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  1. #1
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Lack of Biochemical understanding

    I have a masters in exercise physiology and am working towards a PHD. I am surprised and intimidated to a degree by the degree of biochemical knowledge on this board. As a exercise physiologist i have a crude understanding of biochemistry and in terms of the endocrine system just a basic understanding of the bodies hormones but not a understanding of hormones and their interaction to foreign substances....since they dont really teach roids 101.


    So as a scientist looking to further my understanding can anyone refer me to a academic text that has its basis on science and not broscience. I have read William lwellwyn and am hesitant to take that as current dogmas since he has no academic presence and is a commercial writer.

    -DJ

  2. #2
    songdog's Avatar
    songdog is offline ARs TOP DOG ~ MONITOR ~
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    We just refer to Bonaparte if we get stuck on something

  3. #3
    Far from massive's Avatar
    Far from massive is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    I would look at replies that site medical references then look to those references and try to find errors in the application of the medical reference to the "bro-science". Then take time to reinterperet the data and seek to modify or draw your own conclusions.

    We have some very smart cookies on here, Swifto, Bonaparte etc. and on other sites you can find writings by supposed Dr's (no insult intended I just have never seen his credentials so I can neither confirm nor deny that he is a Dr.) so its up to you to find out who the smart guys are and then search out their writings and take what you can and discard, or take for what its worth what you are unable to validate.

    The problem is that even using tools like pub-med and citation matcher the amount of actual studies of the effects of large amounts of AAS etc. is very small. Furher complicating the matter is that instead of having a study group who is only using one quantified compound you have a study group using an unquantified amount of an assumed compound often alongside AI's, Slin, Growth, etc so the ability to conduct valid research is very tough even for the best trained minds. So as I see it, you kind of have to wade through what there is out there and look at those with some good knowlege of bro-science backed by medical references and compare that to what is actually published in medical publications and draw your own conclusions.

    Just like any other form of research, if you go back you will almost always find that medical opinion changes as time goes by. In a relatively new field like AAS usage with so little actual research done as well as all the problems inherint in doing research. IE: finding a control group, quantifying compounds used as well as all the problems of potency/purity/mislableing etc. it is very hard to get actual valid A-B data to work with.
    Last edited by Far from massive; 05-27-2012 at 08:03 AM.

  4. #4
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    Half of the knowledge that I've gained is empirical, based on users sharing their experiences. The other half came from reading medical/clinical studies. Again, that is a form of empirical learning. I've also tried to find material to increase my knowledge but the problem I found was that I couldn't make the bridge between theory and reality. Even when I talk to my doctor (I never reveal I'm cycling) he only thinks he knows about the affects and side affects of AAS. I do think the best form of education on AAS is to read the experience of knowledgeable members and read case studies. IMO

  5. #5
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Im hesitant to base knowledge on one person's experience to a substance. I think we all know by now we are not all created equally and our bodies react differently to different training stimuli and chemicals.

    Im just worried that with everyone quoting everyone else there may not be significant scientific proof.

    There has been no research done on AAS in America as a means for hypertrophy to the extent in which people on this board will use them. I don't know if research has been done in other areas of the world however like New Zealand and Australia.

    Also if no scientific studies have been done what are we basing these dosage cycles and pct cycles on?

    I don't mean to offend posters on here who think they are knowledgeable on the subject. It is just my nature to be skeptical in regards to things that may not have significant backing by the scientific community.

    Controlled substances because of their nature almost never get approved for human trials so most knowledge is first hand knowledge which is not good enough to be used as any sort of reference.

  6. #6
    Far from massive's Avatar
    Far from massive is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post
    Im hesitant to base knowledge on one person's experience to a substance. I think we all know by now we are not all created equally and our bodies react differently to different training stimuli and chemicals.

    Im just worried that with everyone quoting everyone else there may not be significant scientific proof.

    Dosages of specific steroids generally fall within a range that is well documented based on the cumulative experieces of many. Most everyone who is smart simply starts at the low end of these ranges and slowly moves upward to determine their own needs. This is basic stuff and not rocket science.

    There has been no research done on AAS in America as a means for hypertrophy to the extent in which people on this board will use them. I don't know if research has been done in other areas of the world however like New Zealand and Australia.

    There have been many studies done on the effects of steroid use in athletes both short and long term within the US as well as other countries, the tools cited in my post will search medical studies worldwide. The search tools are hosted by and were developed for the National Library of Medicine this is the largest repository of medical information in the world and when needed will search other databases worldwide ( most of the medical info is searchable freely, however fees will be incurred to see many full text articles.

    Also if no scientific studies have been done what are we basing these dosage cycles and pct cycles on?
    The cumulative experience of many. Keep in mind this sort of thing can be escapist or a head in sand way of thinking. Look how long it took the scientific community to realize that second hand smoke was harmful or that dumping pollution in the ocean could affect things. If you wait till there is scientic proof as opposed to making smart decisions based on the information at hand often the outcome will be poor.

    I don't mean to offend posters on here who think they are knowledgeable on the subject. It is just my nature to be skeptical in regards to things that may not have significant backing by the scientific community.

    No problem, but somethings you have to base your knowlege on probabilities otherwise you will fall far behind.


    Controlled substances because of their nature almost never get approved for human trials so most knowledge is first hand knowledge which is not good enough to be used as any sort of reference.

    A collaberation of first hand knowlege is often very useful, however if you are reluctant to base your research on this or anything else you knowlege on the subject is unlikely to increase.
    Last edited by Far from massive; 05-27-2012 at 10:25 AM.

  7. #7
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    I just want to clarify. You are saying studies have been done on steroids ? I'd say that observations were done amongst users who use steroids . Subjects would have to admit to using steroids and their use would not be consistent with the same subjects.


    The IRB would never approve a steroid study done however. I think this is something people need to know about and understand the difference.

  8. #8
    spywizard's Avatar
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    so unless someone who has been to a school listening to others that have been to school with no 1st hand knowledge or experience is more important or weighted in knowledge in your opinion..

    there are too many AIDS doctors and scientist that use these substances in order to keep people/subjects alive in order to further case studies and write papers for people..

    If you are studying for your phd, you would have better access/direct to these case studies..

    so good luck with that, you know what they say, those that can't do teach..
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  9. #9
    AnabolicBoy1981 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post



    I don't mean to offend posters on here who think they are knowledgeable on the subject. It is just my nature to be skeptical in regards to things that may not have significant backing by the scientific community.
    no offense but you sound like such a nerd. Im not flaming you but how many dudes in the scientific community are HUGE?

    So you only listen to book worms and ppl with Phd's....ok. And how many of thEM possess physiques that you admire? Heck, as example some of the MOST educated personal trainers are the fattest or lankiest. Look DJ...most of us aren't Dr.s and most of the data on steroids from medicine is from medical usage. But you can't doubt the efficacy of some of cycles outlined here. There is a method to our "madness".
    Steroids work, period. If your concrend about safety, that's a double edged swored. The poison is in the dose, and it's how you use it. Many of us follow our bloodwork and share results.
    If your looking for medical data that shows how well specific compounds worked together for muscle size, forget it. The few studies that show that in medicne used one compound.
    There are plenty of users here with expereince and knowledge, but as much as you learn, you really don't know till you try stuff on yourself. You can make an educated decision, but you will have to learn a little with your own body. If you wanna know exactly what will happen when you use certain things and can't use them if you dont know exactly how much muscle you gain, or what side effects you might expereince, then steroids are not for you. I say this because you strike me as a super anal retentive person academic type who paralyzes himself with overanalysis. You should definetly educate yourself, but realize that alot of the knowledge about how to use steroids comes from users and there expereinces mixed with some of the limited medical lit.

  10. #10
    AnabolicBoy1981 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post



    I don't mean to offend posters on here who think they are knowledgeable on the subject. It is just my nature to be skeptical in regards to things that may not have significant backing by the scientific community.
    no offense but you sound like such a nerd. Im not flaming you but how many dudes in the scientific community are HUGE?

    So you only listen to book worms and ppl with Phd's....ok. And how many of thEM possess physiques that you admire? Heck, as example some of the MOST educated personal trainers are the fattest or lankiest. Look DJ...most of us aren't Dr.s and most of the data on steroids from medicine is from medical usage. But you can't doubt the efficacy of some of cycles outlined here. There is a method to our "madness".
    Steroids work, period. If your concrend about safety, that's a double edged swored. The poison is in the dose, and it's how you use it. Many of us follow our bloodwork and share results.
    If your looking for medical data that shows how well specific compounds worked together for muscle size, forget it. The few studies that show that in medicne used one compound.
    There are plenty of users here with expereince and knowledge, but as much as you learn, you really don't know till you try stuff on yourself. You can make an educated decision, but you will have to learn a little with your own body. If you wanna know exactly what will happen when you use certain things and can't use them if you dont know exactly how much muscle you gain, or what side effects you might expereince, then steroids are not for you. I say this because you strike me as a super anal retentive person academic type who paralyzes himself with overanalysis. You should definetly educate yourself, but realize that alot of the knowledge about how to use steroids comes from users and there expereinces mixed with some of the limited medical lit.

  11. #11
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard View Post
    so unless someone who has been to a school listening to others that have been to school with no 1st hand knowledge or experience is more important or weighted in knowledge in your opinion..

    there are too many AIDS doctors and scientist that use these substances in order to keep people/subjects alive in order to further case studies and write papers for people..

    If you are studying for your phd, you would have better access/direct to these case studies..

    so good luck with that, you know what they say, those that can't do teach..
    Case study done on patients with aids is one thing. I would assume 99 percent of the people on this board are not aids patients.

    I am also not criticizing people with 1st hand knowledge , but its one thing to say "this guy at the gym told me do this cycle with pct and you will be fine" as oppose to "Dr. so so did a 5 year study cohort study on the effects of anabolic steroids as a means to achieve unnatural hypertrophy"

    Wouldn't it be safer and more efficient if there was a scientific method to this application. All I asked is where are people getting their info from so I can research as well.

  12. #12
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Anabolic Boy,

    Woudn't it be safer if the cycle and procedures you got came from someone who has a chemical understanding of this stuff rather than a dealer or fellow bodybuilder. I get my financial advice from my broker not from my butcher...know what im saying? I think this website is invaluable in terms of the experiences shared by fellow users and a good source of information. That being said, some of the things that I have read on here are quite disturbing and extremely dangerous. People using their bodies as a science experiment claiming steroids are healthy in proper dosages.

    Truth be told their have never been any long term studies done on the use of steroids as a performance enhancer and not as a medical need. So no one on here really knows the risks that may occur later on in life. While i am not of the "steroids should be illegal" doctrine, i do believe that the information being shared here needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


    AB your post could have been made without any personnel assessments of myself, nextime try to refrain a bit.

  13. #13
    oscarjones is offline Banned
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  14. #14
    Far from massive's Avatar
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    Did you really not realize that there was not a forum run by doctors with well documented studies on AAS usage, or think somehow you would help us by making us aware that you can't believe everything on a bulletin board, or did you just come here to debate and knock the information available here?

    I am sorry if I am wrong it just seems that you are not really asking anything rather just seeking to condemn what exists here.
    Last edited by Far from massive; 05-27-2012 at 02:32 PM.

  15. #15
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Far from massive View Post
    Did you really not realize that there was not a forum run by doctors with well documented studies on AAS usage, or think somehow you would help us by making us aware that you can't believe everything on a bulletin board, or did you just come here to debate and knock the information available here?

    I am sorry if I am wrong it just seems that you are not really asking anything rather just seeking to condemn what exists here.
    1. I am surprised at the info posters on here know. what I was asking for was a source for this info so i could research on my own and if the info was scientifically sound and proven.

    I don't doubt there are posters who think they have a fundamental understanding of aas, however when there are so many posters posting about their own cycles and philosophies the credible opinions get watered down. I was merely saying how dangerous that can be and how people need to proceed with caution before accepting advice online as acceptable.

    Im not trying to get on anyone's bad side but im sure as hell going to speak up when I see something on this site that I find troublesome that could potentially cause harm to someone.

    I believe that someone mentioned earlier to read studies on patients with aids and other catoblic diseases and I was referred to a book about aas from 1991. Those are definite starting grounds, however if someone could point me in the direction of a leading biochemist and their philosphy on aas I'd appreciate it. I assume most text is philosophical in nature and this is where posters can help by telling their personal experience?

    Like I said before, don't want to get on anyone's bad side but i just want to make sure the info i am getting is solid and hopefully based on research if possible

  16. #16
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Far from massive View Post
    Did you really not realize that there was not a forum run by doctors with well documented studies on AAS usage, or think somehow you would help us by making us aware that you can't believe everything on a bulletin board, or did you just come here to debate and knock the information available here?

    I am sorry if I am wrong it just seems that you are not really asking anything rather just seeking to condemn what exists here.
    1. I am surprised at the info posters on here know. what I was asking for was a source for this info so i could research on my own and if the info was scientifically sound and proven.

    I don't doubt there are posters who think they have a fundamental understanding of aas, however when there are so many posters posting about their own cycles and philosophies the credible opinions get watered down. I was merely saying how dangerous that can be and how people need to proceed with caution before accepting advice online as acceptable.

    Im not trying to get on anyone's bad side but im sure as hell going to speak up when I see something on this site that I find troublesome that could potentially cause harm to someone.

    I believe that someone mentioned earlier to read studies on patients with aids and other catoblic diseases and I was referred to a book about aas from 1991. Those are definite starting grounds, however if someone could point me in the direction of a leading biochemist and their philosphy on aas I'd appreciate it. I assume most text is philosophical in nature and this is where posters can help by telling their personal experience?

    Like I said before, don't want to get on anyone's bad side but i just want to make sure the info i am getting is solid and hopefully based on research if possible

  17. #17
    trschnei's Avatar
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    i REALLY dont like this guy. lol

  18. #18
    oscarjones is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post
    1. I am surprised at the info posters on here know. what I was asking for was a source for this info so i could research on my own and if the info was scientifically sound and proven.

    I don't doubt there are posters who think they have a fundamental understanding of aas, however when there are so many posters posting about their own cycles and philosophies the credible opinions get watered down. I was merely saying how dangerous that can be and how people need to proceed with caution before accepting advice online as acceptable.

    Im not trying to get on anyone's bad side but im sure as hell going to speak up when I see something on this site that I find troublesome that could potentially cause harm to someone.

    I believe that someone mentioned earlier to read studies on patients with aids and other catoblic diseases and I was referred to a book about aas from 1991. Those are definite starting grounds, however if someone could point me in the direction of a leading biochemist and their philosphy on aas I'd appreciate it. I assume most text is philosophical in nature and this is where posters can help by telling their personal experience?

    Like I said before, don't want to get on anyone's bad side but i just want to make sure the info i am getting is solid and hopefully based on research if possible
    re·search
    noun

    1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine.

    2. a particular instance or piece of research.
    verb (used without object)

    3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
    verb (used with object)

    4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly


    Ok, now that we settled that matter...

    Honestly man, you're asking questions in an online forum (one of many) dedicated to AAS and it's correlated uses. Now, a few knowledgeable members here have given you some responses to your otherwise repetitive and thrusting inquiries, yet you still persist.

    So, now that you have the definition of "research", please do us all a favor and attempt to use the methods listed above in your quest for answers about the now fashionable, mythical, biochemistry and it's anonymously founded association of non-existence!

    Seriously, if you really want to start with finding facts about biochemistry, stop fvcking thrusting your e-peen into our precious forum space, and drop the role of the coy martyr while actually DOING what it is you say you wish to do, which I thought was "research".

    Go to the TRT forum and read the stickies, and then read them again, and then read the other stickies in the rest of the forums, then go to your local Urologist or Endocrinologist and ask them for references and access to medical journals and then maybe even enroll in medical school.

    Have fun not being handed answers "researcher-boy-wonder".

  19. #19
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    Oscar, you do know there is a difference between going on a message board and reading tons of posts by people who have no credentials or scientific background and actual research right?

    Do you know how research is done at the academic level in america?

    My "boy wonder" tactics are only trying to provide a firm ground in which someone on this site can make an authoritative statement about the use of aas. Clearly you seem annoyed and antagonized by me somehow, maybe this is a side effect of your aas use. I hope you get that under control. You will find that people may start to like you once again.

  20. #20
    nooby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post
    Oscar, you do know there is a difference between going on a message board and reading tons of posts by people who have no credentials or scientific background and actual research right?

    Do you know how research is done at the academic level in america?

    My "boy wonder" tactics are only trying to provide a firm ground in which someone on this site can make an authoritative statement about the use of aas. Clearly you seem annoyed and antagonized by me somehow, maybe this is a side effect of your aas use. I hope you get that under control. You will find that people may start to like you once again.

    You're an idiot. You want case studies. Well everyone here is posting there very own case study. The research has never been done before, and will not be done, except by us. So if our methods are not up to your standards then kick rocks... bro.

  21. #21
    oscarjones is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post
    Oscar, you do know there is a difference between going on a message board and reading tons of posts by people who have no credentials or scientific background and actual research right?

    Do you know how research is done at the academic level in america?

    My "boy wonder" tactics are only trying to provide a firm ground in which someone on this site can make an authoritative statement about the use of aas. Clearly you seem annoyed and antagonized by me somehow, maybe this is a side effect of your aas use. I hope you get that under control. You will find that people may start to like you once again.
    I just feel like you're asking too many questions, and the same ones... over and over. There is no definitive answer to your question, no secret magical source of information that you'd deem "research worthy". That's the entire point of AAS and I could go into a conspiratorial rant, and I'll save it for another time.

    Maybe you can be the first to actually do a controlled study on AAS, and I guarantee you it'll be a waste of time and money because most of the conclusive evidence you'll discover will have already pretty much been figured out empirically. If you really want some detailed information, go into the cycle logs and look at BJJ's well kept journal, it's probably the most detailed I've seen yet on this forum.

    And no, AAS aren't what makes me antagonized, that's just life bro. Go get one.

  22. #22
    DiamondJim is offline New Member
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    this thread is done.

  23. #23
    Will-To-Power is offline New Member
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    Why don't you look for threads with blood work? There's plenty out there and they are the closest things you're gonna find to hard evidence.

  24. #24
    awms is offline Senior Member
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    Welcome to the real world haha Joking but isn't it a shock how little they really teach you in school? I was also taking a kin./exercise science degree but dropped out...not because of poor grades but rather because most of the info I was being taught was useless or out dated and the only classes that I felt really would help me in my field (strength and conditioning) were anatomy physiology and biomechanics, the rest was out dated and I has no use for it....so instead I took a massive risk and invested my time and money into working with top level strength coaches in the trenches, and took courses in the specific area that I felt would further me and my career. You university will have books in the library on the topic you are looking to learn more about....some might be out dated but they should give you a solid foundation, if you understand basic science you can buy many books online on the topic as well! a simple google search should lead you right to what you are looking for!

  25. #25
    DanB is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim
    this thread is done.
    What is your previous username here? You can parrot info, I don't argue that, but what can you bring to this forum with your ''superior knowledge'' you claim to have?.

    So far you have contributed fvckall and have 0 credibility

    Contribute or fvck off its that simple
    Last edited by DanB; 05-28-2012 at 12:17 PM.

  26. #26
    awms is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post
    Oscar, you do know there is a difference between going on a message board and reading tons of posts by people who have no credentials or scientific background and actual research right?

    Do you know how research is done at the academic level in america?

    My "boy wonder" tactics are only trying to provide a firm ground in which someone on this site can make an authoritative statement about the use of aas. Clearly you seem annoyed and antagonized by me somehow, maybe this is a side effect of your aas use. I hope you get that under control. You will find that people may start to like you once again.
    Most academic studies area joke...most studies are full of loose ends and have to many variables to really solidify them. For example there was a study that came out recently on red meat were they followed people over a 20 year period, half had red meat more then 6 times a week and the other half had red meat less then twice a week, the out come was that the people who had more red meat in their diets lived shorter lives or has more health problems....the problem with this study is that they did not track what else these people were eating, their life styles or habits ect ect....so the study is basically useless! red meat could mean a person eats a burger from mcdonalds, with fires and a large coke or it could mean they had grass fed beef, veggies, and water....they did not track this info there for the study means nothing! yet they released the study stating that "red meat is bad"....not all academic studies are legit and in fact most are a joke.

    That being said I would argue that a lot of the "steroid logs" and info in here is better then many of the academic studies we often see! there better documented that's for sure! at least in here we know the persons diet, training, age and back round, life styles habits, and there is a history of many people doing the same thing (example: 500mg test for 10-12 weeks)....I bet you could find over 1000 logs on this cycle alone in here if not more! yes academic studies have there place and no they are not all garbage...but don't discredit the info on this site! its very valuable!
    Last edited by awms; 05-28-2012 at 12:24 PM.

  27. #27
    Bobby B's Avatar
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    huhhhh?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondJim View Post
    I have a masters in exercise physiology and am working towards a PHD. I am surprised and intimidated to a degree by the degree of biochemical knowledge on this board. As a exercise physiologist i have a crude understanding of biochemistry and in terms of the endocrine system just a basic understanding of the bodies hormones but not a understanding of hormones and their interaction to foreign substances....since they dont really teach roids 101.


    So as a scientist looking to further my understanding can anyone refer me to a academic text that has its basis on science and not broscience. I have read William lwellwyn and am hesitant to take that as current dogmas since he has no academic presence and is a commercial writer.

    -DJ
    Try being the guy that doesnt know anything about biochemesty and trying to figure it out. I take chemestry next term and wasnt looking forward to it at first now I want to ace the class just so I can have a base to start from.

  28. #28
    Bonaparte's Avatar
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    Step 1: follow the posts of mods and vets. We won't steer you wrong.
    Step 2: go to pubmed and research old human studies on AAS from the 70s.

    If you still have questions, come back and ask them in a manner that isn't condescending.

    And what do you actually want to know? Because the resource you're looking for does not exist. If it did, do you think we'd be on here debating AAS-related science? No, we'd all be experts of the same opinion and forums like this one would be useless.
    Last edited by Bonaparte; 05-28-2012 at 04:19 PM.

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