First Cycle Questions

[anabolics_anonymous]

I am 20 years old, 5'8'' ~205lbs (13-15% bodyfat). I have been training for a total of 6 years, and have done a few powerlifting competitions. After about a year and a half of not making very substantial gains with proper nutrition and routines I have been contemplating running an anabolic cycle for my first time. I have read most of the beginner stickies on these forums, and on others, but I still need suggestions. The connection I have is 100% legitamite, I am not recieving fake steroids so that is not a concern. I also have a lot of different anabolics available, but I don't know which ones are the best for a beginner. Some of the ones that I know are available are test-cyph, tren, deca, anadrol, and anavar. I know I could have done more research beforehand but that is why I am posting here. One of the beginner cycles that sparked an interest to me was this one:
Cycle 4:
1 – 4 D-bol 40mg ED
1 – 10 Cyp 400mg/wk
1 – 12 Nolvadex 10mg ED
1 – 12 L-dex .25mg ED

Start PCT 18 days after last Cyp injection

Here are the few questions that I have:
I can probably get D-bol, but would anadrol (oral) or anavar (oral) be more effective? Also, isn't 40mg every day an extremely high dosage for dianabol? Also, my friend is looking to run two forms of test together but I don't know if this is the best idea for my first cycle. Could someone with a lot of experience please help me out and write a ~8-12 week cycle with the anabolics I have available? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[OnTheSauce]

You're too young, but....

W1-12 500mg test e. hcg 500iu. Arimidex .25mg eod

W15-16 nolva 40mg clomid 100mg
W16-17 nolca 20mg clomid 50mg

[anabolics_anonymous]

Thanks for the reply I really appreciate it, this is what I was looking for I just have a few more questions.
1. What age would you recommend waiting until?
2. Is it going to be very hard to get my test levels back to normal after the cycle at 20 years old?
3. Why do you not recommend an oral for a kick-start?
4. Test-e is just test-enanthate correct? Am I supposed to split up the injections into a few times a week?
5. And also you meant to write nolva for W16-17 also correct?

[jasc]

Thanks for the reply I really appreciate it, this is what I was looking for I just have a few more questions.
1. What age would you recommend waiting until?
2. Is it going to be very hard to get my test levels back to normal after the cycle at 20 years old?
3. Why do you not recommend an oral for a kick-start?
4. Test-e is just test-enanthate correct? Am I supposed to split up the injections into a few times a week?
5. And also you meant to write nolva for W16-17 also correct?

1) 25 is optimal
2) Noone can really answer that for you. The endocrine system is not typically fully developed until the age of 25, that's why we recommend waiting. Shutting down a system that is not yet fully developed puts you at a much greater risk of causing permanent damage and possibly never fully developing.
3) First cycle should be only 1 compound so if you have any problems you know exactly what caused it and know better how to correct it.
4) Yes, and 2x/wk is best
5) With Test E, pct should begin 2 weeks after your last test shot

Pay careful attention to #2. You are at a much greater risk than someone who waited. Not being able to get an erection is pretty shitty at 20 yrs old, not to mention depression, fat gain, and a whole bunch of other problems that can arise. I was your age once, and I know from experience that telling you not to do something will only want to make you do it more, but giving you the facts can help you make a more informed decision.

[stpete]

1) 25
2) Are you not concerned about the possibility of permanently damaging yourself?
3) Not recommended for a first cycle regardless of age or training experience.
4) and since you don't know this one, or rather two questions, it's back to the drawing board for you before you end up hurting yourself.

Check out the Educational Forum and Stickies. You don't want to take any chances w/your endocrine system. Trust me.

Good Luck

[anabolics_anonymous]

Thanks for the replies. I asked number 2 because I am definately concerned about permanently damaging myself and my endocrine system. Out of curiosity why is it not recommended to use an oral for a first cycle? I'm also doing a lot more research before I decide on anything. I know it's different for anyone but is there anything that an endocrinologist can test to determine what stage of development your endocrine system is in? Also wouldn't HCG be good to stack while running test-E to prevent some of this damage to my body? Again, thanks for all the help.

[The Bear 79]

You're too young, but....

W1-12 500mg test e. hcg 500iu. Arimidex .25mg eod

W15-16 nolva 40mg clomid 100mg
W16-17 nolca 20mg clomid 50mg

BRILLIANT.............."you shouldn't cycle..................but here's a cycle for you to follow".................FVCKING BRILLIANT

[The Bear 79]

Thanks for the replies. I asked number 2 because I am definately concerned about permanently damaging myself and my endocrine system. Out of curiosity why is it not recommended to use an oral for a first cycle? I'm also doing a lot more research before I decide on anything. I know it's different for anyone but is there anything that an endocrinologist can test to determine what stage of development your endocrine system is in? Also wouldn't HCG be good to stack while running test-E to prevent some of this damage to my body? Again, thanks for all the help.

Yes an Endocrinologist can tell you how far developed your Endocrine system is or isn't, but you should be more concerned about your HPTA (your hormone system) HCG will combat testicular atrophy but will do nothing to protect your HPTA from being shut down. You should wait until you're 25.

[anabolics_anonymous]

Hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis
How would hcg not assist in turning my HPTA back on if your testicles are part of the HPTA? Also how is waiting 5 years before taking anabolics going to change the way they affect my HPTA?

[songdog]

it gives it a chance to develope.

[The Bear 79]

Hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis
How would hcg not assist in turning my HPTA back on if your testicles are part of the HPTA? Also how is waiting 5 years before taking anabolics going to change the way they affect my HPTA?

Your Testicles can be "full size" but not functioning, which is exactly what HCG will do for you, it will stop Testicular atrophy but WILL NOT stop the shut down of your natural hormone production. Now, your HPTA will still shut down after the age of 25, but by that age your systems will be fully developed & the danger of not being able to recover your natural functions will be significantly less. In other words, if you wait until your systems are fully developed, you have a much better chance of making a full recovery after a cycle.

[swm1972]

BRILLIANT.............."you shouldn't cycle..................but here's a cycle for you to follow".................FVCKING BRILLIANT

I thought he answered very well and responsibly. He gave answers to questions that were asked. Gave excellent advice against starting this young and explained why.

Maybe your personal mission is to play mom to everyone under 25 considering a cycle. I bet his approach is far more effective at allowing someone like the OP to make an informed decision then yours.

[The Bear 79]

I thought he answered very well and responsibly. He gave answers to questions that were asked. Gave excellent advice against starting this young and explained why.

Maybe your personal mission is to play mom to everyone under 25 considering a cycle. I bet his approach is far more effective at allowing someone like the OP to make an informed decision then yours.

I couldn't care less what "you thought"................. And if you think my approach is ineffective, have a look at my post history, you will see SEVERAL kids that were talked out of cycling too early, not every time, but more times than not............It makes no sense to tell someone not to cycle & in the same breath, feed them a cycle,............that's just fvcking retarded.

[anabolics_anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification I really appreciate it. I posted here expecting criticism, but also expecting actual cycles with explanations. In the end it's my decision, no one on a random discussion board is going to make that large of an impact on my decision. However, even if I make the decision to wait a few years I still want to develop a better understanding of anabolics before I shoot them in my ass. So here are a few more questions:

1. You said, "your HPTA will still shut down after the age of 25, but by that age your systems will be fully developed & the danger of not being able to recover your natural functions will be significantly less" do you have an article which explains this? At 20 years old I'm pretty sure my HPTA/endocrine system is very close to being completely developed. I just want evidence backing up why it would be more difficult to reactivate my HPTA at 20 then 25.
2. Why was it suggested that I don't take an oral for a first-cycle? Some of the first-cycles on the stickied post had orals in them.
3. Is the first reply the best option for a first time cycle.

[DGHGM]

Question #2 Jasc answered in an earlier post. Fvck the orals, first cycle you're going to put on size, orals will cost you more both financially and physically with little to no extra lean muscle gains. 1 compound first time. I'm pretty sure there is something called "the young and steroids" on this forum (someone correct me if I'm wrong?). Read that.

[turborx7s]

I couldn't care less what "you thought"................. And if you think my approach is ineffective, have a look at my post history, you will see SEVERAL kids that were talked out of cycling too early, not every time, but more times than not............It makes no sense to tell someone not to cycle & in the same breath, feed them a cycle,............that's just fvcking retarded.

Agreed. Not to mention, at that age, 6 years lifting or not, there has GOT to be new ways to trick your body into new growth.

[JDBeretta]

Thanks for the clarification I really appreciate it. I posted here expecting criticism, but also expecting actual cycles with explanations. In the end it's my decision, no one on a random discussion board is going to make that large of an impact on my decision. However, even if I make the decision to wait a few years I still want to develop a better understanding of anabolics before I shoot them in my ass. So here are a few more questions:

1. You said, "your HPTA will still shut down after the age of 25, but by that age your systems will be fully developed & the danger of not being able to recover your natural functions will be significantly less" do you have an article which explains this? At 20 years old I'm pretty sure my HPTA/endocrine system is very close to being completely developed. I just want evidence backing up why it would be more difficult to reactivate my HPTA at 20 then 25.
2. Why was it suggested that I don't take an oral for a first-cycle? Some of the first-cycles on the stickied post had orals in them.
3. Is the first reply the best option for a first time cycle.

Why would your system be any different than the average person in terms of development fulfillment? Especially by 5 years. I'll try to find some supporting documentation on when your system is fully developed. And by using simple logic and common sense, one could safely assume that if you interrupt something while it's growing, it will not reach full potential.

It is not advisable for anyone at any age to take orals for a first cycle because a test-only cycle will yield plenty of results and a baseline to gauge the effectiveness of adding other compounds in the future.

I will not respond to the original cycle suggestion as I agree with the moral stance of what Bear posted.

[The Bear 79]

If you can get Marcus's attention, he will be able explain in greater detail what I've been trying to explain, but for now here's a good place to start..............http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...s#.T5cs1NlpV6E ........... http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...9#.T5ctUtlpV6E

[turborx7s]

I couldn't care less what "you thought"................. And if you think my approach is ineffective, have a look at my post history, you will see SEVERAL kids that were talked out of cycling too early, not every time, but more times than not............It makes no sense to tell someone not to cycle & in the same breath, feed them a cycle,............that's just fvcking retarded.

Agreed. Not to mention, at that age, 6 years lifting or not, there has GOT to be new ways to trick your body into new growth.

[swm1972]

I couldn't care less what "you thought"................. And if you think my approach is ineffective, have a look at my post history, you will see SEVERAL kids that were talked out of cycling too early, not every time, but more times than not............It makes no sense to tell someone not to cycle & in the same breath, feed them a cycle,............that's just fvcking retarded.

I don't care that you don't care. Aren't we both quite ****ing content with ourselves?

[swm1972]

If you can get Marcus's attention, he will be able explain in greater detail what I've been trying to explain, but for now here's a good place to start..............http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...s#.T5cs1NlpV6E ........... http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...9#.T5ctUtlpV6E

Internal links with NO SUPPORTING MEDICAL STUDIES are not evidence. Seriously that is the same link that comes up time and again. Never once has any scientific data been linked to that proves any of that article to be true. That post was made in 2008 for god sake. Anthony Roberts steroid profiles were made a couple years before that and we all know how reliable that information has stood the test of time. This is the only board where ancidotal evidence is give as infallible fact and everyone swallows it without without looking for something to back it up. I respect Marcus. Maybe he can weigh in here and explain where these opinions were formed and what he has to back it up.

But you, man you have been around a minuscule speck of time on this board and give out advise like your word is gospel. Maybe you have far more experience then the number of months you've been a member illustrates. But I've seen this routine way too many times before. Some guy reads thread after thread and becomes a self professed guru and spews no personal experience, and regurgitates the same damn thing people can find for themselves using the search function.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I could have sworn I read before you are one or two cycles into this lifestyle.

[The Bear 79]

Like I said, its a good place to start, I never said it was "scientific evidence or a medical study", however, if you had bothered to read Marcus's post, you would know that info came from an Endocrinologist, a doctor, a man that knows more about this subject than any of us. I have shared an abundance of personal experience, again, search my post history, in fact,I don't advise in matters that I have no personal experience with, & mean that literally, take Clomid for example, I have no experience with this compound, so any time someone asks me for advice pertaining to Clomid, I tell them they're gonna have to wait for someone that has experience with that compound, even though I know its chemical composition, proper effective dosing, & side effects, inside out, I wont advise on it because I've never used it. And lastly, you're wrong about my cycle experience & its not possible to come up with a different answer to the same questions asked day after day after day, so claiming someone is "regurgitating the same damn thing" is pretty fvcking ignorant considering the same questions beckon the same answers. I bet I could go through your post history & find several instances where you used the same answer time & time again...............would that be considered "regurgitating the same damn thing" or would that be answering the same old question with the same old answer.................

[swm1972]

Like I said, its a good place to start, I never said it was "scientific evidence or a medical study", however, if you had bothered to read Marcus's post, you would know that info came from an Endocrinologist, a doctor, a man that knows more about this subject than any of us. I have shared an abundance of personal experience, again, search my post history, in fact,I don't advise in matters that I have no personal experience with, & mean that literally, take Clomid for example, I have no experience with this compound, so any time someone asks me for advice pertaining to Clomid, I tell them they're gonna have to wait for someone that has experience with that compound, even though I know its chemical composition, proper effective dosing, & side effects, inside out, I wont advise on it because I've never used it. And lastly, you're wrong about my cycle experience & its not possible to come up with a different answer to the same questions asked day after day after day, so claiming someone is "regurgitating the same damn thing" is pretty fvcking ignorant considering the same questions beckon the same answers. I bet I could go through your post history & find several instances where you used the same answer time & time again...............would that be considered "regurgitating the same damn thing" or would that be answering the same old question with the same old answer.................

That would depend I guess on if that opinion mirrored the popular consensus or was one that rocked the boat somewhat. My opinions obviously aren't popular with some of you. I might have you confused with someone else. But everyone is constantly hard lining this 25 year old rule and every time the request is made for data it's skirted. I'm a proof is in the pudding kinda guy. Here say doesn't cut it for me. Where is this doctors research then? It has to be out there if it exists. I don't even question that to some degree the age/maturity thing matters. But 25 for development to finally be reaching maturation? Strikes me as an odd arbitrary number for some reason.

But I'd love to see studies that prove my concerns wrong. I've learned so much over the years about all of this and still wish to continue.

[The Bear 79]

Jesus man, how much more "proof can be in the pudding"?!?!? Pretty soon its gonna be all proof & no pudding........lol. Look at all guys that have cycled under the age of 25 & never made a full recovery or ANY recovery at all. Yes there are MANY people that never cycled until 25+ that are in the same predicament, but it seems for every 2 or 3 over 25 cyclers that got fvcked up, there are 10+ under 25 cyclers that got fvcked up. The conclusions theses doctors come to are based on years of schooling & research, they're not just guessing & absolutely ludicrous to insinuate that they are. They came to these conclusions for good reason, and I personally have faith in these conclusions. Let's look at religion for example, this a concept based entirely on a book filled with stories of past happenings & predicted future happenings, some people believe, some don't, there are certain instances of "proof" such as the "horseless carriage" (car) but no real scientific evidence that any of it is true, but people still believe...............

[songdog]

You're too young, but....

W1-12 500mg test e. hcg 500iu. Arimidex .25mg eod

W15-16 nolva 40mg clomid 100mg
W16-17 nolca 20mg clomid 50mg

This isnt the msg we are trying to send to the under age.just beacuse you dont care about your body and are under age yourself.We dont need to endorse under age cycling.

[swm1972]

Jesus man, how much more "proof can be in the pudding"?!?!? Pretty soon its gonna be all proof & no pudding........lol. Look at all guys that have cycled under the age of 25 & never made a full recovery or ANY recovery at all. Yes there are MANY people that never cycled until 25+ that are in the same predicament, but it seems for every 2 or 3 over 25 cyclers that got fvcked up, there are 10+ under 25 cyclers that got fvcked up. The conclusions theses doctors come to are based on years of schooling & research, they're not just guessing & absolutely ludicrous to insinuate that they are. They came to these conclusions for good reason, and I personally have faith in these conclusions. Let's look at religion for example, this a concept based entirely on a book filled with stories of past happenings & predicted future happenings, some people believe, some don't, there are certain instances of "proof" such as the "horseless carriage" (car) but no real scientific evidence that any of it is true, but people still believe...............

You know how many people never have cycled that end up on HRT? Could we hypothesis that because they all breathe oxygen they increased their risk? I was 34 on HRT. Never had done gear. I knew I had issues for years before that. As early as 28 or 29?? I believe some people misuse these substances and that absolutely leads to future permanent problems.

I requested something simple. The data. Facts. Research backing up the magical number 25 and all I get (once again) is ^ that.

[swm1972]

This isnt the msg we are trying to send to the under age.just beacuse you dont care about your body and are under age yourself.We dont need to endorse under age cycling.

I don't think we did anything. He did. I don't believe he spoke for anyone other then himself.

[anabolics_anonymous]

I'm still searching for some studies which show when the average male's endocrine system is fully developed. Also is it unquestionable that my natural testosterone or HPTA will be shut down from this cycle? Does anyone know of any articles which show how or why your HPTA is shut down from anabolics? I feel like it would not be very hard to recover from a cycle with such low dosages.

[OnTheSauce]

This isnt the msg we are trying to send to the under age.just beacuse you dont care about your body and are under age yourself.We dont need to endorse under age cycling.

People make their own choices. Its there body. Who am I to tell someone what they are allowed to do? Big reason I dislike my government. I gave my opinion hes too young but that doesn't mean he still won't go thru with it. Better to give advice on the safest way to do it versus him doing it anyway and improperly. Steroids are illegal because of people like you trying to dictate what other ppl do with their own life. Do I think cigarettes are harmful? Absolutely. Should they be illegal because of it? No. Same concept for the rule some members try to put on fellow members about advising young guys. It could absolutely hurt them but it shouldn't be against the rules to talk to them. And u personally attack me for it. Real mature.

[The Bear 79]

Steroids are illegal because of people like you trying to dictate what other ppl do with their own life.

LOL, yeah..........THAT'S why steroids are illegal.............lol, because of people trying detour young users, which for some reason you call dictating, I don't see anyone in command of anyone else here, ordering them not to cycle, all I see are warnings detour attempts...................yet ANOTHER brilliant post from you.

[The Bear 79]

Funny how its always the under 25's that try to swoop in to save the day, anything that suits their cause & justifies cycling too young.............

[OnTheSauce]

LOL, yeah..........THAT'S why steroids are illegal.............lol, because of people trying detour young users, which for some reason you call dictating, I don't see anyone in command of anyone else here, ordering them not to cycle, all I see are warnings detour attempts...................yet ANOTHER brilliant post from you.

Its the mind-set that because u don't think its something that should be done, nobody should be able to. If you think skydiving is dangerous should I not give people advice to use a parachute in case they go do it anyway? Btw these are analogies, you seemed confused.