First cycle!

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 02:20 PM

Hi all. I'm a newbie here. A little background, I'm 39 yrs old. 5-10, 190 lbs, admittedly a little soft around gut now. Just had a baby in Jan, so I added some baby weight during wife's pregnancy! From 98-2002 I was incarcerated, and lifted religiously while in. Since being out, I have mainly done maintenance, with a couple of serious training sessions mixed in for prep for wrestling tourneys.
I just started my test e cycle last Tuesday. Was going to try a 300 dose a week to see how it went. I am thinking tho, if I pin every 5 days, that would average 425 a week for 12 week cycle. Still less than most recommend, but I am erring on side of caution.
I plan on using HCG drops starting at week 6-13. Maybe small doses of Nolva mixed in too. Then 10mg nolva/50mg chlomid weeks 13-19. I already have the drops, and seemed to work as good as injectable for my wife?? Sound ok?
What should my food intake be? I ate 3200 cals yesterday,(rest day) at 190 grams protein. I was full all day! So, if I need more, can I just add more protein powder?
Thanks in advance!

**songdog** · 02-12-2012, 04:59 PM

Hit the diet section post your diet with macros they will help.Hell at 1st I thought you were a woman! just had a baby?

**scorpion62** · 02-12-2012, 05:41 PM

^^^^LMAO go with what songdog is saying hit the diet section sort this first

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 06:14 PM

Lol! Ya, i was trying to be funny bout my belly calling it baby weight!
I don't see a diet section in app on my phone tho?
Having wrestling background, I am pretty good about being able to get my body fat down and keep it down if I want.
I guess what I was intending on asking, is being on the test, should I eat a lot more than a normal bulking phase? And does it matter if the extra needed cals/protein come from shakes or real food?
I started hitting it hard three weeks ago, and eating better. Last week I pinned first time, and strict on diet.
Arms up almost half inch already, and I lost six lbs since I pinned. That got me to worrying that I'll need to eat A LOT more, being that the test hasn't really kicked in yet.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 06:34 PM

Ha! Ya I was eating same as the wife, so I called mine baby weight too!
I don't see a diet section on my phone app tho?
Having a wrestling background, I am pretty good with adjusting my diet as needed. Every year I do go thru a strict 3 month session to look good for summer.
I started training hard 3 wks ago, and cleaned up diet then. I pinned last week, and started strict diet again. In the three weeks, my arms grew 1/2 inch. Since I pinned, I lost 6 lbs!
That got me to thinking I may need to eat ALOT more, especially since test hasn't kicked in yet. So what I'm wondering is, can I just add more protein shakes throughout day, or does it need to be more real food?

**tomt45** · 02-12-2012, 07:05 PM

You need to eat more than 190grams of protein a day. Personally I like to eat 300+. Most of it should come from food sources, but I suggest you do what these guys said go to the diet section and post your existing diet and they can help you out some more. Btw what is your current bf%? You asked if you should be eating more than on just a natural bulking phase... What are you goals for this cycle? Is it strictly to bulk and put on mass? IMO 3200 calories is not nearly enough for bulking. When I bulk I shoot for 4500-5000.

Also I suggest you just go with 500mg a week of test and do injections 2x a week. One more thing you won't really notice the effects of the test until about week three or four...

Are you running a ai like arimidex or aromasin ? Cause you should... What is your plan for pct?

**testfeind123** · 02-12-2012, 07:13 PM

Yu don't need 300 grams of protein.. If yur bulking you only need Like 1.3g per lb of lbm. Not including fat.. So if yur at 12% bf yu only need around 220g but yes most of it should come from real food

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 08:00 PM

Thanks guys. I know rule of thumb is 2 g per pound, but seems like my body didn't ever require that much. With the test tho, I should def up the protein intake it sounds.
Tom- the guy I work with, and his "guy" both told me I shouldn't need arimidex . Even tho, I read an article that sold me on it, they assured me I'll be fine without. I am gonna do nolva/ chlomid pct for six weeks is the plan. HCG (drops) during cycle.
???

**tomt45** · 02-12-2012, 08:19 PM

A pretty standard pct is clomid 100/50/50/50 and nolva 40/40/20/20. Start it about 18 days after you last injection. I didnt use an ai on my first cycle, which was just test, but knowing what I know now I would. It's up to you, but I feel you should always use a ai while on cycle. I don't know much about those hcg drops and whether or not they are as effective as the injectable version. I am hoping to hear some of these guys input on it cause I am curious about them myself...

**magicstick2003** · 02-12-2012, 08:25 PM

if it's an OTC HCG odds are it's not the same as the inj form, since the real HCG requires a script (if i'm not mistaken). Also as someone said pinning a long ester like test E 5 days a week isn't necessary due to it being a long ester. Stable blood levels can be achieved 2 x a week (or E3D if you're feeling crazy).

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 08:29 PM

They seemed to work as well as the injectable for my wife for her weight loss. I guess I'm kind of handicapped as to what I can get a hold of, so arimidex is off the table for me it sounds. Unfortunately. Would smaller amounts of nolva during cycle be better than nothing?

**magicstick2003** · 02-12-2012, 08:46 PM

they do have places you can get a-dex online **cough** **cough** banner top right.... nolva will block receptors but not block conversion to estrogen. at 300/wk I'd assume nolva would work fine (had a buddy who never used a-dex just nolva and had no issues) just depends on how prone you are to sides.

**kelkel** · 02-12-2012, 08:58 PM

Are you doing any BW along the way? Personally I would add in the adex as suggested by magic. Just use caution so as not to crash your E2. The site he referred to is reliable, effective and efficient. In mid January Swifto posted a thread titled "Why it's important to run an AI when on Cycle." Search it up and read it. GREAT info in there.

Post your progress here please...

**magicstick2003** · 02-12-2012, 10:03 PM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...o#.TziJYLSbISY

here's the link to the article, really good info. never used aromasin , always went with a-dex but may look into it next go around.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 10:12 PM

Ok thanks guys! And ya, I had looked online for ai's, but didn't want to get scammed.. ?

**gigglesgreg** · 02-12-2012, 10:24 PM

I'll update later this week. Thanks again!

**gigglesgreg** · 02-13-2012, 09:04 PM

Day 6-
Did some measurements today.
Calves- 15 1/4
Thighs- 22 1/2
Arms - 15. (all flexed)

Chest- 44 1/2. ( relaxed)
Wrist- 6 1/2

Gained a lb back from yesterday, to 190. Protein was 250 g today. Working out some different combinations so I'm not so bloated all day! Ground up some boiled egg whites mixed with picante sauce for my taco meat.
Noticed I had little soreness after last two workouts, so going to add some work to routines. Doing 5 sets of 5 for compound lifts, and sets of 10 for isolation. Flies, extensions, kickbacks, etc.
No morning wood yet, or acne, mood changes either

**magicstick2003** · 02-14-2012, 07:11 AM

just remember with the test E you really won't "feel" it kick in till anywhere from week 4-6, i generally felt it sooner than later. generally speaking the sides you listed will take some time to come out if you do in fact get any of the above. 6 days in the compounds barely has had time to get in your system.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 09:08 AM

Thanks majic. I was told by day 10, I would start noticing, but I won't worry if it takes longer!
I was informed I will be receiving Letrozole and nolva at end of the week. Will the Letrozole take the place of the arimidex I had wanted? If so, I will plan on taking letro during cycle. I have yet to look and see what amounts I will need.

**magicstick2003** · 02-14-2012, 10:56 AM

letro will work but aromasin or arimidex would be a better choice. They all essentially do the same thing. letro IMO is too strong for a simple cycle like this.. as that article above says you want to control estrogen but not completely destroy it and drop levels too low.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by tomt45

A pretty standard pct is clomid 100/50/50/50 and nolva 40/40/20/20. Start it about 18 days after you last injection. I didnt use an ai on my first cycle, which was just test, but knowing what I know now I would. It's up to you, but I feel you should always use a ai while on cycle. I don't know much about those hcg drops and whether or not they are as effective as the injectable version. I am hoping to hear some of these guys input on it cause I am curious about them myself...

Should I still run the nolva the same during pct, now that I will be running an ai during cycle?

**magicstick2003** · 02-14-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by gigglesgreg

Should I still run the nolva the same during pct, now that I will be running an ai during cycle?

i believe it can benefit lipid profile a little but it shouldn't be needed if on an AI, someone correct me if i am wrong though. I always ran it at a low dose even with a-dex... i dont know if it was necessarily needed but i guess i'm a little extra cautious.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by magicstick2003

letro will work but aromasin or arimidex would be a better choice. They all essentially do the same thing. letro IMO is too strong for a simple cycle like this.. as that article above says you want to control estrogen but not completely destroy it and drop levels too low.

Was thinking I could tinker with dosages, so as to not destroy all estrogen? Maybe it doesn't work like that? I wasn't expecting to run ai, so I am unprepared on this. Will definitely be doing more research on it next couple days.
Too low estrogen makes u feel like crap I read?

**magicstick2003** · 02-14-2012, 11:15 AM

yeah thats what i had read in that one article as well. i mean it makes sense you don't want to skyrocket it and just block receptors with only a SERM but completely knocking it down as low as possible also lends itself to problems. gotta figure a happy medium. I can't remember the time frames on letro and dosing so you'd have to search that if thats all you had. you may be able to do a low dose.

**jasc** · 02-14-2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by magicstick2003

i believe it can benefit lipid profile a little but it shouldn't be needed if on an AI, someone correct me if i am wrong though. I always ran it at a low dose even with a-dex... i dont know if it was necessarily needed but i guess i'm a little extra cautious.

Nolva should help with lipid profile but that's just a positive side effect. It is used in pct primarily to increase LH n promote test production.

**jasc** · 02-14-2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by gigglesgreg

Was thinking I could tinker with dosages, so as to not destroy all estrogen? Maybe it doesn't work like that? I wasn't expecting to run ai, so I am unprepared on this. Will definitely be doing more research on it next couple days.
Too low estrogen makes u feel like crap I read?

I've never used letro because of the stregnth but I've seen swifto "ok" using it on cycle to control estrogen when that's all the people had. Not sure on the doseage but might be worth looking in to.

Too low estrogen isn't much fun. It kills sex drive, makes your joints/muscles hurt, lowers your overall sense of well being, makes you tired/lethargic.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 12:11 PM

I appreciate the help guys!
My bud gave me 5 weeks worth of test, and some of his homemade Tren for me to start with. Luckily, I opted not to try the tren! Prolly have a whole new set of problems....

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 02:02 PM

So, when getting your bloodwork done, are u up front with the doc as to why u want it?

**felk87** · 02-14-2012, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by gigglesgreg

So, when getting your bloodwork done, are u up front with the doc as to why u want it?

Mmm, you dont have to but it helps...you gotta see how your doctor is, mine he took it pretty cool, he said at least i was being responsible by having bw done...but i have also read of other people asking their doctors and getting denied, you dont necessarily dont have to but it helps, tell them you want lipid, estro, prest, abd test bw done...good luck.

**tomt45** · 02-14-2012, 02:14 PM

For your cycle it would be much better to go with adex or aromasin . But if you do go with letro use a very low dose like .25mg eod. Is the letro you are getting in pill or liquid form? What is the dosage? I ask because a lot of times you see letro pills come dosed at 2.5mg/pill. Those can be difficult to break up into small enough dosages. So if its not too late I recommend getting adex in place of the letro.

You asked if you should still run nolva the same during pct since you are running an ai. Yes. Clomid 100/50/50/50 nolva 40/40/20/20 is a pretty standard pct, some guys do the doses a little different and some run it for longer than 4 weeks. I think sticking to this would be a good pct for you proposed cycle.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by tomt45

For your cycle it would be much better to go with adex or aromasin . But if you do go with letro use a very low dose like .25mg eod. Is the letro you are getting in pill or liquid form? What is the dosage? I ask because a lot of times you see letro pills come dosed at 2.5mg/pill. Those can be difficult to break up into small enough dosages. So if its not too late I recommend getting adex in place of the letro.

You asked if you should still run nolva the same during pct since you are running an ai. Yes. Clomid 100/50/50/50 nolva 40/40/20/20 is a pretty standard pct, some guys do the doses a little different and some run it for longer than 4 weeks. I think sticking to this would be a good pct for you proposed cycle.

Ok. Haven't found out yet what letro we are getting, but I was thinking same thing about .25 eod. I read article on here where he recommended .25 every day, but my test doses are on low side. (for now anyways)
I notice a lot of discrepancy about ai's, and whether or not to use? Some people just old school or don't fix what ain't broke mentality?
I'm definitely gonna have my ducks in a row next time I do this!

**gearbox** · 02-14-2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by gigglesgreg

Ok. Haven't found out yet what letro we are getting, but I was thinking same thing about .25 eod. I read article on here where he recommended .25 every day, but my test doses are on low side. (for now anyways)
I notice a lot of discrepancy about ai's, and whether or not to use? Some people just old school or don't fix what ain't broke mentality?
I'm definitely gonna have my ducks in a row next time I do this!

The article said .25 of letro eod

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 05:25 PM

In the profile for letro, said effective dose at .25 /day, then warned about going over that. I think someone posted a link earlier, to an article too, but haven't gotten to read it yet.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by tomt45

You need to eat more than 190grams of protein a day. Personally I like to eat 300+. Most of it should come from food sources, but I suggest you do what these guys said go to the diet section and post your existing diet and they can help you out some more. Btw what is your current bf%? You asked if you should be eating more than on just a natural bulking phase... What are you goals for this cycle? Is it strictly to bulk and put on mass? IMO 3200 calories is not nearly enough for bulking. When I bulk I shoot for 4500-5000.

Also I suggest you just go with 500mg a week of test and do injections 2x a week. One more thing you won't really notice the effects of the test until about week three or four...

Are you running a ai like arimidex or aromasin? Cause you should... What is your plan for pct?

I had a long reply, that just got denied... Ugh So long story, I am used to dropping 15 lbs every summer for shirt off weather. Now I'm guessing I'm at 16% bf. goal is to end around 200 with 16" arms at least, and 10% bf.
When I get letro, I am gonna take your advice and bump up to 500 wk

**magicstick2003** · 02-14-2012, 09:27 PM

if you're just trying to keep estrogen in check with the letro like swifto's article suggest, then try the .25/EOD (haven't checked the half life and don't recall off hand althought I think EOD is perfectly acceptable) but the only way to truly have a gauge is to get blood work done before and during. I'd use both personally. The AI to prevent conversion (if letro at a lower dose due to it's strength) and the nolva to block receptors in the event levels weren't quite as low as they could safely be. kind of a dual attack, keep conversion down and block receptors for anything above normal.

**gigglesgreg** · 02-14-2012, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by magicstick2003

if you're just trying to keep estrogen in check with the letro like swifto's article suggest, then try the .25/EOD (haven't checked the half life and don't recall off hand althought I think EOD is perfectly acceptable) but the only way to truly have a gauge is to get blood work done before and during. I'd use both personally. The AI to prevent conversion (if letro at a lower dose due to it's strength) and the nolva to block receptors in the event levels weren't quite as low as they could safely be. kind of a dual attack, keep conversion down and block receptors for anything above normal.

That's prolly best. Would avoid running too low on estrogen, and block what is left over. I believe it said half life was 2-4 days? That means how long it is effective in body I take it?

**gigglesgreg** · 02-21-2012, 09:42 AM

Day 14- 196 lbs. Acne started. Face is more oily, libido has increased some. Sheep are still safe for now.
500 wk for test doses
Letro will be .25 every 3rd day, and will see how that goes.
I did get some inj HCG . I haven't decided if I will use it, or drops yet. Is it injected in muscle or subcutaneous ? The diets have you pin in fat tissue...?
Traps r noticeably bigger, strength increasing.

**jasc** · 02-21-2012, 09:56 AM

Pin the HCG Sub-q with a slin pin, 250iu 2x/wk... Injectable is far superior to the otc drops. Have a good look at the drops box. In small print somewhere it will say "hormone free"

**gigglesgreg** · 02-24-2012, 07:03 PM

Day 17-Been feeling pretty good. Better attitude at work, and at home. More energy too, it seems!
Strength is climbing steadily. Very little muscle soreness after workouts still. I suppose that is good, but I always liked to be a little sore to know I was doing enough.
Took .25mg letro on tues, and again on Thurs. My mood wasn't near as good as it had been today, so I am going to back down to .25 every 4 days, and go from there.
Up 2 lbs, arms grew 1/4" since last week, and belly fat has gone down some too. Jeans looser in waist, but tighter in legs, so I assume legs have grown too.
For cardio I've just been sprinting for 4 min, before breakfast, twice a week. This has always worked for me in past, usually 5 days wk tho. I'm afraid too much will negate some gains in mass.
So far it appears I am on target with my goals. Bodyfat is going down and gaining size too. Best thing is the Test hasn't fully kicked in yet, so I think I may surpass my goals!

**gigglesgreg** · 02-27-2012, 06:16 PM

Starting to wonder if what I got was good. What my bud gave me at first was 2-250 ampules, and another 500cc in another vial. He picked me up a new bottle last week, nice looking label. I started it last Monday.
All the strength gains, mood elevated etc, could just be placebo effect. Libido is somewhat better, but not like what I've read it should be. Erections don't just pop out of nowhere either. Do I have reason to be concerned?
I know some of you gonna tell me get bloodwork, but that is an avenue that could lead my wife to find out before I want to tell her!
Any feedback appreciated