[TFf]

Good genetics no.... Good work ethic yes... Sounds like yours is not so much. research muscular hypertrophy... You think Arnold did 1 rep? You think Jay or Phil do one rep or how about ronnie Colman? What about Olympic lifters? One rep also? No dude it's volume. Unless you are living and training at the OTC and on their training table it is unlikely that you are anywhere near your natural potential at your age.

[MINO]

I doubt you're getting enough nutrients to achieve your goals in 3 meal & 3 shakes. BTW, shakes are good pre & / or post workout, but they were never intended to be a meal & should not be utilized as such. Real food is best, especially when trying to gain / break a plateau.

You are correct. The whey shake after my workout and bed time I have heard are necessary. I feel like the only spot I cheat is in the morning and that is just out of convenience because its much quicker to make a whey shake than to fix up/seperate out some eggs. I usually do oatmeal with peanut butter and blue berrys with a whey shake and orange juice.

I feel like the only thing I could do is try eating more in the meals that I do eat but usually when I do that I feel like puking the whole damn day and that gets old after a little while. I currently eat until im very full but not to the point where I dont want to stand up.

And I have tried eating right before I go to bed instead of a whey shake and I have found it effects my sleep patterns. something about I usually get hot and toss and turn. I have read the laying position is terrible for digestion. Liquids digest much easier when sleeping.

[The Bear 79]

Try eating several smaller meals throughout the day to start with, you can increase the size of the meals as your body adjusts, & I would shoot for 3500 - 4000 cals, 300 proteins, & 400 - 500 carbs (complex) per day.

[MINO]

Good genetics no.... Good work ethic yes... Sounds like yours is not so much. research muscular hypertrophy... You think Arnold did 1 rep? You think Jay or Phil do one rep or how about ronnie Colman? What about Olympic lifters? One rep also? No dude it's volume. Unless you are living and training at the OTC and on their training table it is unlikely that you are anywhere near your natural potential at your age.

Alright show me this "god like routine" that I have possibly never heard of. I might be willing to try it and see how it goes if it seems reasonable. But bro the low reps heavy weight have been PROVEN to work the muscle fiber that is related to mass and strength.


The article I read a few years back that I have found closest to the truth said it is all about how you weight lift. Like don't do 3 reps with the mind set I have to do 3 reps. Picturing you have to do 3 reps or to failure as quick as possible is the best way to go. Getting in the mindset of trying to do heavy weight FAST, not only push the heaviest potential you can do but push it with urgency of trying to get it done as quick as possible while keeping good form. That in my opinion is putting it all out there.

This big dude on juice at my local gym I go to works out like that and he is 5'6" and weighs 275-280lbs. Looks like a total freak. I think he is only like 24-25 years old too. A buddy told me when he first put on all that weight he had trouble sleeping, something about just being too damn big for his frame.

[MINO]

Try eating several smaller meals throughout the day to start with, you can increase the size of the meals as your body adjusts, & I would shoot for 3500 - 4000 cals, 300 proteins, & 400 - 500 carbs (complex) per day.

Isnt that more for cutting? I already get like ~450g of protein and ~500g of carbs. I always eat wheat bread and brown rice.

[The Bear 79]

Isnt that more for cutting? I already get like ~450g of protein and ~500g of carbs. I always eat wheat bread and brown rice.

Cutting diet means you take in less, eating 7 or 8 meals a day has nothing to do with cutting, cutting & bulking all boils down to the macros.

[TFf]

There are many work outs look up achieving muscle hypertrophy it can't be implemented in many ways. You should know by now that you can't pick up some
Mag and find a routine and it work perfect for you...