why serms and not AIs

[fanof]

surely an ai would do a good job of preventing negative feed back from estro and boost test just as much as nolva or clomid

[eastonjock]

Theoretically, yes...both produce the effect (blocking estrogen's effects at the hypothalamus), but through different mechanisms. AIs work by inhibiting the enzyme that converts androgens to estrogen and Nolva/Clomid, block the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus. However, nothing works 100%. IMO, the best PCT is probably achieved by taking both an AI and Nolva/Clomid, although some might consider that to be overkill.

[StickyNicky]

Not a wise idea at all to use both an AI and SERM during PCT.

[eastonjock]

Could you elaborate why you think this it is not a good idea? If you are referring to possible estrogen spikes after using an AI and SERM together, in the reading I have done it seems like there is still alot of argument about this.

[eastonjock]

....especially if you taper the AI off slowly during the PCT.

[fanof]

easton jock i know how ai and serms work... just trying to figure out why you never hear of people running ai INSTEAD of serms

[StickyNicky]

Could you elaborate why you think this it is not a good idea? If you are referring to possible estrogen spikes after using an AI and SERM together, in the reading I have done it seems like there is still alot of argument about this.

From the knowledge I've gathered in my research it is just way too much estrogen suppression, among other negatives. You run AI during cycle but never stacked alongside two other SERMs during your PCT. However, after you finish your SERM PCT, it is an option to run a suicidal inhibitor for a few weeks to combat estrogen rebound from the SERMs.

[eastonjock]

Ah, sorry, good question...there are a couple reasons although I think there is some debate on these points...

1. There is some evidence that SERMS, especially Clomid, in addition to their estrogen receptor blocking activity, act as a direct stimulator of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, which gives additional help in regenerating endogenous testosterone levels over an AI.
2. Because everybody should be on an AI during cycle (see the excellent post by Swifto at the top of this forum), a SERM allows you to taper off the AI slowly during PCT to prevent possible estrogen rebound.

AI only PCT is certainly a viable option, especially for those who cannot tolerate clomid or nolva, due to sides, but most guys prefer using SERMs during PCT for the above reasons.

[jasc]

SERMs are better at stimulating LH n FSH

The theory behind no AI during pct is because you are not introducing exogenous test so there is no need inhibit aromatization. While we wanna keep estro low, we don't wanna drive it in to the ground

[eastonjock]

I know alot of guys on this board recommend using AI + SERM during PCT (see the unofficial how to PCT thread, PCT by Steroid .com threads in the PCT forum). The degree of estrogen suppression can affect lipid levels, so I think it is all about whether you personally can handle the drug combo. This is also why it is important to run blood work during PCT and adjust accordingly.

[eastonjock]

One reason to have an AI during PCT is to prevent rebound gyno, which is not an uncommon problem in SERM only PCT, since SERMS can cause inadvertant estrogen spikes. As far as the level estrogen suppression, it depends on the individual and should be monitored with bloodwork anyways. The AI can always be tapered off if necessary.

[StickyNicky]

One reason to have an AI during PCT is to prevent rebound gyno, which is not an uncommon problem in SERM only PCT, since SERMS can cause inadvertant estrogen spikes. As far as estrogen suppression, that should be monitored with bloodwork anyways.

I've always used PES Erase for this exact reason.

[eastonjock]

I've always used PES Erase for this exact reason.

Never tried that supplement, but if it works as well as an AI, that's great. The fewer dr*gs needed the better.

[eastonjock]

I know a lot of the VETs in the PCT forum recommend using both an AI and a SERM during PCT...maybe they can weigh in.

[fanof]

k got it, thanks guys..
should you taper down your serms to prevent rebound?

[StickyNicky]

k got it, thanks guys..
should you taper down your serms to prevent rebound?

Yes, absolutely.

[fanof]

what is a recommended tapering shedule?

[StickyNicky]

Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 100/100/50/50.
4 weeks. I guess if you really wanted to you could drag it on a little further reducing each more and more.

[StickyNicky]

Or like I tell people, on the 3rd week of pct or so, start supplementing with a suicidal AI to prevent estrogen rebound.