help with nutrition with aas

What is the best way of eating on cycle. I've read a few different theories. Some say just to stick to your normal bulk calories and constantly monitor mass gains and adjust througout based on the changing tdee due to increase in mass. Then i've read others say to eat the calories to suit the size you want to be, (wouldnt this cause some fat inrease). I'm only reseaecing at present but i'm a bit confused with it when it comes to diet in conjunction with aas.

Also could someone llease explain to me or provide me with a good link which explains the bodies state when coming off cycle and the requirement to eat more and the function this serves? I'm pretty sure many guys lose a lot of their gains due to this oversight.

check out our nutrition section here

Diet is the foundation to how you want to look, whether you are on AAS or not. You can be on gear but if your diet is crap you're pretty much wasting your time and money. When you're coming off cycle your body is reverting back to its natural state, eating more will help maintain the gains you made while you were on cycle. I've seen numerous amounts of people try to cut when they go into PCT and just crap there gains away.

Like gixxer stated, jump in the nutrition section and get your diet sorted out before you begin to think about cycling.

Thanks guys but my diet is good running natural, i've already checked that through.

My question perhaps wasnt clear enough but i want to know how the addition of aas alters things?

Should tdee and lbm gains be monitored andfjusted in exactly the same way as it would be when running natural or is it a case of eating 1000s of calories more from the outset in an attempt to 'eat for the size you want to be'?

Also when you say coming off cycle to eat more. How much more are we talking? Lets say on the last week of a cycle im eating 500 cals above on cycle maintenance. How much should this approxinately increase by coming off cycle?

Ok lets say you weigh 180 and after your cycle you weigh 200.You must eat like a 200lb guy or you will lose your gains.

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Originally Posted by songdog

Ok lets say you weigh 180 and after your cycle you weigh 200.You must eat like a 200lb guy or you will lose your gains.

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x2.

Yes, muscles require maintenance. Once you have them, gotta keep eating or they go away.

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Originally Posted by songdog

Ok lets say you weigh 180 and after your cycle you weigh 200.You must eat like a 200lb guy or you will lose your gains.

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So is this to say that on cycle you dont need to be eating like a 200lb guy to be the 200lbs that youve reached using aas? I.e everyrhing you gain using aas requires less calories than is required naturally to reach that same point? So for example the maintenance caloeies of the 180lb guy natural combined with aas could get the natural guy to 200lb however when they are removed then the calories must be increased again to suit a 200lb natural body?

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Originally Posted by gonnagethuge

So is this to say that on cycle you dont need to be eating like a 200lb guy to be the 200lbs that youve reached using aas? I.e everyrhing you gain using aas requires less calories than is required naturally to reach that same point? So for example the maintenance caloeies of the 180lb guy natural combined with aas could get the natural guy to 200lb however when they are removed then the calories must be increased again to suit a 200lb natural body?

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To get there you need the extra food man.

Post up your diet or planned diet in terms of grams of each- protein:carbs:fat

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Originally Posted by cb714

To get there you need the extra food man.

Post up your diet or planned diet in terms of grams of each- protein:carbs:fat

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Extra food at what stage though? For example you said coming off cycle to increase cals to eat for the 200lbs you weigh. Well what does this mean that on cycle you were eating less than what it takes for a 200lb man?

Well like id said previously, i'm only researching and trying to understand. Im not doing a cycle i just want to know the theory and science.

But anyway heres my diet.

Meal 1.
oats
Cottage cheese
Pritein blend

2.
Protein blend
Oats

3.
Chicken breast
Brown rice

4.
Oats
Pritein blend

5.
Brown rice or dweet potato
Any pritein source in correct macro range ie fish, chicken beef

6.
Cottage cheese
peanut butter
Protein blend

Total cals 2600
40/40/20 macro split

Brocolli is also included in 2 of these meals.

seems like you love protein shakes. you should try to get more of your protein from real food like meat. chicken, beef, pork, tuna, ... anything.

carbo also looks really low imo.

you counting your calories right? better bump that to 3000cal at least.

My understanding of your question is this....

To bulk you eat around 500 cals above your maintenance as you gain weight throughout your cycle your maintenance cals will increase there you must increase your cals to continue gaining at the same pace throughout your entire cycle.

I might be off a lil as I'm still learning but that is my understanding.

As mentioned, you will get a lot more views and opinions if you post this in the Nutrition Section. I can tell you that your diet is off.

I’ve previously posted my diet in the diet section and I was told that my food choices were excellent and those guys helped me out with understanding tdee etc. There’s not a lot I can do with regards to the two protein shakes during the day due to work. The advice at the nutrition section was that this is fine so long as a blend is used along with some oats to make it more like a meal. I’m open to any other suggestions you may have and why my diet is off? Also I have under 130lbs lbm at 5ft 7.5, my tdee is 2100cals hence why i’m running 2600 at present and gaining some fat. Do you really think I should be upping this to 3000? Remember I’m only really just asking the question in relation to diet alongside aas to research these things in advance but I will take on board any advice with my diet for sure.

I’ve posted here as the guys in the diet section tend to discuss dieting natty, whereas I thought this would be a better question to ask in the aas section.

Bob, you are indeed interpreting what I asked correctly, so you are saying the process is just the same i.e monitoring changes in weight and adapting calories to suit to continually gain?

However, this all being said, I still come back to my original question –The fact that you have to increase calories at the end of a cycle to match the tdee of the weight you would now be at…..does this mean that less calories were required to reach that weight than what would be required to hit that weight naturally?

Take me as an example. My current lbm is around 130lbs if I eat maintenance cals of 2100 just now then I stay at that weight. If I add aas to this and run it for 10-12 weeks I will gain on this right? Taking me to a bodyweight that 2100 cals wouldn’t be able to sustain otherwise? And that is why when I come off I must eat more to hold onto that new weight without aas assistance? Is this correct?

My diet thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=#.T8YDrKO3PJs

I thought my diet was good. Any suggestions for change welcome.

i am quite certain that you'll have to eat more to grow, whether on the juice or not. if you eat at maintenance, even with roids, you'll not put on much weight. your bf% may drop and lean mass may increase, but actual weight may/may not go up. and when you eat above tdee and start growing, your tdee changes. and your previously bulking diet has become your new maintenance diet. to grow further, you'll need to eat even more.

but bear in mind that all the formulas in the world are only estimates. looking at the scale and looking at the mirror and using skin-fold calipers will tell you a better story with regards to your current diet. this will give you your true tdee, which may be different from the calculated one.

i don't know your current weight and bf%. but i think as you gain weight and muscle mass, a little gain in fat is inevitable. it is due to the overall anabolic environment in your body. when you're still natty, try to keep a clean diet and not go too much over your true tdee (based on experience, not just formula). but when on the juice, with a good training program, you can afford to eat more, and keep eating more and more as you grow.

Hey asiandude Thanks for taking the time to write that. It helps a bit with my question. I did oversimplify it by saying eat at maintenance to try and help get my point across. I think what you are saying is what I am thinking anyway. Whether eating at maintenance or at a calorie surplus (more likely) Aas will better utilise the nutrients than it normally would creating overall gains in lean body mass either way. However when coming off aas the calories need to be increased in order to compensate for the nutrient portioning being less effective.

So for example at the end of an aas cycle a person may be eating 3500 cals and making lean gains and weigh in at 200lbs. However taking the aas away at the end of his cycle this 3500cals will not be enough to keep that person at 200lbs therefore may need to bump the calories to 4000 to assist in maintaining/increasing this 200lbs naturally? Would this be correct?

And again back to my original question, would calories just be monitored and adjusted to suit periodically throughout the 10-12 weeks based on an ever increasing tdee. Or would it just be a case of as some seem to say ‘eating to be the weight you want to be’ right from the outset?

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Originally Posted by gonnagethuge

So for example at the end of an aas cycle a person may be eating 3500 cals and making lean gains and weigh in at 200lbs. However taking the aas away at the end of his cycle this 3500cals will not be enough to keep that person at 200lbs therefore may need to bump the calories to 4000 to assist in maintaining/increasing this 200lbs naturally? Would this be correct?

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I personally believe that your tdee is the same whether you're on gear or not. So at the end of your cycle, if you're eating 3500 to maintain 200lbs, you'll still just need 3500cal even when not on gear. But immediately coming off a cycle, you are in a catabolic state due to falling test level. Some people recommend eating even more during pct to counter this. More food roughly = more anabolic. But bottomline, your maintenance cal did not change.

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Originally Posted by gonnagethuge

And again back to my original question, would calories just be monitored and adjusted to suit periodically throughout the 10-12 weeks based on an ever increasing tdee. Or would it just be a case of as some seem to say ‘eating to be the weight you want to be’ right from the outset?

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I believe both ways will work.

But the first way, you risk underestimating you calorie needed to grow. May end up eating too little for 1 or 2 wks in the whole cycle, resulting in slightly lower than max potential.

Second way, you will be eating too much cal in the beginning of the cycle cos you're not 200lbs yet. You may put on some fat in the first few wks. After the cycle kicks in, all the cals will be put to good use and you will grow to max potential, if your calculations are good. Assuming training and resting are ideal.

2600 is not enough. That's borderline maintenance, depending on your metabolism. Try bumping it up to 4500 and see how that works. I know it's hard to eat so much but really there's no way around it...if you wanna grow, you gotta eat.

Ill tell u something interesting, I finished my pct a month ago, I am not gaining as fast (i didnt really start gaining until week 5/test enth, go figure) as I did week 8 of my cyce, but im still gaining, so im still getting bigger, body fat starting to fall, really really positive.

All because, I think, I fully realised 3kgs of chicken breast, 60 eggs, bags and bags of brown rice olive oil, oats and a decent protien just to keep nutrition in check, a week, was what I really needed.. When people say get your diet in check and people brush.it.off i.shake my head, lol

I depended on a mass gainer at the beginning of my cycle, and thats where I screwed up.. But its going fantastic now, natty too!

I think u over complicating it,.you work out what size you want to be, calculate nutrients needed, get good work out plan going.and push dude..

cb i need to emphasise again that im not cycling yet lol. The figures im using are just my current ones for example purposes. 2100 is my maintenance at present so i eat 2600 just now.

Sleepingz- did you stick with the same calories throughout then when you got thay diet in check?

asiandude - cheers man, youve totally got a hold of what i'm asking and explained it perfectly there. So just a bit extra calories for a few weeks post cycle just to compensate for low test while it returns to natty? And eat like a beast from the start even if it means some fat gain at the outset it should eventually drop off?

I know it night seem like overcompliation but i feel its important to know what the body is doing and fully understand things rather than ploughing ahead and pinning away.

I understand you're not cycling, you still need to overeat to grow. 500 calories above your maintenance isn't gonna do much. You also gotta figure that the 2100 maintenance number you have is just an estimate unless you actually got hooked up to a machine at the doctor's office that measures your metabolism.

Whether on cycle or not, you have to eat to grow. It wont happen if you dont. Dude, look at Michael Phelps (swimmer). He's knocking back 12,000 calories per day. Im not saying we all need to do that but just a comparison to your 2600 calories.

I personally eat about 4000-4500 when off and 6000+ when on. Oh and in case your wondering as of yesterday morning Im 236 lbs, ~11% bf.

Bulking pretty much works the same as a cutting. When you start cutting at a certain amount of cals (ie 2100) you continue at this amount even when you have dropped 20 lbs, the only time you change the calorie intake is if you hit a plateau otherwise you continue the same amount. My example, ive lost 60lbs on 2300 since i started and still the diet is the same. Nothing has changed. Now for the bulk eat 500 above maintenance, if your maintenance is 2100 then yes eat 2600 for the duration of the bulk and then once you finished and you start PCT then you adjust calories to match your current weight which in this case will be maintenance again but since you have more lbm the calories increase........

I like the way you are thinking, youre def doing youre research. Based on my research(im no pro!!), YEs you want to up cals after cycle to maintain gains. Example- your tdee is 3000, you eat at 3500 to bulk and start cycle. (In a perfect world you would slowly up your intake throughout cycle to maintain 500 surplus as your gaining). At the end of cycle you have gained weight that puts your tdee aty 3500, so you up it to 4000 to continue holding/gaining. After cycle you will prob drop a bit of water so that will effect weight even though not technically altering tdee.... Very complex when you think that much into it. I would just continually weigh yourself, check bf, get lbm, and alter your eating according to your goals, and how your body is reacting.

Everyone is different so it takes some trial/error to learn your body, but yes, if you are 180 at 3500 cals on cycle, and you drop cycle and change nothing else, you will prob lose weight if your beyond natural limit. If your not beyond natural limit you may keep gaining at same cals just not quite as effectively.......

Yeah, I stuck to 3500, and 1200 was from mass gainers, when I stuck to food and just reg protien sup things worked out and started gainin... Find a cheap supermarket and buy in bulk.. Thats what I do.anyways..

Thanks guys. Your Input is all appreciated. It seemed like a silly question when i asked but i'm glad i did as i've got a variety of feedback and a few things to think about. Would the general consensus be to try and eat the same calories consistently from start to finish or instead to monitor and adjust throughout setting smaller surplus increases each time and just increasing it when lbm gains plateau?

I think from what each of you have said i now understand that the need for increased calories post cycle is due to the post cycle environment where hormones are trying to reach homeostatis and that tdee maybe isn't affected by the addition of aas. With this being said does this mean that post number 6 above should actally say that to continue to be 200lbs immediately post cycle then you must eat 'more' than a 200lb guy for a few weeks? Because on cycle you already would have been eating like a 200lb guy inthe first instance to reach that mark?

cb - i hope i didn't come across as rude. You clearly know your stuff it's just that eating at such a huge surplus is against everything i've read on the nutrition forum. I've actually tried 3000cals before and i was a good 30 lbs heavier than my current weight however i was just fat everywhere, i don't know if that comes down to training or diet but it's the reason i wiped the slate clean and i'm now starting afresh and making leaner gains. I'm even adding fat gains on 2600 at present. Is there something you think i could've been doing wrong, not enough cardio or whatever? i only do cardio 2-3 times per week.

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Originally Posted by gonnagethuge

cb - i hope i didn't come across as rude.

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Not at all bro.. we're all here to learn and discuss things. What may work for some may not work for others. If you got fat from taking in 3000 calories then obviously you were consuming way more than what you were using. Maybe try lowering the fats and possibly carbs and up'ing the protein. You kinda just have to see how your body responds to what your eating and adjust from there.

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Originally Posted by cb714

Not at all bro.. we're all here to learn and discuss things. What may work for some may not work for others. If you got fat from taking in 3000 calories then obviously you were consuming way more than what you were using. Maybe try lowering the fats and possibly carbs and up'ing the protein. You kinda just have to see how your body responds to what your eating and adjust from there.

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Totally agree with this, the diet has to be customized to you and your lifestyle. If you already are doing maintenance and have not lost or gain anything then is easy from there. Just add 300-500 calories or even more, depends on how you respond to it. Maintain that surplus all the way to the end and once you start PCT than adjust to the current weight you will be in. That's it!!!

Or you can monitor as you go along but IMO that takes more time and effort and i think with work, school, home, diet, exercise, etc we need all the time we can get. Once again don't complicate things by over thinking them, just take either route, whichever works best for you and go from there!!