Why do I keep hearing Nolva only PCT?

[Newgu123]

I'm curious why there's such a discrepancy between doing a Nolva only PCT and a Nolva AND Clomid PCT or just Clomid?

Is there any deep rooted facts to this or is it people having bad experiences with just Nolva or both, maybe some people lose lots of their gains? Clomid can be pretty nasty stuff if the sides hit, but I've also read Nolva is pretty rough in the long run for health. And its been shown that Nolva does decrease IGF-1 levels which would result in higher then normal cholesterol, but this shouldn't be an issue if your diet is in check and you are in fact exercising . I've also heard people say that Clomid won't recover natty test levels as "fully" but it does do it faster?

""The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150%...Why dont we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary.
Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary, which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I?m suggesting?and in fact, avoided in general?it?s simply not as good as Nolvadex.""

Any thoughts??

Anyone help out a curious noob?

[ata1979]

I've used both, many times, together and alone. I like Nolva better.

[Ares101]

Everything I have ever read about in this forum includes both clonus and Nolva for post cycle, and if the vets say to run both then that's what I will be doing.

[Newgu123]

Well thats exactly what I mean, whatever the vets say, and don't get me wrong I respect everything they say and the knowledge gained from them is massive and unmatched for anyone trying to get help or learn. But where does this "theory" of Clomid and Nolva being better? It has been studied and anyone to actually put the time into reading on the subject will find that mostly all the studies point to Nolva only being //best and best for you//.. So has it just become a "saftey net" so to speak that both is recommended?

Not trying to start any arguments guys. Just trying to find out where all this info is coming from? It's good to wonder where this stuff comes from

[DeadlyD]

as you stated clomid and nolvadex are both serms, but act in different ways, I think some people have adverse effects from clomid so they chose to discontinue it, I haven't had any issue using the pair, everyone is different.

[DeadlyD]

also nolva is a great drug with multiple uses ( combating gyno), and it seems to work for everybody, and gets recomended.

[cb714]

Because when taken together they are more effective in restoring your body back to normal than when taken alone.

[kelkel]

^^^Exactly. Similar but different and act synergistically.

[JohnnnyBlazzze]

In a nutshell, to my understanding, nolva helps with estrogen while clomid helps get your nuts working again...granted you arn't running any HCG.

[Newgu123]

In a nutshell, to my understanding, nolva helps with estrogen while clomid helps get your nuts working again...granted you arn't running any HCG.

False..
Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

The more and more I read I still get that Clomid is useless, and Nolva does a much better and faster job of recovering natty test.. Can you post some legit research links to why Clomid should even be used at all? I'm still curious

[Simon1972]

good info- what about using Nolva for increasing natty levels in guys with secondary hypogonadism? would temporary use stimulate the hypathalamus permanantly/semi permanantly if ones natty test levels are suppressed for any particular reason ( read hpta restart)

[Newgu123]

good info- what about using Nolva for increasing natty levels in guys with secondary hypogonadism? would temporary use stimulate the hypathalamus permanantly/semi permanantly if ones natty test levels are suppressed for any particular reason ( read hpta restart)

I can't remember where it was but I read a good article a while back and most of the stuff I came across said nolva could be substituted for clomid, and came with research showing how it was just as effective or better.

But my understanding of this has always been that Clomid and HCG (in worst cases) was the best way to go about it. But again, I have heard from other members that had great results with. and there is also a thread here a while back about a guy who tried running it for a month to increase natty test and it did the opposite.

I'll get back to you when I find the article

[Turkish Juicer]

False..
Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

The more and more I read I still get that Clomid is useless, and Nolva does a much better and faster job of recovering natty test.. Can you post some legit research links to why Clomid should even be used at all? I'm still curious

Hold your horses, newbie.

I don't have clue where you are getting all this info from but beware there is so much wrong in your post. There are several case studies about Clomid and how it drastically increases production of natural test even at low doses, as a matter of fact.

Pace and overall quality of hormonal restoration is only improved when Nolvadex and Clomid are used together, so there is no reason to bash one only because the other may work better on its own with less sides.

[Turkish Juicer]

But where does this "theory" of Clomid and Nolva being better? It has been studied and anyone to actually put the time into reading on the subject will find that mostly all the studies point to Nolva only being //best and best for you//.. So has it just become a "saftey net" so to speak that both is recommended?

It is not a theory.

Are you familiar with the world of endocrinology and an infamous expert named Dr. Michael Scally and his colleagues?

Have you ever, in your extensive research, come across with the published case studies of the doctors who belong to ''Program for Wellness Restoration'' (PoWeR), with a formidable history helping patients recover normal hormonal functioning following steroid therapy?

Nolvadex, Clomid and HCG are the three musketeers of hormonal recovery. Extend your research and you'll see why Clomid has its well deserved place.

[G Lock]

I think hes saying that why should you use clomid if his research is showing that nova is superior. I don't think hes stating that clomid doesn't work but hes asking what is the point of taking clomid when nova in his research has been shown to be superior.

[G Lock]

Pretty much I can drive a car or ride a bike, both work but I will definitly pick the car if its superior. Not saying the bike doesn't get you to point A to point B but if its true that Nova works better than what would be the point of taking clomid is what he is saying from what I understand?

[AD]

http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/...-works-in-men/

this is an accurate account of how clomid works. simple and interesting.

i personally like a clomid and nolva pct. 2 is better than 1.

[G Lock]

So if you care about your balls I guess clomid would be a choice for you ^^

[AD]

actually, i care enough about my ballz to use hcg on cycle. it helps to maintain the size of my ballz. when i start pct, i off the hcg and run both nolva and clomid. the normal (un-shrunken) balls will start producing natty test sooner than tiny ones(if no hcg was used).

[sxxen]

What about Torem guys? Heard good things about it.

[Turkish Juicer]

What about Torem guys? Heard good things about it.

Toremifene is the better choice. You can look at it as the newer, more improved, less toxic version of Nolvadex. People who have experimented with both compounds often report Tore to be the better choice.

... but, on a mg basis, it requires a much higher dose than Nolvadex (3-4 times) and this means a lot of $$$, which is one big reason why most juicers rather stay with Nolvadex.

You see the same scenario with AIs. Aromasin is the more advanced, newest generation AI which is safe for joints and does not reduce IGF-1 levels like Arimidex does, but you pay easily 3-4 times more for Aromasin (comparing pharm grades only and on mg basis), which is another reason why Arimidex persists its popularity.

[Newgu123]

Yes by blocking the estrogen receptors it allows for normal return and production of test. Sorry, I meant more in a sense that Clomid through stimulating the release of other hormones in turn stimulates the release of test. But also its been researched that Nolva alone WILL do a much better, faster job of it and at a much lower dose and less sides. And even on this forum it people saying "I prefer to add clomid" prefer being the big word and completely subjective and only based on preference to the individual.. I'm just wondering why? Nolva does the exact same things alone.

Nolva deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolva has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Nolva seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit

But again guys I'm not trying to argue or be a dickhead, I'm here to learn and Im just presenting what I know as to better learn. Sorry if Im coming off as a prick lol

[Turkish Juicer]

Study shows clomiphene is suitable for hormone therapy

Young men who produce too little testosterone may be better off using an anti-oestrogen like clomiphene citrate instead of synthetic testosterone. Endocrinologists at the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York came to this conclusion after analysing cases of 86 men who had tried out this alternative form of hormone therapy.

The big disadvantage to prescribing testosterone is clear: if men produce too little testosterone, usually their pituitary is producing too little LH, the hormone that stimulates the production of testosterone in the testes. And the production of LH is regulated by yet another hormone, GnRH.

The hypothalamus makes less GnRH as the receptors in the gland 'notice' more testosterone and its metabolites in the blood. And in particular, the female sex hormone estradiol, which is produced as testosterone is converted, reduces the secretion of GnRH.

So what happens if you give synthetic testosterone to a man who makes too little of his own testosterone? His testosterone production stops completely. So that's not an optimal solution.

An alternative to testosterone therapy is to administer an anti-oestrogen like clomiphene citrate, the active ingredient in Clomid [structural formula shown below]. The clomiphene molecule attaches itself to the estradiol receptor and prevents estradiol from doing its work. As a result, the hypothalamus produces more GnRH, the pituitary more LH and the testes produce more testosterone.

The men in the New York study were aged between 22 and 37. They were given clomiphene for an average of 19 months. Seventy percent of them took 25 mg every other day; the rest took 50 mg every other day.

The table below shows that the concentration of free testosterone rose by more than a factor of 5 as a result of the clomiphene administration. The men's estradiol levels also rose, but none of them started to form breasts. It would have been strange if they had done from using clomiphene.

Attachment 123483

The men reported that they felt better when asked the same questions that doctors usually ask of patients who have had testosterone therapy. In the tables above, where the P is less than 0.05, the effects are statistically significant. The effects on the men's sports performance were strongest.

"Clomiphene citrate is an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation therapy in hypogonadal men", the researchers conclude. "Clomiphene citrate therapy has a role to play in the testosterone deficient man and should be incorporated into the clinician-patient discussion."

Source: BJU Int. 2011 Nov 1. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-410X.2011.10702.x. [Epub ahead of print].

ergo-log

[Turkish Juicer]

Clomid quadrupled testosterone level of over-trained runner

A relatively modest dose of clomid – full name clomiphene citrate – quadrupled the amount of testosterone in the body of an endurance athlete, who had wrecked his hormone system by over training. Endocrinologists at the University of New Mexico described what happened in a case study published twelve years ago in Fertility & Sterility.

The combination of endurance sports and over training spells disaster for sex hormone production. One of the most important reasons for this is that over training causes the hypothalamus in the brain to stop producing the master hormone GnRH. GnRH stimulates the production of LH and FSH in the pituitary. These are two hormones that stimulate the Leydig cells to produce more testosterone.

Anti-oestrogens increase the production of GnRH. The more oestrogens there are in the body, the less active the hypothalamus becomes, and the lower the amount of oestrogens, the more active it becomes. An anti-oestrogen like clomid blocks the oestrogen receptor. If you take clomid, oestrogens do continue to circulate in your body, but the cells don't notice them.

The researchers decided to apply this knowledge to a 29-year-old man who showed signs of serious over training. The man was 1.70 metres tall and weighed only 52 kg, but as a result of exercise had developed stress fractures in his pelvis. He had been running between 80 and 140 km a week since he was fifteen. For most people running is good for their bones, but things turned out differently for this guy. He was suffering from osteoporosis.

He’d also had sexual problems since the age of twenty: he’d had increasing trouble getting an erection.

When the doctors tested his blood, they discovered that the man’s testes were producing too little testosterone. His total testosterone level was 4.5 nmol/L. A normal level for men is between 12.5 and 34.3 nmol/L. The man’s free testosterone level was 9.0 pmol/L. The normal level for this is 45.0 to 138.7 pmol/L. The man’s LH and FSH levels were just within the normal limits, but were on the low side.

The doctors gave the guy 50 mg clomid daily. The graphs below show that as a result his testosterone level rose after week 0 – the start of the clomid therapy – by a factor of four. If you calculate generously it’s a factor of five.



...

Source: Fertil Steril. 1997 Apr;67(4):783-5.

ergo-log

[Turkish Juicer]

Case study: clomid normalises bodybuilder’s hormone levels

In 1995 a second-year medical student scored a scientific first. Carol Bickelman, still studying at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine, published in the Western Journal of Medicine the first medical study that described how a chemical bodybuilder restored his hormone levels that had dropped after a heavy course of steroids,by using the anti-oestrogen fertility medicine clomiphene citrate

The competitive bodybuilder in Bickelman’s study was 29 and had just finished an 8-month long course of steroids. He had used 1500-1800 mg testosterone cypionate per week and 80 mg oxymetholone per day. [Strange dose for oxy. Maybe it was oxandrolone? - Ed.] After his steroids course the guy was impotent, and treated this by taking a four-week course of hCG injections – to no effect.

After about a year the bodybuilder was still suffering from impotence, and he went to see a doctor. The doctor noted that the man was muscular, that his testicles were small [volume: 10 ml] and that he had 2 cm gynos around his nipples.

The man’s LH and FSH production was low, as was his concentration of free testosterone. The doctors prescribed 50 mg clomid daily. It didn’t help much. He had a morning erection, but was still impotent. Only when the bodybuilder doubled the dose to 100 mg clomid/day was he capable of daily sex after a month. His testicles remained small, but his hormone levels improved.



....

Source: West J Med. 1995 February; 162(2): 158–160.

ergo-log

[Turkish Juicer]

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

QUESTION: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

ANSWER: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

Dr. Michael Scally

[Turkish Juicer]

Newgu123,

Are we clear on Clomid or you do you think you are in need of more? Because I have got more...

[jasc]

Toremifene is the better choice. You can look at it as the newer, more improved, less toxic version of Nolvadex. People who have experimented with both compounds often report Tore to be the better choice.

... but, on a mg basis, it requires a much higher dose than Nolvadex (3-4 times) and this means a lot of $$$, which is one big reason why most juicers rather stay with Nolvadex.

You peaked my curiosity here... Why substitute Torem for Nolva? I have never seen this before.. I have always seen and practiced substituting Torem for Clomid n running a Torem/Nolva pct.

[JohnnyVegas]

Great thread. It almost makes me wish I did PCT...almost.

But seriously, I enjoyed reading all that. The parts of it I understood, anyway.

[Turkish Juicer]

You peaked my curiosity here... Why substitute Torem for Nolva? I have never seen this before.. I have always seen and practiced substituting Torem for Clomid n running a Torem/Nolva pct.

Good question.

When I was looking for a Nolvadex substitute in the recent past, I came across with a few human studies where the two compounds were directly compared regarding boosting of natural test and hepatotoxicity, Toremifene seemed to work a bit better (at much higher doses, of course) with significantly less hepatatoxicity, in spite of the high dosing. On top of this, I started talking to people who have substituted Tore with Nolva and got all positive feedback, hence decided to give it a shot.

I don't get sides from running 50-100mg of Clomid ED for 4 weeks and I have seen it work when I ran it alone in the past, which is why I decided to substitute Nolva with Tore, not Clomid.

In sum, I did what worked for me the best.

[Newgu123]

Question answered, thanks Turkish Juicer. Some pretty solid info, thanks for the actually references and not just "because it is"

[Turkish Juicer]

^^^ It is my pleasure