25mg Clomid + 100mg Test. Cyp = Unlimited 350 mg Test. Cyp Cycle without Suppression?

[Boba155]

Hi all,

I remember reading Prisoner22's famous Test Taper thread over at ********* where it was discussed that using a low dose SERM such as 25 mg Clomid actually completely prevented HPTA suppression (Measured by LH and FSH) when using a dose of 100 mg Testosterone Cypionate.

This really intrigued me. Let's say an average man 25 years old has testosterone levels around 600 ng/dl. Now if we extrapolate the increase in testosterone that Clomid causes in and of itself, those levels can be raised to about 1000 ng/dl (1). Now, if you throw in the 100 mg T. Cyp, we can extrapolate that that dose would boost T levels about 500 ng/dl (2), which I draw from all the TRT studies I have seen at that dose.

So now you sit at 1,500-1,600 ng/dl with zero suppression. Now, 300 mg of T. Cyp/wk has been shown to bring T levels up to about 1,345 ng/dl (2). So in fact, you are pretty much running 350-400 mg T. Cyp/wk with ZERO suppression.

Has anyone ever thought of doing this? It seems extremely promising to me in theory, being able to run a pretty good dose for as long as you wanted with no suppression. Now I know that a theory is usually great on paper but not so great in practice (SERM side effects, etc.).

Any thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

CITATIONS:

1) Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism
2) Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

[gixxerboy1]

clomid is not going to keep you from getting shut down when injecting testosterone.

[Boba155]

Have you read the Test Taper thread? It clearly states that when researchers administered 25 mg Clomid/day along with 100 mg testosterone cypionate/week, there was no change in LH and FSH from control. In other words, no shutdown. As you probably know, clomid blocks negative feedback through the E2 pathway, which is far more suppressive than the androgen pathway.

EDIT: Wow, T ... NATION is blocked out. Damn.

[gixxerboy1]

I've read the tread. Even in his first post he doesnt want it debated. So really there is no opposing opinions. There is no blood work to prove anything he says.

and a few people posted they tried it and felt a standard 4 week pct worked better for them.

[Boba155]

While I do agree it is shaky, perhaps I can PM Prisoner and see if he can shoot me that study (seeing as he has citations for every other part, it would be odd to simply make that up).

Gixxer, did they try the taper for PCT? Or simply run it alone as a cycle.

[gixxerboy1]

the response i read tried it for pct. again the person responding had no blood work. But they felt a lag in the taper and after it was done it took a few weeks after to feel normal. They thought they recovered better using a standard pct.

[Boba155]

Did their PCT incorporate the standard clomid taper (300 mg, then 100 mg, etc)? This may explain why it beat the tapers results. Did they run clomid with the taper or simply just taper T alone?

Anyone else have any opinions or ideas?

[gixxerboy1]

I dont remember. They tried his taper method and it didnt work as well as a standard pct. I dont know what that member considers standard 4 week pct.

I still say there is no way you arent suppressed when injecting 100mg of test a week because of taking 25mg of clomid

[Boba155]

I'm simply going off of what the study (supposedly) says. If researchers truly did draw blood and LH +FSH did not differ from controls after 16 weeks of 25 mg clomid/day and 100 mg test. cyp/day, then it's a fact that there is no suppression. Anecdotal evidence takes the backseat when bloodwork shows otherwise.

Obviously I'm sure that this cycle would SUCK in terms of how you 'feel', and is probably why your friend thought a standard PCT worked better. Running a SERM for 16 weeks would definitely make you feel pretty nasty. However, if I was able to run basically 400 mg Testosterone Cypionate for 16 weeks with no HPTA suppression, I feel like I could grit my teeth and deal with the sides. No pain, no gain.

[gixxerboy1]

just because lh and fsh are in the norm doesnt mean the test levels are in the normal range.

[Boba155]

Could you clarify what you mean by that? I see no reason in this case for normal LH and FSH to not indicate normal testosterone production. There are no T agonists being used, no leydig cell apoptotic agents. Simply an estrogen antagonist which blocks the down-regulation of LH and FSH production.

Normal LH/FSH and low testosterone is primary hypogonadism, which usually indicates some sort of testicular problem - genetic in most cases, or following trauma to the testicles.

[gixxerboy1]

the clomid will raise the lh/fsh but i dont think the body will still produce test if its being injected.

[Boba155]

I think so. Isn't that how the HPTA works? LH and FSH enter the testes and through them the Leydig cells, bind to surface receptors, and in response the cells produce and release testosterone into the bloodstream. If testosterone levels are too high the excess estrogen produced by aromatization binds to the ER within the pituitary and shut down LH/FSH production.

The body is pretty much a machine - there's no way it can "recognize" excess testosterone without receptor binding.

[gixxerboy1]

and you think the 25mgs of clomid will block enough estrogen?

i would really like to see full bloodwork for someone doing it. Its a theory.

[gixxerboy1]

In theory could you do the same thing with hcg and an ai then on the 100mgs of test?

[Boba155]

You probably could - however, I would hate to be a guinea pig for an approach like that seeing as we have no idea what doses would be needed. At least with the 100 mg T. Cyp we have a base theory so we don't mess up too badly.

Another thing I would be worried about is E2 using HCG + Clomid. That's quite a big of estrogen. Still, could work.

And clomid is actually a very potent SERM compared to many previously discovered ones. I could definetely see 25 mg of it blocking negative feedback of a lowly 100 mg T. Cyp.

I really want to see that study from Prisoner to add some proof to my theory. Hopefully he responds to my PM soon.

[Juice Authority]

In theory could you do the same thing with hcg and an ai then on the 100mgs of test?

That's not a theory; it's a fact. I've done it. Problem is there is still HPTA suppression, but I'm shutdown for good so it doesn't matter to me. I'll run hCG + Aroma for a few weeks mainly to give the receptors and the body a rest.

[Boba155]

Thanks for the input Juice!

I'm betting the problem is we simply don't know the dosages for HCG + Anti-E. Too much or too little of either will no doubt cause suppression.

That's why I like the T. Cyp method. We don't need to fidget around with the doses.

[Juice Authority]

Thanks for the input Juice!

I'm betting the problem is we simply don't know the dosages for HCG + Anti-E. Too much or too little of either will no doubt cause suppression.

That's why I like the T. Cyp method. We don't need to fidget around with the doses.

Everyone is different but I'll do 1,000ius e/3days during this period. I'll take 25mgs of Aroma the day of or the day before hCG. I'll generally start this 10 days - 2 weeks after the last shot of Cyp and go for another 3-4 weeks. It's basically a 6 week break in-between test injections. I'll do this once a year.

[Boba155]

Any thought about doing it long term with possibly lower doses? Or are side effects preventing entertaining that thought?

[Juice Authority]

Any thought about doing it long term with possibly lower doses? Or are side effects preventing entertaining that thought?

I don't really like hCG, especially not prolonged use of it. It aggravates gyno and makes me breakout. I really try to limit its use mainly for those reasons. During this 6 week break, if you want to call it that, I usually get acne on the shoulders and back.

[Boba155]

Thanks for the input. It will be interesting to see how the side effects of this "cycle" compare with HCG + Anti-E.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[ironbeck]

I loved Hgc....It really helped toward the end of cycle and after, that's the only thing I can think of, due to never getting any boner problems at all. Is it insane to also believe that I did not get shut down completely during cycle.

[Boba155]

You probably didn't. Do you remember your HCG dosage? It wasn't high enough, it probably merely suppressed your pituitary's LH/FSH secretion.

Also you have to remember that the pituitary recovers FAR faster than the testicles in terms of hormone production.

I think the Clomid + Test Cyp "cycle" would be incredible for young users who don't want to risk shutdown/infertility. My 2 cents.

[ironbeck]

Your telling me I did'nt? and your asking If I remember the dose, are you j/k or intentionally trying to insult me? Who are you calling a young user? I'm twice your age kid.

[Boba155]

What the hell? Why so hostile?

I wasn't even talking about you for this cycle - notice how I wrote "for YOUNG users".

It was a simple question if you remembered your HCG dosage. Not an insult.