new cycle help please.

[Elias]

hello everybody. been off training for a long time due to a shoulders injuries, got into a fight and my shoulders ligaments were screwed. short story been off training for 2 years and i am back in training for a year now.
stats: i am 29 years old, 89kgs, all 6 packs visible i think about 10%bf, still got a little bit of low fat and water retention, this will be my second cycle.
my cycle will last for 12weeks

week 1-12: test prop: 100mg eod
week 1-12: letro:0.25 ed
week 6-12: winstrol ed.

should i use pregnyl??
might use gh for 8 weeks alo at 4iu eod.

pct: 3 days after my last shots: 5days of letro and 3 weeks of nolvadex: 40/30/20

any help is greatly appreciated and another question: can only one shot of test prop trigger gyno?
thx

[Capebuffalo]

Gh is for long term use. 8 weeks your wasting money. 8 months or a year mInimum run. I would stick with classic pct novla 40/20/20/20. Clomid 100/50/50/50

[Elias]

thanx a lot. what about my other questions any ides? pregnyl and only 1 shot can cause gyno?

[Elias]

guys i have both letroloze and arimidex on hand! the letro is 2.5mg how can i cut it to 0.25:S
i am thinkin of using arimidex instead! wut do u guys suggest please i need help

[BBrian]

I would use the Arimidex instead. Taking Letrozole every day will very likely destroy all of your estrogen, leaving you with reduced muscle gains and zero sexual ability. With those compounds and doses, I wouldn't take any more than 0.25mg of Arimidex every other day, or 0.5mg every 3 days. As for HCG (Pregnyl), it can only help, although I wouldn't say that it is an absolute must with this cycle. Just follow Capebuffalo's advice on a proper PCT and you should be perfectly fine.

[Elias]

I would use the Arimidex instead. Taking Letrozole every day will very likely destroy all of your estrogen, leaving you with reduced muscle gains and zero sexual ability. With those compounds and doses, I wouldn't take any more than 0.25mg of Arimidex every other day, or 0.5mg every 3 days. As for HCG (Pregnyl), it can only help, although I wouldn't say that it is an absolute must with this cycle. Just follow Capebuffalo's advice on a proper PCT and you should be perfectly fine.

thanx a lot!

[Turkish Juicer]

I wouldn't run short estered compounds for 12 weeks for various reasons;

1. You will turn your body into a human dartboard, this will not be a pleasant experience at all.

2. You will stop experiencing gains most likely around week 8.

3. It will be harder for you to recover from a 12 week cycle as opposed to an 8 week version of the same cycle.

4. You will be spending an unnecessary amount of cash for those extra vials and needles.

5. You will certainly need HCG to combat testicular atrophy on a 12 week cycle; whereas, you may get away with not using it at all if you run the same cycle for 8 weeks.

My proposed cycle would be like this:

Week 1-8: Test Prop 100mg EOD, Winstrol Depot 100mg EOD

This is what would one typically call a ''burst cycle'', meaning that you train very hard and diet-recovery are spot on throughout this relatively short period of time, making full use of the gear and aiming at experiencing the greatest amount of gains possible within this limited time frame.

PCT starts 4 days after your last injection of either compound, you should implement an overeating strategy throughout PCT and after in order to maintain the new muscle tissue.

Worst case scenario, you will gain just as much on this proposed 8 week cycle and recover faster, better once PCT kicks in.

As for the AI use during a cycle that includes Winstrol Depot, it will be a choice between estrogen related side effects and joints. This is very much of a situation that depends on the individual, as some experience unbearable joint pain when Winstrol and AI use are combined in a cycle, so I wouldn't be the one to speak for all.

[Elias]

i did my second injection of test prop today. i am feeling sore nipples sometimes. maybe i am being paranoid or maybe not. if its gyno shld they be sore all the time or from time to time? this is getting me paranoid:S

i wouldnt mind doing it for 8 weeks as u said, i like the idea. i already took winstrol and AI before and didnt suffer from joints pain.
what do u suggest for pct?? and if i am gona take arimidex i will still need to implement it in my pct but am lost on the dosing protocol.

[Razor]

Your taking way to much letro

[JonnyConcrete]

As said, the standard PCT of Nolva 40/40/20/20 and clomid 100/100/50/50 is fine.

[BBrian]

If you've only just injected your 2nd shot of test and you're feeling nipple pain, it's probably just from the porn you surfed today (joking). But seriously yes, you're just being paranoid. As for becoming a human dartboard, that's really just a matter of what you're comfortable with. Myself, I have no problems performing prop injections every day, and utilize many, many different injection sites. Also, needles aren't expensive enough to be a serious concern

[Elias]

Ok i dnt mind the injections too! Is it true that prop stop working after 8weeks?!? I am geting lost here. Help! Im only in my 2nd injection so i can tweak the cycle however i want
To hve the best gains.

[Turkish Juicer]

BBrian, thanks a lot of reducing my series of advices down to the price of needles and injection sites, great understanding and interpretation of my post on your behalf. I am sure this helped a whole a lot to the OP with the subject.

OP, I never said Test Prop will stop working after 8 weeks. Most users stop seeing any more gains usually at around week 8, which is called the growth plateau on gear. This has to do with the sensitivity and saturation of your androgen receptors. You cannot stay on the same compound for a prolonged time frame and expect to continue with your initial gains after several weeks into the same cycle. This is why many experienced users have recently switched from running 12-14 week cycles to 6-8 week burst cycles, as this subject has been discussed several times on the board.

The whole idea behind running a quality burst cycle is that the amount of your total gains are not merely determined by the compounds you use, dosing and length. It has a lot to do with genetics, diet, training regimen and pace of recovery. You are much more likely to grow to the limits within 8 weeks if your diet, training and recovery are spot on. The idea that you will continue to grow for an extra 4 weeks comes from an ill logic; the truth is you rather maintain your initial gains for an extra 4 weeks AT THE COST OF AN ADDITIONAL 4 WEEK LAG FOR YOUR HTPA before restarting your natty test, which will then be harder and take longer to recover.

Like I have said in my post above ''worst case scenario, you will gain just as much on this proposed 8 week cycle and recover faster, better once PCT kicks in.''

Any questions?

[Turkish Juicer]

6-Week or 12-week course of oxandrolone equally effective

If you give men, average age 72, a dose of 20 mg oxandrolone [structural formula shown below], they’ll get stronger and more muscular. During the first six weeks of the course the progression is clear to see. But if you get them to continue for another six weeks, the men gain little extra muscle mass or strength. Researchers at the University of Southern California published an article on the subject in 2005.

The researchers gave a group of about 20 men one tab of Oxandrin twice a day. Each tab contained 10 mg of anabolic steroid. A control group of about 10 men were given a placebo. None of the men did any training.

In an earlier experiment, the researchers had given older men oxandrolone for 12 weeks and discovered that after the course finished the subjects lost all the muscle mass they’d gained. [J Appl Physiol. 2004 Mar; 96(3): 1055-62.] In that study the test subjects didn’t train either, w hich probably explains why the men lost all the muscle mass and strength they’d gained.

The researchers fear that their results mean that men who want to keep their muscle mass up will have to use steroids continuously. Not such a good idea, they note. They also discovered that oxandrolone, which was considered to be safe, actually raised the men’s cholesterol levels and slightly increased their chance of developing prostate cancer.


Strength training is a safer way to build muscles, the researchers concluded. Maybe oxandrolone can play a role, however, but in shorter and therefore safer courses. But do these short courses work? That’s the question this study set out to answer.

The answer is ‘yes’. The table below summarises the changes in strength and body composition that the researchers recorded in their subjects after 6 and 12 weeks. There’s a clear gain after 6 weeks. But another 6 weeks of supplementation leads to hardly any extra gain.



The figure below shows the effect on lean body mass : bodyweight minus fat mass. Black bar: gain after 6 weeks; white bar: gain after 12 weeks.



The figure below shows the effect on the amount of weight at which the test subjects could do just 1 rep of the leg-press and the leg-curl.



"The most important finding of this study was that more than 90% of the gains in total lean body mass and skeletal muscle strength were achieved by study week 6", the researchers write.

That most gain is made during the first six weeks of a course was not a new finding for the researchers. Many doctors who supervise steroids users recommend short-duration courses. “After 4-6 weeks you don’t build up much extra muscle on steroids”, a doctor told us. “If you do continue with them, all you do is put extra strain on your body. It’s better to stop, let your body recover and make sure you retain as much as possible of the extra muscle mass you’ve gained.”

Source:J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2005 Dec; 60(12): 1586-92.

ergo-log

[Elias]

Turkish juicer i pm u! thx all for the help.

[BBrian]

Just to clarify from my previous post, Turkish's advice, as usual, is very accurate and intelligent. I just found those two little things regarding the cost of needles and injection frequency to be insignificant is all.