which HCG method is better???

[fanof]

which method is better for natural hormone recovery:

(A)hcg 500 iu e4d for the entire cycle and stop when pct starts

or

(B)blast hcg at high doses 3 weeks before the end of the cycle, dose e4d: 3000iu, 3000iu, 1500iu, 1000iu, 1000iu (total length is abou 3 weeks)

some say it is better to prevent testicular atrophy (method A) than to recover from it (method B). but surely being on hcg for so long would desensitize you from LH

[decaDump]

Good post. Im a bit confused myself. I've done HCG at the end of my cycles and haven't had any issues, but if I can do it throughout and minimize the shrinkage, I guess it would be best. Also, doesn't running HCG can accelerate gyno? I think I might've read that somewhere.

"It's not what you gain, it's what you maintain." dD

[Flier]

I vote for A!
And Decadump (what a name), u are right about the extra E conversion.

[Turkish Juicer]

Of course it is wiser to prevent testicular atrophy than to recover from it.

Also, HCG aromatizes when dosed over 500iu, meaning estrogen sides are likely to occur, another reason for not going up to crazy dosages such as 5000iu.

[kif]

I agree with Turkish, stick with plan A

[MickeyKnox]

i agree with A, but i don't agree with the 500iu e4d. i feel that 250iu twice wkly is a better protocol to ensure bloods are stable. and if you want to get really technical, 75iu ed is best. remember, the half life is about 33 hours.

[kelkel]

250 IU M-W-F, or above ^^. Keep it simple.

[depfife]

i do 250iu e4d THROUGHOUT cycle, then 500iu e3d during pct. I have read where lower doses, such as 250, will NOT desensitize you at that frequency. Seems to have always worked very well for me.

[ac guy]

Are HCG injectibles OTC?

[AD]

Are HCG injectibles OTC?

Prescription only. Or black market.

[Turkish Juicer]

i do 250iu e4d THROUGHOUT cycle, then 500iu e3d during pct. I have read where lower doses, such as 250, will NOT desensitize you at that frequency. Seems to have always worked very well for me.

HCG is not a PCT agent.

You are actually sabotaging your recovery to an extent when you continue with HCG injections during PCT...

[decaDump]

Of course it is wiser to prevent testicular atrophy than to recover from it.

Also, HCG aromatizes when dosed over 500iu, meaning estrogen sides are likely to occur, another reason for not going up to crazy dosages such as 5000iu.

I plan on doing Oral Tbol 50 or 60 mg ED with Test E 200mg every 10 days for 6 weeks and Nolva or Clomid for pct. Should I incorporate HCG throughout my tbol cycle weeks 1-6 or is it necessary being its tbol?

Thanks, guys.

dD

"It's not what you gain, it's what you maintain." dD

[Turkish Juicer]

I plan on doing Oral Tbol 50 or 60 mg ED with Test E 200mg every 10 days for 6 weeks and Nolva or Clomid for pct. Should I incorporate HCG throughout my tbol cycle weeks 1-6 or is it necessary being its tbol?

Thanks, guys.

dD

"It's not what you gain, it's what you maintain." dD

Bad idea.

Test E has an half life of 4-6 days, meaning that it has to be injected at the given dose within this time frame otherwise you are looking at a fvck up cycle.

Also, most users feel Test E kick in at around week 5, which is one week before your proposed cycle ends.

6 week cycles may not require HCG, but again this really depends on how the individual's body is responding to given compounds at given doses.

You are so not ready to plan your own cycle, continue to research before you do anything.

[decaDump]

Bad idea.

Test E has an half life of 4-6 days, meaning that it has to be injected at the given dose within this time frame otherwise you are looking at a fvck up cycle.

Also, most users feel Test E kick in at around week 5, which is one week before your proposed cycle ends.

6 week cycles may not require HCG, but again this really depends on how the individual's body is responding to given compounds at given doses.

You are so not ready to plan your own cycle, continue to research before you do anything.

Thanks for the response, TJ.

My reason for the test E is to prevent shutting down. Also, every thread I've read about tbol (while doing my research) taking test is recommended. If it were up to me, I wouldn't do test with tbol.

I'm not into long heavy cycles as I'm only into mild AAS now. What test & how should I stack tbol with, IF test is recommended?

Or, I can just do 50-60 mg of tbol for 6 weeks and use Nolvadex or Clomid for pct.

Thanks.

"It's not what you gain, it's what you maintain." dD

[Turkish Juicer]

You need Test as the base of your cycle if you are going to run an oral.

That being said, Sustanon 250 is about your best choice if you want to avoid frequent injections. You can get away with 1 injection a week due to its very long half life, growth will not be significant but blood levels will be relatively stable.

A better idea would be running Test Prop 100mg EOD for 6-8 weeks and run a mild PCT protocol 3 days after last pinning.

Tbol 50mg ED can be also present in the suggested cycle above, as you can run it throughout the cycle.

Arimidex 0.25mg EOD and HCG 250iu E3D are also strongly recommended.

[cb714]

#2 bro.

You dont want to desensitize yourself from a product that works so well. Save it for the last few weeks of cycle. It will make recovery a lot smoother and allow you to use over and over again without affecting LH.

[decaDump]

You need Test as the base of your cycle if you are going to run an oral.

That being said, Sustanon 250 is about your best choice if you want to avoid frequent injections. You can get away with 1 injection a week due to its very long half life, growth will not be significant but blood levels will be relatively stable.

A better idea would be running Test Prop 100mg EOD for 6-8 weeks and run a mild PCT protocol 3 days after last pinning.

Tbol 50mg ED can be also present in the suggested cycle above, as you can run it throughout the cycle.

Arimidex 0.25mg EOD and HCG 250iu E3D are also strongly recommended.

Thanks, TJ.

I appreciate your input. I'll prob go with Sust since it has less sides than Prop.

Btw... Is that you in your profile pic? If so, congrats.

"It's not what you gain, it's what you maintain." dD

[Turkish Juicer]

I'll prob go with Sust since it has less sides than Prop.

I never said that Sustanon has less sides than Prop.

Sides depend on dosing of a given compound, how your body responds to a particular compound, whether you have implemented a solid AI and HCG protocol throughout the cycle and etc.

FYI, you will have to inject the Prop either ED or EOD due to its short half life.

I still don't think that you have full grasp on cycling AAS and I will repeat my advice; you should do more research.

[Turkish Juicer]

#2 bro.

You dont want to desensitize yourself from a product that works so well. Save it for the last few weeks of cycle. It will make recovery a lot smoother and allow you to use over and over again without affecting LH.

HCG 250iu E3D at a 6-8 week duration will NOT desensitize one's receptors.

Do your extensive research first and keep your flawed advice to yourself ''bro''.

[cb714]

HCG 250iu E3D at a 6-8 week duration will NOT desensitize one's receptors.

Do your extensive research first and keep your flawed advice to yourself ''bro''.

I have... and Im giving this advice based on the assumption this is not going to be his only cycle and therefore not the only time he'll be running HCG for prolonged periods of time.

There are conflicting studies about HCG and whether they desensitize your testes or not. Some of these studies are pretty old, dating back to 1979.

All Im saying is it works, whether you do it throughout the cycle or just near the end. So why do it longer than you really have to?

oh... and one more thing Turkish Juicer... any advice based on long term use of HCG will be flawed considering there are no long term studies of HCG use. WIthout any conclusive data on long term effects we are all speculating and basing our advice on personal experience, which is all we can do for the moment.. "bro".

[JohnnyVegas]

Some anecdotal evidence for you on desensitization: I have been running 400iu twice a week (sometimes higher) for a year and a half and I have no sign of diminished effects.

Sometimes I use HCG knowing that it is getting old (and therefore degraded) and start to feel like a get slight atrophy, but that changes as soon as I get a fresh bottle.

[cb714]

Some anecdotal evidence for you on desensitization: I have been running 400iu twice a week (sometimes higher) for a year and a half and I have no sign of diminished effects.

Sometimes I use HCG knowing that it is getting old (and therefore degraded) and start to feel like a get slight atrophy, but that changes as soon as I get a fresh bottle.

That's actually good information to know JohnnyVegas. The more people that put their long term experience out there the better. I just kinda tend to take caution where long term studies have not really been done. Maybe it's just me being overly cautious.

I've used HCG as well and towards the end of cycle. It worked so well for me that I didnt go back on TRT afterwards... with blood tests to confirm levels. Since then Ive started another cycle and plan on running HCG in the next few weeks as I bring my cycle to end.

[Turkish Juicer]

I have... and Im giving this advice based on the assumption this is not going to be his only cycle and therefore not the only time he'll be running HCG for prolonged periods of time. I still don't see how someone who cycles 2 or 3 times a year with 3-4 months of break in between can use HCG for 6-8 weeks at a time and end up with saturated receptors that will desensitize HCG?

There are conflicting studies about HCG and whether they desensitize your testes or not. Some of these studies are pretty old, dating back to 1979. Yes, I am well aware of many of these research; however, dosing is a major determinant and I still don't see how running it for 6-8 weeks at a time would be considered prolonged as mentioned above...

All Im saying is it works, whether you do it throughout the cycle or just near the end. So why do it longer than you really have to?Because some people have their balls shrink as soon as 3-4 weeks into a cycle and why allow it to happen when you can actually prevent it from happening?

oh... and one more thing Turkish Juicer... any advice based on long term use of HCG will be flawed considering there are no long term studies of HCG use. WIthout any conclusive data on long term effects we are all speculating and basing our advice on personal experience, which is all we can do for the moment.. "bro". ''Bro'', I still can't dig how or why my receptors would be desensitized when I run HCG for 6-8 weeks at a time and then not touch it for another 3-4 months per se. I understand your objective approach to the subject but your understanding of receptor saturation and hence desensitization is a rhetoric that I don't tend to agree with.

.....

[kelkel]

Good thread guys. Good points/counter-points TJ and CB!

[cb714]

.....

Ok, since there is no concrete long term data to go off of and we're both giving our opinions I'll leave it at this and I'm done with this thread--- Our bodies adapt to pretty much anything we throw at it, there is no chemical or medication that continues to have the same effect as it did when you first started taking it. We see this all the time, with pain killers, insulin, anti-depressants, steroids, alcohol, other illegal drugs....shit even snake venom, if you wanna take it that far. Name one substance that when taken over time your body does not adapt to in some way or form? Why would HCG be any different? Biological organisms are not machines, they adapt... in the case of HCG, we just don't yet know how long it will take for that to happen. As JohnnyVegas mentioned above, he's been on it for 1.5 years straight and hasn't noticed any change but that's one person. As we have seen with AAS, everyone reacts differently to different things. I personally don't care if my nuts shrink while Im on cycle, does it really make a difference? I rather minimize my time taking it when the end result seems to be the same as someone taking it the entire cycle.

That's my opinion and I'll just leave it at that until HCG is studied a little more extensively in males.

[MickeyKnox]

great debate - intelligent and mature.

just want to add that there have been studies that do show that prolonged use of HCG results in testicular desensitization. however, dosage levels are in the range of 5000iu per wk or more. this have been documented in the Dr. Shippen HCG protocol and is available on the net.

here's an excerpt..

"Unfortunately, the vast majority of doctors are woefully ignorant about
the proper dosage for HCG. In fact, the AACE clinical guidelines call
for HCG dosages of 1000 to 2000 IU, two or three times a week.
Scientific studies have demonstrated that HCG dosage levels of about
5,000 IU per week or more administered long-term cause permanent damage
to the testicles (see Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230). These
studies have shown that such excessive HCG dosages taken long-term
result in testicular desensitization (to future stimulation by LH or
HCG). In other words, long-term, such excessive dosages of HCG will
result in primary hypogonadism!"

[JohnnyVegas]

However, dosage levels are in the range of 5000iu per wk or more.

Youch! That is a high dose. I know guys take high doses when they are recovering, but that is pretty short-term. Is there even a reason to take 5,000iu per week for extended periods of time?

[decaDump]

I never said that Sustanon has less sides than Prop.

Sides depend on dosing of a given compound, how your body responds to a particular compound, whether you have implemented a solid AI and HCG protocol throughout the cycle and etc. I totally agree.

FYI, you will have to inject the Prop either ED or EOD due to its short half life. I understand.

I still don't think that you have full grasp on cycling AAS and I will repeat my advice; you should do more research. That's why I'm here, amigo!

TJ,

Research is what I'm trying to do, thus the reason for my postings. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your advice.

I've taken Sustanon 250 in my previous cycles and I've had great results with little sides. I've heard people on Prop have more profound sides thus my reason for siding with Sust.

Now back to my original question... Should I or should I not stack test with my Tbol? If so, what and how? lol. Damn, I'm sounding redundant. Sorry for being a bore. It's just that all the friggin information I'm finding is so inconsistent!

[Turkish Juicer]

These studies have shown that such excessive HCG dosages taken long-term result in testicular desensitization (to future stimulation by LH or HCG).

This is exactly what I have been trying to stress all along...

[Turkish Juicer]

Should I or should I not stack test with my Tbol? If so, what and how? lol. Damn, I'm sounding redundant. Sorry for being a bore. It's just that all the friggin information I'm finding is so inconsistent!

I believe I have already answered this question above, here is a copy/paste from my own post earlier in this thread:

''You need Test as the base of your cycle if you are going to run an oral .

That being said, Sustanon 250 is about your best choice if you want to avoid frequent injections . You can get away with 1 injection a week due to its very long half life, growth will not be significant but blood levels will be relatively stable.''

As for stacking, 50mg of your proposed oral AAS ED along with 1 Sustanon 250 EW for 8 weeks will make a novice stack IMO. Again, 2 pinnings of Sustanon (500mg EW) is a better idea and will yield better results.

[MickeyKnox]

Youch! That is a high dose. I know guys take high doses when they are recovering, but that is pretty short-term. Is there even a reason to take 5,000iu per week for extended periods of time?

hey Johnny, the info in the excerpt i posted was discovered by docs who used the old guidelines of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (AACE) and who didn't really understand dosing protocols for HCG. but the point is WHAT harm is and can be caused by dosing large amounts of HCG for prolonged periods of time.

[Turkish Juicer]

Name one substance that when taken over time your body does not adapt to in some way or form?

THC.

It will get you just as stoned after 20 years of smoking it like it did your first time...

Ask any hippie, as they will confirm this.

I can also name other substances for the sake of it, but this example is kind of fun

[JohnnyVegas]

hey Johnny, the info in the excerpt i posted was discovered by docs who used the old guidelines of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (AACE) and who didn't really understand dosing protocols for HCG. but the point is WHAT harm is and can be caused by dosing large amounts of HCG for prolonged periods of time.

Yeah, I get that. It just made me wonder if there was a legitimate reason to run that high dose. I always wonder the same thing when rats develop tumors when exposed to artificial sweetener...and then we learn they were given the equivalent to 300 sodas a day. Thanks science guys, but what is the danger at realistic levels?

[MickeyKnox]

Yeah, I get that. It just made me wonder if there was a legitimate reason to run that high dose. I always wonder the same thing when rats develop tumors when exposed to artificial sweetener...and then we learn they were given the equivalent to 300 sodas a day. Thanks science guys, but what is the danger at realistic levels?

that's funny lol. i know eh? i think the key is, and always will be, moderation. but why anyone would dose hcg that high is a mystery to me too. but like you say, 'thanks science guys'..lol