To use or not to use?

Stats
24yo, 5'11
185lbs at 15%bf

been lifting for 5 years on and off but only in the last year have i became nutritionally aware.. god that's almost 4 years wasted without having my diet in check, even though i made some gains (a solid 15lbs since i was ~160lbs when i started and was very skinny/lean)

Life Goal
190-195lbs at 10%bf

diet in check: i now count my calories and macros every day on myfitnesspal.com, i know how many calories i need to gain/lose 1lbs in 1-2 weeks, and i eat very healthy with lots of protein and carbs coming from whole foods

routine in check: just came off a PHAT routine, which was my most fulfilling bulk ever, i am now cutting back down the bodyfat which will probably bring me down to 175-180lbs, depending when i decide to bulk again

i am prone to hairloss, already lost a bunch, but i am on finasteride, minoxidil, nizoral shampoo, and healthy vitamins from my multi, and obviously i want to minimize this loss since i look horrible with a buzzcut/bald head

to reach my goals i will need to lose 10lbs bodyfat and gain 15-20lbs of lean muscle mass

here's the thing: i don't feel like working out another 5 years to do all this, my youth is slipping away since i'll be a quarter-century years old soon, and i'd like to be jacked during my remaining youth, but if i cycle, i know i will get hooked, and if i get bad side effects and then need to get off this AAS to which i'm hooked, it will suck

if you tell me, you're too young! i'll say ok fine
if you tell me, you're immature and your reasons aren't at the right place! alright please explain to me, smack me to reality
if you tell me, go back to the gym and bulk! ok, then at what point is it possible to reach 195lbs at a lean 9-10%bf naturally? how would i know my lean natural limit isnt 185lbs and that i actually can't reach my life goal?

need help on this life dilemma

Yes your are too young and you should wait the 5 years because that's the kinda time it take to build good quality lean muscle that your body can maintain. Now keep in mind you need to eat right to maintain it and you can't just quit the gym when you hit your goal. That's why i say maintain. Now the reasons for me saying this are because if you've only just got your diet and routine down in the last year then you have just started. With you hormone levels being what they are you WILL see results. It may take some time but fear not. If you stay on track you will not lose your youth as you stated but rather you will maintain it. Then when you hit 30 or do you'll feel great and could go ahead and cycle one through. This is all just my opinion but good luck.

Wow, some honesty And a willingness to listen?! Dude that doesn't happen very often around here.

So, what we are looking for is losing 9lbs of fat and gaining 14lbs of lbm.

Let's say 6-8 weeks to get to 10% then a super lean bulk of 18lbs and then a small cut of the 4lbs fat you gain on bulk to get to your first goal of 190@10%!

Your goals are quite realistic naturally. What's your time frame? 6-12months?

How about you post up your most recent bulking diet and my e a pic or 2?

thanks for your reply papa-g, i will take this into consideration, and i guess you're right when you say i've just started since my diet's been in check for the past year only, which sucks though cause i've been training for a long time now lol

actually this is a lie, it should read past ½ a year, the other half was spent dream bulking to 200lbs, lots of fat, then i spent summer not going to the gym, and dropped down to 170lbs, the pic is me as of last august/september, around 170 and 12% estimated (left)

on the right is a poor quality pic of me last week after a workout and contracting my abs, so may not be the best representing pic but that's what i'm playing with now, stats 186lbs at 15% estimated with self-performed 3 spot caliper test

(btw seems like my hair regimen is working haha) and those freakin pecs, they dont grow *sigh*

diet for last bulk
checking my logs, i had an average of 3500 calories, 420g carbs, 110g fats, 220g proteins
got my protein through eggs, chicken, beef, fish, and protein powder
got most fats from almonds, walnuts and olive oil
got carbs with oats, 12 grain bread, lots of rice, pasta, fruits, and dextrose+maltodextrin post-workout
multivitamin, tried to get vegetables but i'd be lazy on this, and was on creatine monohydrate

and 6-12 months? to pack on 15lbs lean mass? i thought it would take a couple years since i've been training for some time now, my time frame was hopefully to reach my goal in 1-2 years, also i tend to pack on fat easily, so im guessing the 14lbs muscle gain would come with more than 4lbs fat, unless i bulk veryy slowlyy, coming to think of it, 1lbs per month seems realistic, just seems so far away though, and the theory about "you gain less muscle each year you workout" is mind****ing me

You look like you have a solid base. Keep it up. I promise it will work out fine. You may never need a aas boost but from what I can tell if you keep doing what you are doing you'll be fine. And in a few years you can push through any plateaus u might hit.

Keep working on that diet mate and maybe add a few am cardio sessions each week.

Go for a steady lean bulk and maybe a bit further down the track once that diet and trainging is dialed in (maybe not too far off) you could look at doing a cycle. you seem to have your head screwed on and will listen to good advice, a bit more natural work and I personally dont see any issues with a cycle for you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wargen

thanks for your reply papa-g, i will take this into consideration, and i guess you're right when you say i've just started since my diet's been in check for the past year only, which sucks though cause i've been training for a long time now lol

actually this is a lie, it should read past ½ a year, the other half was spent dream bulking to 200lbs, lots of fat, then i spent summer not going to the gym, and dropped down to 170lbs, the pic is me as of last august/september, around 170 and 12% estimated (left)

on the right is a poor quality pic of me last week after a workout and contracting my abs, so may not be the best representing pic but that's what i'm playing with now, stats 186lbs at 15% estimated with self-performed 3 spot caliper test

(btw seems like my hair regimen is working haha) and those freakin pecs, they dont grow *sigh*

diet for last bulk
checking my logs, i had an average of 3500 calories, 420g carbs, 110g fats, 220g proteins
got my protein through eggs, chicken, beef, fish, and protein powder
got most fats from almonds, walnuts and olive oil
got carbs with oats, 12 grain bread, lots of rice, pasta, fruits, and dextrose+maltodextrin post-workout
multivitamin, tried to get vegetables but i'd be lazy on this, and was on creatine monohydrate

and 6-12 months? to pack on 15lbs lean mass? i thought it would take a couple years since i've been training for some time now, my time frame was hopefully to reach my goal in 1-2 years, also i tend to pack on fat easily, so im guessing the 14lbs muscle gain would come with more than 4lbs fat, unless i bulk veryy slowlyy, coming to think of it, 1lbs per month seems realistic, just seems so far away though, and the theory about "you gain less muscle each year you workout" is mind****ing me

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How accurate are the calipers??? I just got my first set...... Was curious if they are somewhat accurate???

24 isn't too young to cycle, I cycled @ 23 no sides, maintaned most gains good to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob87

How accurate are the calipers??? I just got my first set...... Was curious if they are somewhat accurate???

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depends on the caliper, some make it easy to read the results, while cheaper ones make it harder to read accurate results, and then it also depends on the test you run with it, you have multiple areas on your body to perform the test, and the majority of these tests require another person to measure them on you, so i guess it's accurate if you get a good caliper and do it on yourself or get someone else to do an extensive test on you

check out this website to see what tests you can do, where on your body to do it, and calculate your body fat
www.linear-software.com/online.html

the "Jackson/Pollock 3 Caliper Method" is the easiest to perform on yourself

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papa-g

You look like you have a solid base. Keep it up. I promise it will work out fine. And in a few years you can push through any plateaus u might hit.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gonzo6183

Go for a steady lean bulk and maybe a bit further down the track you could look at doing a cycle

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thanks guys, after my cut i guess i could go on an extended lean bulk another year or two natural, now that i'm more aware how to train and eat, and see what happens with that, and then judge if i want to hop on AAS, but you know how we all want our gains right now lol.. i'm just sad i spent more than 4 years working out to broscience with minimal gains

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Originally Posted by thex95

24 isn't too young to cycle, I cycled at 23 no sides, maintaned most gains good to go

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what scares me is not the age but mostly hairloss, the risk of needing a cycle every once in a while to keep my goal gains, resulting in massive hairloss since i'm already heading down that path, and i really want to prolong the life of my hair, but i really dont know how much hair i'd lose without trying it, and if on the other hand you tell me i could keep most gains from just one cycle, then it's more appealing, but from threads i've read, i'd lose the gains of that first cycle over time if i dont cycle again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob87

How accurate are the calipers??? I just got my first set...... Was curious if they are somewhat accurate???

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IMO not very accurate at all, I have had several full caliper tests and they generally put me around 3-4% lower than what I actually am (according to a dexa scan)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wargen

depends on the caliper, some make it easy to read the results, while cheaper ones make it harder to read accurate results, and then it also depends on the test you run with it, you have multiple areas on your body to perform the test, and the majority of these tests require another person to measure them on you, so i guess it's accurate if you get a good caliper and do it on yourself or get someone else to do an extensive test on you

check out this website to see what tests you can do, where on your body to do it, and calculate your body fat
www.linear-software.com/online.html

the "Jackson/Pollock 3 Caliper Method" is the easiest to perform on yourself

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Yeah I had just downloaded that software am in the middle of the 7 Site measure ment. Bought accu track fat track 2 calipers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gonzo6183

IMO not very accurate at all, I have had several full caliper tests and they generally put me around 3-4% lower than what I actually am (according to a dexa scan)

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Where do you get a Dexa Scan done? Im a west ozzie