2 Months of Planning-please critique my first cycle

[rasc170]

Hey guys! Down to business:

Stats:
32 yr. old male. 5-10. 175 pounds @ ~9%bf (pic below is in the middle of my cut and I've gotten leaner since). Been training for 2.5 years (currently on Layne's Phat) and diet is pretty solid and I hit my macros every day. Gonna be doing my first 12 week cycle of 500 mg. of Test eth. weekly. Starting on the 5th week I'm gonna throw in 250 I.U.s of HCG. Armidex will be used .25 daily and adjusted from there. For PCT i'm going to go with the pct posted by pinnacle, which is

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

I'm going to use clen to allow me to eat a lot but most importantly for the anti catabolic purposes, but havent read much about when to include that. The other thing I wanted to ask about is IGF as a part of pct, but then read about the hgh gut side effect and got kind of turned off. I want to keep the tightest waist possible. I can't use clomid because I have keratoconus. My other concern is hair loss. Been losing my hair for 15 years and managed to maintain most of it due to dht blockers/rogaine/nizoral. From my research I understand there is no such thing as a hair friendly cycle and Im at the point where i should consider shaving it anyways.

The pic is in the middle of my cut cold and unflexed, so it's not entirely accurate of how I look now.

[rasc170]

Bump for answers

[The Bear 79]

You have no natural foundation bro, you're very thin. You should take the time to fix your diet & possibly your training regime, & try to hit at least 200lbs natural before you cycle, otherwise you will just be throwing money away, you will never keep any of your gains, & in fact you will likely end up even smaller than you are now within 30 - 45 days after PCT.

[rasc170]

200 @ What percent bodyfat? From where I stand now, That's 25 pounds of muscle. You're talking 3 years.

[The Bear 79]

I never said you had to do it over night, or that you would be able to, its gonna take some time to do this the right way. I prefer 8 - 12% bf, but its best not to exceed 15%.

[The Bear 79]

You will be amazed at how much muscle you will be able to pack on after a few tweaks to your diet & training. Its not as hard as you think, the only reason its been so hard to put on what you have now its because your diet & training are wrong.

[rasc170]

Bear-Thanks for the input brother. I really do appreciate it and will take your advice into consideration. I can see putting on 5-10 pounds of quality muscle before cycling, which would put me at 180-185, but I think being a lean 200 pounds natty at 5-10 is many years of training and dieting. It's even debateable if it's beyond someone's genetic potential. But I will take into consideration what you said bro. Thanks!

[aportinastorm]

I agree with bear, your fairly light for your hight. I definitely feel that by tweaking your diet and workout routine possibly that you can easily add on 25 pounds in three years. I know you sounded discouraged about the three year part, but putting on 25lbs of muscle in three years is a fairly impressive feat dependant on your starting weight and size and you would be rather pleased with the yearly results along the way. If you were think you can add 25lbs of muscles in one or two cycles and keep it without your diet and routine being absolutely perfect then you have very unrealistic expectations.

[rasc170]

First of all thank you to both of you for responding. I appreciate your input in this. I've thought about what both of you have said all day. But I have to say that I'm gonna go ahead with my plans to cycle. I know deep down in my heart that ive put a lot of heart and soul into where I am right now. I started with a skinny fat frame (little muscle mass and a big belly). I dont want to step on anybody's toes and wont mention names, but there are two threads right now in the member cycle area where the posters are in worse shape than me and no one has discouraged them from cycling. One guy is 5-8 and 178 pounds and the other is 185 both ~15% bodyfat. IMO I have a much better chance at holding onto my gains for the simple fact that i've been able to cut my fat levels from above 20 down to single digits and without burning muscle tissue. How do I Know? I haven't lost strength and actually have increased it while on this cut. And my body measurements still look good. Let's be real for a second...anyone can eat a ton of food and put on muscle, but the true test of a champion is how much fat they put on along with that muscle and how much of that muscle tissue they're able to keep while burning that fat. That's the name of the game..and the sad part is that if I had posted this when I was 190 pounds with a lot more fat, i would've got all high fives.

Sure I might be able to squeeze out some gains natty on my next bulk, but if I can even gain/keep 10 pounds of pure muscle after all is said and done after this cycle, i'll be happy. I'm gonna aim for 15-20 pounds, but I KNOW I CAN KEEP 10 WITHOUT A DOUBT. How long is it gonna take me to put on 10 pounds of lean muscle natty...at least 1.5 years and that's being generous. I'll post before/after photos along with bod pod measurements of weight and actual bodyfat. None of that guesstimate bullshit either. I'll show you guys proof in black and white my bod pod measurements at the end of my cut and then another one done 4 weeks after my pct.

Im 32 and life is short. Had I started this journey when I was 19 then yeah, i would've had plenty of time to be patient. But Who knows how long i'll get to be single for. I can do this now and enjoy the perks that come with a great physique now or finally reach that point after im married and have kids and can't take advantage of everything it brings.

The only thing that's going to stop me from cycling is if my preliminary blood tests come back with something seriously wrong. Sorry for the long response and everything I said was with the most respect from one member to another. Thanks again guys!

[The Bear 79]

If you're in a hurry to pointlessly get rid of some cash & get nothing back in return, you can just send it to me, you'll get the same results, your money will be gone & you'll still be small. At least I'll do something useful with your money....................

[aportinastorm]

I can respect that, still dont think you will get the results you desire from it but who knows. Your age is right, low body fat, and your cycle looks good so good luck. I still strongly encourage you to go post your diet in the diet section and get a lot of advise there and try to really dial it in because you are small for your hight and im guessing your not eating enough but cant say for sure without seeing your diet. This will significantly help you keep your gains after your cycle because if your not eating correctly youll lose any gains that you get. Remember theres a big difference between eating healthy and eating correctly. A lot of people eat healthy and say there diet is great but arnt eating the correct amount for their desired goal and weight thus having a hard time obtaining it despite putting in all the effort and energy.

[aportinastorm]

Actually just re checked your cycle, hcg 500iu split between two shots per week instead of just the 250ius per week and armidex.25 eod to start instead of daily and adjust as needed.

[thephil]

U should seriously listen to these guys ther giving you sound advice. Therse no need to use yet and its not goin to b beneficial.
you look more like 12%bf to me.. Might be lighting but u def dont look 9%. And its easy just by looking at ur pic that u can put on heaps more muscle natty before the need to use aas. Iv seen bigger guys show up for first day of gym. I know its genetics too. But its easy to see that u have a lot more muscle maturity to develop before using bro.

Soz to be harsh but wer trying to stop you from throwing your money away.
And like bear said if ur realy keen to throw money away i will have heaps more fun with it than bear will :P

Sent from my iPhone using Forum

[rasc170]

@ bear- without checking prices, a simple test cycle is on the low end of the price spectrum. I've wasted a lot more on dumber things in my life.

@aportinastorm-yeah I meant to say 250 ius of hcg twice a week while on cycle but mistyped it. If anything the amount of food im eating is spot on. @ 2900 calories, I'm still losing roughly a pound a week and hit my macros daily. While cutting i get 1.5-1.7 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, .6grams of fat per pound of bw. and fill the rest up with carbs. Granted i dont always consume "clean foods" in that allotment. During my cut, I still ate ice cream a few times a week and worked it into my macros. I'm starting to cut that out more and more and fill it with healthy carbs, but still will eat my candy and ice cream a few times a week. Research shows that the type of macro has no effect on body composition and to a large part that a carb is simply a carb. My other problem is that I was getting a lot of protein from shakes and not enough from whole foods, which I'm already working on. Besides those two things my diet is spot on. I'm definitely not interested in eating 6-8 meals a day, nor do I believe there is any advantage to frequent feedings

Im gonna increase my calories by a 100 once im done cutting and find that spot where im gaining about a pound a week and then start my cycle at that caloric intake and adjust from there. At the end of my cycle and pct im still gaining a pound a week and hitting my macros then my diet is good...all that's left would be to play around with my macros and see what's getting me better results.

@thephil-I agree with you on the bodyfat, I would say ~11-12% in that pic, but like I said in OP that's in the middle of my cut a few months ago, so it's not how I look now. And if you know guys that are 175 pounds at 5-10 and 9% bodyfat before they even start lifting then you need to tell them they have a bright future in bodybuilding. Those are excellent stats for someone who never touched a weight in their life.

I don't think you guys realize 200 pounds at single bodyfat levels look like. Let's take a look shall we....

Dr. Layne Norton....Layne Norton is a Pro Natural Bodybuilder with the IFPA and NGA. Layne has his PhD in Nutritional Sciences with his thesis emphasis in muscle protein metabolism and a BS in biochemistry. He is also an accomplished powerlifter holding the AAPF Squat and Deadlift American Records in the 220 lb class at 568 & 700 lbs respectively. According to his bodyspace stats on bodybuilding.com he's the same height as me and weighs 217 pounds at 11% bodyfat. He's been lifting for 14 years.

profile page:http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/str8flexed/


next up...my man Manu. Dude is a beast and kills it every day in the gym. He weighs 197 pounds and single digit bodyfat levels. He's been working out for 9 years and claims lifetime natty, which a lot of people say is debatable. He eats more than 4000 calories a day so no one can say he doesnt eat enough and downs a pint of ben and jerry's ice cream EVERY NIGHT. Regardless Here are some of his pics and links to his bodyspace and log on bb.com. This is what 200 pounds at single digit bf looks like....This is what you expect me to be in 3 years!





profile page:http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/PBateman2b2w/



Still think 200 pounds at single digits is easy? Getting to 200 pounds on single digits at my height is not something that's gonna happen in 3 years. If I listen to what you guys have said, i'll be 40 before I even start my first cycle. To be honest, I question some of the advice given out here. If you're not at your genetic potential then everyone here will say "you dont need juice, you need diet, training, etc. etc." You have members here telling 18 year olds that it's possible for someone at 5-10 to get to 250 pounds and be between 8-12% bodyfat without drugs. Seriously? Arnold weighed 250 and ate dbol like candy. But of course you can achieve what one of the greatest bodybuilders in human existence has achieved without drugs if you only eat more chicken breast and brown rice right? I know I'm coming off as a pompous asshole right now, but I say all this with the most utmost respect. It's good to aim high and have goals, but let's be realistic here.

I know my cycle isnt going to be perfect. Even if I waited another 2 years and did it, it still wont be perfect. But I don't think someone has to reach their genetic potential before they think about cycling. There is NO WAY i'm going to end up with less muscle than I started with after the cycle. And if I only have 10 pounds of lean muscle to show for the first cycle then so be it. That 10 pounds would take me 2 years to achieve realistically and that's if I lived like a monk and did nothing but lift and work. I've done that for the past year and i'm sick of it. I've grown apart from close friends because I'm scared to have a few beers while watching a football game. I sit at home on friday and saturday nights because right now my life is nothing but work and gym and that's not how I wanna live it. Im not trying to be a ifbb pro and To be honest I don't think I ever wanna be over 200 pounds lean anyways. I know I can get there without drugs, but I'm not going to wait until im 40 and can't enjoy the perks of a nice body. Make no mistake, I'm doing it for myself, but if any one of you is tell me that you dont enjoy the attention you get from what you achieved then you're lying to me and yourself. I live a much healthier life then 90% of americans and if I want to use steroids in a responsible manner then that's my choice.

/rant

[Capebuffalo]

I know this is not your main point but you used as an example as every per-pubescence child does.. Arnold.Born in the outskirts of Graz, Austria, Schwarzenegger began lifting weights at the age of 15. At this time he was a skinny boy weighing a mere 160 pounds. Inspired by the physique and success of Reg Park and encouraged by his father, he soon began to rapidly build up his body training as much as five hours a day (Arnold). In a very short three years, he had already won the Austrian Junior weightlifting championship, as well as, the Junior Mr. Europe title (Lincoln 74). This was just the beginning of his reign of supremacy. Soon afterward he ran a gym and health club in his new town called Munich (Lincoln 74). He had left Graz to broaden his perspective on bodybuilding. A decade of intense training paid off in pounds. Arnold had increased his weight from 160 pounds to a solid and well-defined 240 pounds, and began dominating the bodybuilding stage becoming the rage of Europe and winning every amateur title for which he had the chance(Lincoln 77).

I have read everything and anything on him. He did not take any steroid or derivative until after he left the army. He had won Mr. Europe while in the army.And when he did it was for a short period before contest not year round like today. So don't even play that card.He genetics were such a gift from God he didn't need them. As are any of the pros genetics today. Your going to do what you want. Just remember you were advised against it. And we told ya so.

[The Bear 79]

Your problem is you're lazy, impatient & you have already mentally defeated yourself. Those stats are completely achievable naturally, you just don't want to put the work in, you're only interested in the shortcut.

[rasc170]

Your problem is you're lazy, impatient & you have already mentally defeated yourself. Those stats are completely achievable naturally, you just don't want to put the work in, you're only interested in the shortcut.

oh ok, I guess layne norton is lazy as well since he only weighs 217 after dedicating his entire life to bodybuilding. I might be impatient, but I know im not lazy. I'd be lazy if I said i just wanna party and get hammered 3x a week and just do juice to take the easy way out. That's not the case.

And no those stats are not easily achievable. Show me one person who is 250 pounds natty under 6 feet in the single digits. I dont follow professional bbing, but I believe that even the pros today compete around the 250-270 pound mark. And you're telling me you can achieve what they have without any drugs, while the best genetics in the world are pinning enough drugs to take down an elephant.

[D7M]

I would only use the HCG on cycle, not in PCT like RR's old post has it.

And you can recover just fine with Nolva only PCT for a simple test cycle. I've done it.

With that said, I'm going to respectfully disagree with everyone in this thread.

You're lean, you can tell you train and put in the work of the lifestyle. No, you're not a monster, but um, I'm pretty sure that's why you want to cycle. lol.

And you've clearly done some research.

I say go for it.

No doubt, post your diet for critique before you start.

But this whole, "you have to be 25, 5'10, 200lbs+ and single digits BF" non sense is getting out of hand.

Any other questions, bro?

[D7M]

And please edit post #14. NO price discussion.

[rasc170]

I would only use the HCG on cycle, not in PCT like RR's old post has it.

And you can recover just fine with Nolva only PCT for a simple test cycle. I've done it.

With that said, I'm going to respectfully disagree with everyone in this thread.

You're lean, you can tell you train and put in the work of the lifestyle. No, you're not a monster, but um, I'm pretty sure that's why you want to cycle. lol.

And you've clearly done some research.

I say go for it.

No doubt, post your diet for critique before you start.

But this whole, "you have to be 25, 5'10, 200lbs+ and single digits BF" non sense is getting out of hand.

Any other questions, bro?

post edited. Thanks for your input! Not trying to sound like a dick to anyone here at all. Just voicing my opinion. Question...should I run clen as a part of my pct or no? I have a lot of it sitting in my cupboard that i bought for cutting but didnt see any major benefits of it over a EC stack, so I got a lot laying around.

[D7M]

I wouldn't worry about the clen. Just do your first cycle hard and well.

And, yah, I prefer ECA to clen anyday.

Sell that clen or something. lol.

[Standby]

I wouldn't worry about the clen. Just do your first cycle hard and well.

And, yah, I prefer ECA to clen anyday.

Sell that clen or something. lol.

listen to him. i did saved me some money and worked just as good if not better. but since you already have some then youll make money even better

[DAAS]

500iu of HCG a day is far to much.

[DAAS]

But this whole, "you have to be 25, 5'10, 200lbs+ and single digits BF" non sense is getting out of hand.

Any other questions, bro?

couldnt agree more.

[rasc170]

500iu of HCG a day is far to much.

im gonna scrap the HCG as part of the pct and use it during my cycle starting the 4th week dosed at 250 IU twice a week. Probably on the same day as my test enth. shots

[The Bear 79]

couldnt agree more.

This was never about flawless stats, this kid is small, underweight, foundationless...............should I continue............. Any way, none of you can deny it. And I never said he needs to be a Mr. O. competitor before he cycles, you guys took it to that extreme. I simply stated he should put on a natural foundation before he cycles, but apparently he's too lazy & impatient to be bothered with diet & training improvements.

[< <Samson> >]

Really?

I think you have a decent foundation, maybe a little on the light side.

But still, 175 @ 5'10" and looking damn lean ain't bad.


Not saying you can't do more naturally, but ehh. . . .


Like if you hit a "normal" beginner cycle and land 10-15Lbs of Lbm that you keep, you would be right at 185-190 or so and 12% Bf.


That's not bad is it?

[rasc170]

This was never about flawless stats, this kid is small, underweight, foundationless...............should I continue............. Any way, none of you can deny it. And I never said he needs to be a Mr. O. competitor before he cycles, you guys took it to that extreme. I simply stated he should put on a natural foundation before he cycles, but apparently he's too lazy & impatient to be bothered with diet & training improvements.

I already posted my macros/calories. Let's hear how you would improve it. And please don't even start talking about meal frequency and "clean foods". And I'd love to see your pics BTW. And I gotta say I love how you call me kid....lol

Don't worry bro.... I'll pm you with links to my log along with my beginning bod pods and another one after my pct. I'll let you Take out a calculator and count the numbers when they're in front of in black and white. Hopefully you'll be man enough to say you were wrong

Don't try to bs your way out of this. You said a minimum of 200 pounds lean before I even think about cycling. I showed you more than enough proof that it's close to genetic limit for my height. You're clueless and have no idea What you're talking about and heres why:

1. You blindly assumed that I wasnt able to put on muscle without any regards to where I started when I picked up the weights. That shows you were just jumping the gun with your holier than thou attitude. What if I was 300 pounds 2 1/2 years ago and here I am now...would you still say that's horrible progress? Many people would say that's a terrific transformation. Granted that's not where I started, but you dont know where I did start and have no basis for claiming I wont be able to hold on to the gains from a cycle. I'll say this again, If i can hold on to lean tissue cutting then I certainly will be able to hold onto it while bulking.

2. You dont know what my goals are! I might not want to be 200 pounds...and not everyone has the same goals as you. I dont care to be a bodybuilder and would much rather prefer the fitness look. I know I can get there natty in 7-10 years, but i'll be honest I dont wanna wait that long. Has nothing to do with being lazy. I bust my ass everyday in the ****ing gym. Impatient...maybe. Lazy...? fuk no!

3.You pulled out 200 pounds at single digits out of your ass! Furthermore, you have no clue what a lean 200 pounds looks like and the length of time it would take someone to acheive that based off my stats. And that's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.

[The Bear 79]

I was over 200 lbs & 9% bf before I ever cycled, so tell me again I don't know what it looks like. And for the last god dam time, I never said you need to be single digit bf before you cycle, so stop putting words in my mouth. You say 200 lbs isn't achievable because its too difficult, & you're too impatient. I can't wait to see you 8 weeks after PCT at 165 lbs & full of regret.

[Capebuffalo]

[B]

I never said you had to do it over night, or that you would be able to, its gonna take some time to do this the right way. I prefer 8 - 12% bf, but its best not to exceed 15%.

These are his exact words. Yes he did say you could reach 200 lbs natty which is true[/B]

[castiron]

this is getting juicy.

I say go for it! You seem like you know your stuff. at least your are lean...

[castiron]

i wanna sea the bear and the buffalo fight it out in the wild.

[< <Samson> >]

LMAO. . . . . .


You'll be fine. . . . I was the same LBM when I started my 1st cycle.

[thephil]

Im 5ft 9in at 200lb started training 4years ago at 143lb dont tell me it cant be. Stop being lazy and have a real go. I think u are definetly still under weight and can put on more muscle first

Sent from my iPhone using Forum

[rasc170]

^^^ you've cleary used aas to get to that 200 pounds. Your argument has no validity. No hate...you look great...just saying.

As for Bear...dude you're pathetic. Can you not comprehend English? I never said getting to 200 pounds natty was impossible. If you can find anywhere i've said that in this thread, i'll give you a gold star! Please re-read the thread before posting again. All I said was that it will be many years before you can add 25 pounds of muscle tissue. And I choose not to wait that long because I wanna enjoy my body when I'm single. Where do you even get the 200 pounds from..that's what I wanna know. Where is the rationale for that? Look dude, you haven't refuted any of my arguments. I've given you real life examples, showed you why your logic is flawed, and called you out on what you've achieved, asked you to point out what's wrong with my diet...and you've done nothing. All you've done is sit there and type over and over again "if you cycle now, you'll lose all your gains and in fact you'll walk away with less muscle than you have now". And you havent provided any kind of rationale for that statement either BTW.

are you seriously retarded bro? Let me actually break down what you're saying: I weigh 175 right now on a caloric deficit.....and you think....That after my cycle....im gonna weigh 165 when im bulking!!. Where do you even come up with this stuff? The only way that would happen is if I screw up my diet or I totally fuk up my endocrine system at which point I'll have bigger issues to worry about than my gains. And btw that can happen at any time...even at your magical 200 pounds. At this point I feel like you're playing a joke and this can't be real life! No one can be that dumb!

edit: to further drive home the fact that getting to 200 pounds is pretty much on the edge of my genetic limit, have a look here.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...potential.html

excerpt from the page:
"The simple real-world fact, which can be verified by going to any natural bodybuilding show is that you simply don’t see naturals coming into contest shape much above 200 pounds (the exceptions can usually be counted on one hand) and few even achieve that level of size"

Opps!!!! I forgot some idiot on a forum knows more than guys with PHDs, who have multiple books published in the field. You have no business giving out advice here...

[The Bear 79]

You know absolutely jack shit. If nobody here knows anything then why ask anyone here for advice..............fvck you & your PhD touting retards, you're as sharp as a god dam bowling ball & just as dense. If you're reading & comprehension were up to par you would know my reasoning behind my claim that you will weigh less after your cycle then you do now. 200 lbs is a decent & very achievable natural foundation for someone your height, maybe if you weren't in a caloric deficit, you could reach it genius, & if you think you have reached your genetic limit at your scrawny 175 lbs then that just reinforces my accusation that you're fvcking stupid. Now take your fvcking punk ass back to mommies basement & finish shaving the dogs pvssy & waxing your dads taint...........................THAT'S all you've ever "owned" or ever will twiggy. I'm done here, you can argue with the fvcking idiot in the mirror, at least the idiot looking back at you will be supportive of your premature, impatient, lazy decision too cycle, after all, that's all you really want right...................you want everyone to just agree with your decision & anyone that doesn't isn't worth listening to because they don't know what they're talking about. You'll see, someday within the next 3 - 4 months you're gonna look in the mirror & call that guy a retarded, lazy, impatient asshole.

[Capebuffalo]

i wanna sea the bear and the buffalo fight it out in the wild.

????? WTF I am agreeing with Bear. Then op is the one screaming single digit.. I dont know whos old enough to remember Andy Griffith. But the op sound like Gomer yelling CITIZENS ARREST CITIZENS ARREST

[Capebuffalo]

You know absolutely jack shit. If nobody here knows anything then why ask anyone here for advice..............fvck you & your PhD touting retards, you're as sharp as a god dam bowling ball & just as dense. If you're reading & comprehension were up to par you would know my reasoning behind my claim that you will weigh less after your cycle then you do now. 200 lbs is a decent & very achievable natural foundation for someone your height, maybe if you weren't in a caloric deficit, you could reach it genius, & if you think you have reached your genetic limit at your scrawny 175 lbs then that just reinforces my accusation that you're fvcking stupid. Now take your fvcking punk ass back to mommies basement & finish shaving the dogs pvssy & waxing your dads taint...........................THAT'S all you've ever "owned" or ever will twiggy. I'm done here, you can argue with the fvcking idiot in the mirror, at least the idiot looking back at you will be supportive of your premature, impatient, lazy decision too cycle, after all, that's all you really want right...................you want everyone to just agree with your decision & anyone that doesn't isn't worth listening to because they don't know what they're talking about. You'll see, someday within the next 3 - 4 months you're gonna look in the mirror & call that guy a retarded, lazy, impatient asshole.

You ever consider a .338 Lapua for long range OP's? With extreme predigest comes to mind. Just Saying.

[D7M]

Chill with the flaming both of you.

Learn to state your opinions without name calling.

[Scabtree]

D7M - I would have to agree with everything you have said.

The OP has done sufficient research, which is evident.

A very simple Test only cycle will likely not turn his wiener inside out or cause irreversible damage.

Even if the end result of this cycle is poor, at least he will gain valuable knowledge in the process for future cycles.