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It.is generally.accepted trenbolone increases igf-1 release from the liver. How significant or insignificant is the increase? I understand it would not be as prominent as the elevation of igf-1 from using Hgh and was looking for.any empirical evidence of the elevation in a controlled study via blood levels,etc.
What a surprise. Nobody knows. Oh yeah I.forgot ... TREN IS TOO HARSH lmao
I love tren its one of my favorites i do notice it gets a bad rap on here but idk i use it n its one of the best in IMO & i even dare run it alone n NO PCT:2nono: n to the dissbelief to most here there was no catastrophic outcome i even kept most of my gains n im sure ill be accused of fabricating that data from the cool kids , but as far as the IGF-1 release i dont know im sure its in one of my books ill look later cuz now im interested
Cool. Great to meet someone else that enjoys and is not scared to use tren. As with 99% of the mainstream info out there on steroids, tren is overhyped even on boards among the aas using community. The sides are often overstated. Insomnia is mild even at 125mg ed. Aggression is not as bad as some say... in terms of aggression I find fluoxymesterone causes a lot more general aggression and agitation. The sweating is intense but is honestly great from a thermogenic and metabolic standpoint. Only thing I.would say I disagree with is its use as a bulker. I find its weaker brother deca (also in the 19-nor family) much more beneficial as a bulker. Tren in bursts of 6-8 weeks is a great way to set up a recomp after a dirty bulk.
ive had a bad run with deca i dont like it but ive seen it used with great results but yea tren is treated like a sex offender around here i dident know it had such a bad rap till i joined up here
Tren is my favorite. The biggest Issue I have had with it is that it does make your ph levels in your body kind of toxic, you get night sweats and it bleaches your sheets. You need to make sure to drink ass loads of water and I alsways use pct because tren suppresses your natural test delevopment badly. Anyways, it's good stuff. lol. Gets me lean and mean.
Here ya go :Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk327
Actually, it stands to reason that Tren does, in fact, stimulate collagen synthesis.
You see, tren increases IGF-1 to a great degree, which ought to stimulate the growth of tendons, as we all know.
Endocrinology. 1989 May;124(5):2110-7.
Trenbolone alters the responsiveness of skeletal muscle satellite cells to fibroblast growth factor and insulin-like growth factor I.
Thompson SH, Boxhorn LK, Kong WY, Allen RE.
Department of Animal Sciences, University of Arizona, Tucson 85721.
The potential role of satellite cells in mediating the effect of trenbolone [17 beta-hydroxyestra-4,9-11-trien-3-one (TBOH)] on skeletal muscle hypertrophy was examined. Young female Sprague-Dawley rats received TBOH injections daily for 2 weeks; growth, body composition, and the composition of selected muscles were assessed. Treated rats grew more rapidly and deposited less body lipid and more protein. The semimembranosus muscle from treated rats was larger and had approximately 60% more DNA per muscle than muscles from control rats. The addition of trenbolone directly to the medium of cultured satellite cells did not stimulate cell proliferation, nor did it augment the stimulatory response of these cells to fibroblast growth factor (FGF) or insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I). In contrast, satellite cells cultured from TBOH-treated rats exhibited greater proliferative responses to FGF and IGF-I than satellite cells from control rats. In addition, serum from TBOH-treated rats stimulated greater cell proliferation in satellite cell cultures than serum from control rats. These experiments suggest that one possible mechanism responsible for the ability of TBOH to stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy may be through enhanced proliferation and differentiation of satellite cells as a result of the increased sensitivity of these cells to IGF-I and FGF.
PMID: 2707149 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
You will also note that Tren treated satellite cells showed an increased response to FGF (fibroblast growth factor). Again, as we know, (basic)FGF stimulates collagen synthesis:
Sports Med. 2003;33(5):381-94.The roles of growth factors in tendon and ligament healing.
Molloy T, Wang Y, Murrell G.
Orthopaedic Research Institute, St George Hospital Campus, University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia.
Tendon healing is a complex and highly-regulated process that is initiated, sustained and eventually terminated by a large number and variety of molecules. Growth factors represent one of the most important of the molecular families involved in healing, and a considerable number of studies have been undertaken in an effort to elucidate their many functions. This review covers some of the recent investigations into the roles of five growth factors whose activities have been best characterised during tendon healing: insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), transforming growth factor beta (TGFbeta), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF), and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF). All five are markedly up-regulated following tendon injury and are active at multiple stages of the healing process. IGF-I has been shown to be highly expressed during the early inflammatory phase in a number of animal tendon healing models, and appears to aid in the proliferation and migration of fibroblasts and to subsequently increase collagen production. TGFbeta is also active during inflammation, and has a variety of effects including the regulation of cellular migration and proliferation, and fibronectin binding interactions. VEGF is produced at its highest levels only after the inflammatory phase, at which time it is a powerful stimulator of angiogenesis. PDGF is produced shortly after tendon damage and helps to stimulate the production of other growth factors, including IGF-I, and has roles in tissue remodelling.In vitro and in vivo studies have shown that bFGF is both a powerful stimulator of angiogenesis and a regulator of cellular migration and proliferation. This review also covers some of the most recent studies into the use of these molecules as therapeutic agents to increase the efficacy and efficiency of tendon and ligament healing. Studies into the effects of the exogenous application of TGFbeta, IGF-I, PDGF and bFGF into the wound site singly and in combination have shown promise, significantly decreasing a number of parameters used to define the functional deficit of a healing tendon. Application of IGF-I has been shown to increase in the Achilles Functional Index and the breaking energy of injured rat tendon. TGFbeta and PDGF have been shown separately to increase the breaking energy of healing tendon. Finally, application of bFGF has been shown to promote cellular proliferation and collagen synthesis in vivo.
Therefore, Trenbolone, by stimulating (b)FGF as well as IGF-1 - certainly would stimulate collagen synthesis. I don't know of anyone who claims tren healed any injuries...but the evidence is here to suggest it.
I absolutely love tren. I have said this many times before and i'll say it again: it is my primary anabolic in all of my cycles, and has been for 5 years now. The ONLY things I use are testosterone and trenbolone. Gains from tren seem to stick far better than anything else i've used.
It is a well known fact that tren increases IGF-1, and you can find studies out there to show that. But don't expect it to raise it to the levels that HGH would. It supposedly still gives a nice massive increase in comparison to any other AAS though.
Sometimes I wonder if the real reason why tren was never approved for human use was really because it's such a strong compound that the medical community didn't want anyone to get a hold of it lol.
Best thing I ever ran was tren a ed and tne (oil suspension) e12 hr. Monster..IT IS HARSH ..8 week max for meQuote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
I hear you, but it depends on how much you're running through your cycle. What did your dosages look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capebuffalo
All i've ever run my cycles at have been 400mg per week of test prop, and 300mg per week on top of that of tren ace.
HOWEVER, in about 4 weeks I am going to be running my first cycle in which I am running tren at a much higher dose and keeping test low to maintain normal function. My plan is 100mg per week test prop (25mg EOD), and 800 per week of tren ace (200mg EOD). I can only imagine the insomnia and night sweats will only be worse at this dose, but I can't wait to try this out and see the difference in making it the primary anabolic. And I only ever run all my cycles 8 weeks max.
900mg of tren 250 mg of tne. I have run tren ed and eod . Ed is the way imoQuote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Great read. A lot to think about especially the tendon repair characteristics. Interestingly I fully ruptured my left pec major tendon on my first cycle ever which included 100mg.tren ace ed(back in my fina conversion days)
interesting....
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk327
The would be an interesting blood test to get. To see what TRENBOLONE(S) do to IGF1 levels. I feel some research coming on.
I actually do have an off cycle blood result of my igf-1 levels after begging my ortho surgeon to test me for gh deficiency in hope maybe he.would prescribe it after reading there is.no clinically established range.for.igf-1 values that would suggest possible gh deficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by ****
I guarantee trenbolones elevation is very minute in comparison to gh and even other natural gh secretogues (sp?)
Im running 200mg tren EOD & 200mg test cyp EW n im a hot sweaty grease bag i notice im winded when i shouldent be i dont sleep well anyways but im really not sleeping well nown my thoughts tend to be on the violent side like in traffic ect ect & this is just a 100mg increase than the normal 100mg EOD i run with test prop but im also taking T-3 100mcg ED for the 1st time ever im sweating like a hebrew slaveQuote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Lol, that would be the tren. I'm running 450 mg weekly. Primary side for me is sweating. Occasionally I don't sleep well but this is less common. I do "snap" a bit more than usual and it's usually in traffic but I generally have little patience on a good day without tren!!!! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by rampaige77
I notice a bit more muscle soreness and fatigue during workouts but it's more annoying than debilitating. Appetite is usually good but I've had a few days where I had to force myself to eat because I didn't feel as hungry as usual, but that varies. Somedays I can't seem to eat enough!!!!!
I'm running 350mg of anavar as well and there have been a few days were it gave me acid reflux but that's hit or miss.
yea my desire to eat is lacking as well , well sounds about like what you described i was just placing blame on the T-3 since ive never used it but ive never used this much tren either , bet your right
I’ve got a lot of questions about that article on which AAS are good and bad for collagen and cross linking.
We’ve almost all read it, and it gets quoted, a lot.
My problem with it is that is never sited any sources. No studies to back it up.
It looked like it was based on Bro-Science or Anecdotal evidence.
It may all be correct, but then again there is a lot there that is QUESTIONABLE.
For example, the assertion that good old testosterone itself lowers collagen synthesis.
Can someone please show me a study that clearly shows this? I will certainly give it a read.
It seems to be common knowledge that testosterone increases GH and IGF-1 Production.
So the conflict here? If it is going to increase growth factors that do effect connective tissues in a positive way, then it stands to reason it actually strengthens tendons.
But wait, aren’t there guys who tear tendons while using test only cycles? Well yeah, lots of them. Then again there are guys who tear tendons using ANY aas, and even guys who tear them who are 100% lifetime natural. The incidence seems to be higher among AAS users. Again, that does not prove cause and effect.
Could it just as easily be that the RATE of growth of tendons is slower than that of muscles? Say a guy has both muscle and tendon that each can handle 150 pounds of resistance. The muscle can suddenly handle 300 pounds and the tendon can now handle 200. There is a problem now when he loads up with 300 pounds and does some low rep heavy weight Branchorilla momentum sets.
There have been some IFBB Pros who are well known to use moderate weight and a higher volume with perfect form approach. These guys tend to have all their original tendon insertions too.
So these does seem to be a clear relationship between training safely vs. hardcoreossity grrr!
On the other hand there are guys who swear that deca “healed” their shoulder/hip/ and gluteal bullet wound.
Do we know for sure deca in and of itself “healed” it?
They used Deca. The pain went away. Does that prove cause and effect?
Lots of guys have also been injured WHILE using Deca too however.
Is it possible it is just making the pain go away? Maybe a combo of the two?
My point is that we do not know for sure.
Real world experience has its uses.
It also has it limitations. One big on is cause and effect. Pain killers can make joints feel great too. They wont prevent injury, but if you used it and just did not happen to get injured you could easily assume that the pain killer healed you too.
Same thing for EQ and Var and the other stuff listed in that article that gets spread all over the bodybuilding forums like a hot chick with daddy issues. I’m not saying this chick does not have her uses, but I would like to know if there is anything wrong with her before hopping on board myself.
Meaning I want to see some studies that actually can confirm or dispel this info about testosterone weakening tendons and EQ and Deca and Var strengthening them before “assuming” this is the case.