Fully developed endocrine system.

**JDBeretta** · 04-24-2012, 08:20 PM

Can someone post a link or site a source where some evidence is given as to when a male's endocrine system is fully developed?

I looked for a while online and can't find anything.

I'm not sure if this is the right section to post in for this inquiry.

**sneakyhats** · 04-24-2012, 09:33 PM

am looking for the exact same thing, still nothing found.

**bigswoll** · 04-24-2012, 10:04 PM

Call privatemdlabs.com there's hundreds of test available if they offer it they'll tell u. There customer service is top notch

**JDBeretta** · 04-24-2012, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by bigswoll

Call privatemdlabs.com there's hundreds of test available if they offer it they'll tell u. There customer service is top notch

I just want to know when a typical male is fully developed. And supporting studies to prove it.

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by JDBeretta

Can someone post a link or site a source where some evidence is given as to when a male's endocrine system is fully developed?

I looked for a while online and can't find anything.

I'm not sure if this is the right section to post in for this inquiry.

I've often wondered where this often quoted age of 25 comes from. Other then internal links I've never received an answer. I've done google searches and didn't find anything. I'd guess that is because there probably isn't any science backing up these claims. People mature on different levels at different ages. No way in hell you can convince me the answer is 25. At the stroke of midnight on your 25th birthday something magical happens.....

Garbage. Until I see something scientific you won't see me spewing this as fact. If I'm giving advise you can bet your ass one of two things:

1) either I have personal experience on the matter at hand

Or

2) I have scientific facts behind me

I won't regurgitate 'facts' just because that is what everyone else believes. Once upon a time man believed the earth was the center of the universe. Didn't make it true.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-25-2012, 06:03 AM

the common phrase, waiting till at least the age of 25. waiting till 30 is better. This site doesnt want to get sued when a underage kid dies or causes great harm to himself.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-25-2012, 06:06 AM

or maybe it haas to do with people taking the time to reach their natural limit and learing how to lift and train before doing a drug that only really works if you have yoru shit in order.

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 06:14 AM

And those are both good reasons and noble causes. But throwing around 'evidence' with no scientific backing looks pretty suspect to me. It should look suspect to more people, but oddly enough....

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-25-2012, 06:34 AM

who says there is no backing on this? even if i PM u the published papers on this. U already sound like you have your mind made up already.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-25-2012, 06:35 AM

make a new thread in teh ar lounge ad ask "how many people cycled before 25 and are hrt now"

**0tolerance** · 04-25-2012, 06:42 AM

bodybycookiesandcake the website cannot be sued for an underage person using an illegal substance.

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by bodybycookiesandcake

who says there is no backing on this? even if i PM u the published papers on this. U already sound like you have your mind made up already.

Then let's see the published scientific studies. I've requested this before and received nothing but the same internal link. Don't pm them. Post them so everyone can see it.

I've tried searching and found nothing which is why I suspect there is no evidence to back it up. Enlighten me. Hell, I'd feel better knowing there was some evidence out there and that everyone wasn't basing this set in stone rule on a four + year old article that gave no scientific study data when published. It sounded like a reasonable theory, but fact has to have more then opinion to back it up.

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by bodybycookiesandcake

make a new thread in teh ar lounge ad ask "how many people cycled before 25 and are hrt now"

How many people that have never cycled end up HRT? How many 30 something's cycle and end up on HRT? To suggest there is a link between under 25 usage and HRT you'd have to have a control group that didn't use prior to 25, and maybe even another control group that didn't use at all. Then you'd compare percentages and ages when HRT became a necessity against rhe two or three groups. To just say people who use under 25 have ended up on HRT is suggesting a cause and effect relationship that isn't supported by anything scientific. I was on HRT before ever seeing a cycle. At age 34.

**lovbyts** · 04-25-2012, 08:15 AM

Would a scientific study really matter? There are plenty of scientific studies of the harmful, negative side effect of aas use but you are still going to do it, right? They are 1000s of scientific studies that show most all prescription medications have potential harmful side effects but most of us still use them, right?

I highly doubt there is anyone who has their mind set on using aas that it will really make a difference to. Just ask anyone 30+ if grew between 18 - 25 and most everyone will tell you yes. maybe only a little taller but most also filled out, got wider shoulders and ribcage. How much scientific proof do you need besides what is right in front of your face?

Bottom line you are going to do what you want to do so just be willing to accept the consequences and when things bad dont get upset when we say told you so or give you a bad time.

We have a lot of member who cycled before 25 who ended up on HRT. Controlled group? You can just become another statistic, OK? Use of aas before 25 is not going to be the reason 100% of the time but it seems rather high to those of us who have been here for a while.

**JDBeretta** · 04-25-2012, 08:27 AM

Just for clarity, I wasn't suggesting that I disagree with this theory.

It still makes sense to me that someone would be safer to use AAS at a point of full maturity rather than at a point where they may have some time to develop still.

**Brohim** · 04-25-2012, 10:27 AM

It is common sense that a male grows until his 20's. Your body is up-regulating hormones until around 25. So there is no need to take male hormones when your body is already up-regulating. Your body is still in the building phase. After that your body will start to down regulate hormones and you won't grow anymore. And your hormones will not be as active.

It doesn't take a Dr. to figure this out. It can be made by observation. And if you don't understand upregulation google it there are plenty of articles on it.

**JDBeretta** · 04-25-2012, 10:34 AM

Again, I'll say that I'm not in disagreement with this theory. I personally don't condone the use of AAS in guys that are younger than their mid-20s.

All I posted was a request for an article from medical journal, or for someone to site one, that confirms when ones endocrine system is fully developed.

I know what common sense and logic tell me, but I'd love to be able to substantiate what I strongly believe to guys that think it's bullshit.

**Times Roman** · 04-25-2012, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by JDBeretta

Can someone post a link or site a source where some evidence is given as to when a male's endocrine system is fully developed?

I looked for a while online and can't find anything.

I'm not sure if this is the right section to post in for this inquiry.

Some here say 25, but that's not exactly right. Everyone develops at different rates, which is why i will say mid twenties which is probably a little more accurate than a hard number like 25.

this is a good question, since i haven't thought about whether maturity can be tested or not. i'm really not sure what it could test, since you are really trying to test to see if development has "STOPPED", which is the absense of continued development.

Say you are 24 and your hormonal system is now fully developed. what test could you have taken at 23 that would have told you your system was still developing? You have all the same hormones at 23 as you do at 24. It may be possible to have a series of tests taken over a period of time? so let me think out loud for a moment.

say the benchmark test for "full development" is testosterone . just work with me for a second

so at 21 you blood test, and your serum levels come back A
22 they come back at 110% of A
at 23 they come back at 120% of A
at 24 at 122% of A
at 25 still at 122% of A

so maybe, now looking back, you might be able to say that my test levels peaked at 24, which is a good indicator my hormonal systyem is now fully developed.

Mates, i do not know if this is right or wrong, just thinking out loud. but it would seem to me that a single test wouuld be insufficient to determine if your system has fully matured.

make sense?

**Times Roman** · 04-25-2012, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Would a scientific study really matter? There are plenty of scientific studies of the harmful, negative side effect of aas use but you are still going to do it, right? They are 1000s of scientific studies that show most all prescription medications have potential harmful side effects but most of us still use them, right?

I highly doubt there is anyone who has their mind set on using aas that it will really make a difference to. Just ask anyone 30+ if grew between 18 - 25 and most everyone will tell you yes. maybe only a little taller but most also filled out, got wider shoulders and ribcage. How much scientific proof do you need besides what is right in front of your face?

Bottom line you are going to do what you want to do so just be willing to accept the consequences and when things bad dont get upset when we say told you so or give you a bad time.

We have a lot of member who cycled before 25 who ended up on HRT. Controlled group? You can just become another statistic, OK? Use of aas before 25 is not going to be the reason 100% of the time but it seems rather high to those of us who have been here for a while.

LB makes some sense here.

I'm apalled at the number of threads started here where a bloke says he just started TRT and only 26??? WTF????

let's get real serious here. 90% of the time, the bloke has low trt, not because of genetics, but becauuse they were fukking around with steroids as a kid.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-25-2012, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Would a scientific study really matter? There are plenty of scientific studies of the harmful, negative side effect of aas use but you are still going to do it, right? They are 1000s of scientific studies that show most all prescription medications have potential harmful side effects but most of us still use them, right?

I highly doubt there is anyone who has their mind set on using aas that it will really make a difference to. Just ask anyone 30+ if grew between 18 - 25 and most everyone will tell you yes. maybe only a little taller but most also filled out, got wider shoulders and ribcage. How much scientific proof do you need besides what is right in front of your face?

Bottom line you are going to do what you want to do so just be willing to accept the consequences and when things bad dont get upset when we say told you so or give you a bad time.

We have a lot of member who cycled before 25 who ended up on HRT. Controlled group? You can just become another statistic, OK? Use of aas before 25 is not going to be the reason 100% of the time but it seems rather high to those of us who have been here for a while.

this is teh long version of my opinion i didn't feel like typing out last night. GREAT POST

**JDBeretta** · 04-25-2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Would a scientific study really matter? There are plenty of scientific studies of the harmful, negative side effect of aas use but you are still going to do it, right? They are 1000s of scientific studies that show most all prescription medications have potential harmful side effects but most of us still use them, right?

I highly doubt there is anyone who has their mind set on using aas that it will really make a difference to. Just ask anyone 30+ if grew between 18 - 25 and most everyone will tell you yes. maybe only a little taller but most also filled out, got wider shoulders and ribcage. How much scientific proof do you need besides what is right in front of your face?

Bottom line you are going to do what you want to do so just be willing to accept the consequences and when things bad dont get upset when we say told you so or give you a bad time.

We have a lot of member who cycled before 25 who ended up on HRT. Controlled group? You can just become another statistic, OK? Use of aas before 25 is not going to be the reason 100% of the time but it seems rather high to those of us who have been here for a while.

Agreed. 100%.

Would just like to be able to post a link to the ones who are stubborn.

That's all.

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Would a scientific study really matter? There are plenty of scientific studies of the harmful, negative side effect of aas use but you are still going to do it, right? They are 1000s of scientific studies that show most all prescription medications have potential harmful side effects but most of us still use them, right?

I highly doubt there is anyone who has their mind set on using aas that it will really make a difference to. Just ask anyone 30+ if grew between 18 - 25 and most everyone will tell you yes. maybe only a little taller but most also filled out, got wider shoulders and ribcage. How much scientific proof do you need besides what is right in front of your face?

Bottom line you are going to do what you want to do so just be willing to accept the consequences and when things bad dont get upset when we say told you so or give you a bad time.

We have a lot of member who cycled before 25 who ended up on HRT. Controlled group? You can just become another statistic, OK? Use of aas before 25 is not going to be the reason 100% of the time but it seems rather high to those of us who have been here for a while.

What part of I am 40 years old and was on HRT at age 34 before ever touching steroids did you not understand?

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by JDBeretta

Just for clarity, I wasn't suggesting that I disagree with this theory.

It still makes sense to me that someone would be safer to use AAS at a point of full maturity rather than at a point where they may have some time to develop still.

See the thing is, I agree with that idea too. But 25? Maybe some of you develop slowly...

It has been proven that growth plates can accelerate and cause growth issues in youths using steroids . I googled endocrine system maturity and EVERY article I read suggested your endocrine system is matured at sexual maturity. So maybe something else completely unrelated is at work here. I'm sure the articles in question aren't considering our unique circumstances. But those are the studies I can find.

That said I'd still like to see studies if they exist.

**Simon1972** · 04-25-2012, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by bodybycookiesandcake

make a new thread in teh ar lounge ad ask "how many people cycled before 25 and are hrt now"

good idea- go for it Cookie!

**swm1972** · 04-25-2012, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Some here say 25, but that's not exactly right. Everyone develops at different rates, which is why i will say mid twenties which is probably a little more accurate than a hard number like 25.

this is a good question, since i haven't thought about whether maturity can be tested or not. i'm really not sure what it could test, since you are really trying to test to see if development has "STOPPED", which is the absense of continued development.

Say you are 24 and your hormonal system is now fully developed. what test could you have taken at 23 that would have told you your system was still developing? You have all the same hormones at 23 as you do at 24. It may be possible to have a series of tests taken over a period of time? so let me think out loud for a moment.

say the benchmark test for "full development" is testosterone . just work with me for a second

so at 21 you blood test, and your serum levels come back A
22 they come back at 110% of A
at 23 they come back at 120% of A
at 24 at 122% of A
at 25 still at 122% of A

so maybe, now looking back, you might be able to say that my test levels peaked at 24, which is a good indicator my hormonal systyem is now fully developed.

Mates, i do not know if this is right or wrong, just thinking out loud. but it would seem to me that a single test wouuld be insufficient to determine if your system has fully matured.

make sense?

This is exactly what I was hoping to find. A study exactly like you suggest. I make a request like that and get nothing but regurgitated 4 year old links. And then attitude because here say doesn't do it for me. Bro science ****ing galore.

I posted about control groups earlier comparing those under 25 users, over 25 users, and non users; that all ended up on HTR. That would allow accurately to establish a scientific link between cause and effect.

Several people here apparently don't give a shit about facts.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-26-2012, 08:26 AM

Its fully developed at the end of puberty, hows that for a change of direction

**JDBeretta** · 04-26-2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by bodybycookiesandcake

Its fully developed at the end of puberty, hows that for a change of direction

That's what a lot of the stuff I've been reading tends to point towards.

**jasc** · 04-26-2012, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by bodybycookiesandcake

Its fully developed at the end of puberty, hows that for a change of direction

Please support these claims with medical studies or actual evidence..

We don't need new ppl believing this to be fact until you have some proof.

**JDBeretta** · 04-26-2012, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by jasc

Please support these claims with medical studies or actual evidence..

We don't need new ppl believing this to be fact until you have some proof.

Definitely better to err on the side of caution, but I'd like to see the medical studies that say otherwise. It'd be nice to have a link (to a medical study) that we could slap on any thread that is posted by some kid thinking AAS is the way to go.

Again, as a disclaimer, I will say that I 100% agree with the mid-20s theory.

**Beroo** · 04-26-2012, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by jasc

Please support these claims with medical studies or actual evidence..

We don't need new ppl believing this to be fact until you have some proof.

You really can't be asking for studies. Look at how many teens ask for studies to show certain steroids will permanently shut done HPTA if there lets say 22. None are ever provided.

**swm1972** · 04-26-2012, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by bodybycookiesandcake

Its fully developed at the end of puberty, hows that for a change of direction

A quick search found articles that suggest puberty in men ends at 18 or 19. Not sure your intention was to take this argument in that direction.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-26-2012, 03:30 PM

only way to run a controlled studied n this is if they took two identical twins.

but regardless looks like puberty has more backing literature , looking moree into this.

**lovbyts** · 04-27-2012, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by swm1972

What part of I am 40 years old and was on HRT at age 34 before ever touching steroids did you not understand?

I never said there are no exceptions to the rule but it is the norm. Just like there are Obese people who have a thyroid problem but it's 1 in 10,000 or less, right?

Understand?

BTW there is a big difference between 34 & 24. There has also been a lot of discussion and some articles on the coloration of Low T and injury. It seems quite a few people have been diagnosed with Low T after getting in some type of accident or extreme illness. Still at 34 you may have just been one of the unlucky ones who's glands did not produce enough T but luckily it was caught early.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-27-2012, 12:40 AM

be on trt at 34 is better then being on in your early 20's ...

**big_ron** · 04-27-2012, 12:52 AM

Lets face it... if you do cycle after cycle... no matter what age you are, your probably going to end up on TRT sooner or later.

**Matt** · 04-27-2012, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by big_ron

Lets face it... if you do cycle after cycle... no matter what age you are, your probably going to end up on TRT sooner or later.

Correct....

**swm1972** · 04-27-2012, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

I never said there are no exceptions to the rule but it is the norm. Just like there are Obese people who have a thyroid problem but it's 1 in 10,000 or less, right?

Understand?

BTW there is a big difference between 34 & 24. There has also been a lot of discussion and some articles on the coloration of Low T and injury. It seems quite a few people have been diagnosed with Low T after getting in some type of accident or extreme illness. Still at 34 you may have just been one of the unlucky ones who's glands did not produce enough T but luckily it was caught early.

I'd love to see the real story (but only the users truly knows) that result in HRT at 24 years old. Maybe someone goes on cycle at 17-18. Ok. I'd believe it possible. Early 20's? Less likely I believe. But there is also the questions of level of usage. There is a difference between use and abuse. And I don't mean to start shit or point fingers. I know I've abused anabolics in the past. But just don't think the risk associated with these substances are as states. I belong to many boards. This is the only one with a population of 24 year olds on HRT. It's also the only board that has a scientifically unsupported hard line not before age 25 usage rule. I'd love to be able to compare IPs of users. I suspect a lot of these posts are bullshit posted to back of the opinions of some of the more vocal users.

I did a search awhile back on the young hrt threads. I saw a couple of examples of common words used and misspelled by this supposed low post count youth on HRT and one of the people accusing me of spreading dangerous misinformation because I doubt the 25y/o threshold for maturity of the Endo system. Wish I had admin level access for a day.

**bodybycookiesandcake** · 04-27-2012, 06:23 AM

1 cycle could shut a person down permanently, just like some guys dont run pct and their Lh bounces right back and their blood work balances at. There are exceptions always.

so if teh kid at 18-19 was unlucky enough that his shit shut off for good and he had to get on hrt, this happening at later in his life has a whole different impact then when he is still a teenager.

There is a serious of events why we should wait, reaching your genetic limit first is huge learning to lift to avoid injurys.. ask yates about his shoulder injuries he wish he knew better how to avoid as one example.

again if the endo systems finishes maping at puberty, we still dont know how it works unless we take two identical twins and run a control group. Im pretty sure growth plates still work into your 20's so not stunting natural growth could be teh sole reason to wait till u have truely stopped growing.