45 year old male considering AS for first time needs help choosing best AS option

[miloman66]

Hello out there. I'm 45y.o., 6'5' tall, 215lbs, and about 17% body fat. I've worked out for 10 years just to stay fit never to build muscle before. I've been working hard the last 6 months in an attempt to gain more muscle mass, 3-4 days a week at the gym, my diet's very good...though I feel good gains have been hard to attain so.....I'm considering using AS for the first time and have done a ton of research but am nervous as to what to pick for my first cycle. My goals are this...I'd like to gain another 15 or 20 pounds more muscle mass and have a shot at that 6 pack ab, pumped chest, and very defined muscle groups...I believe my diet's good enough to attain this, I'm hoping an AS cycle or two will help me get there. I'd like to keep side effects at a minimum of course. So as a complete newbee what would you experienced AS users out there recomend for a first time cycle and for a first time PCT base on my goals? Thanks in advance for your advise!

[Permabulk]

Hi there!

My 2 Cents:

15 or 20 lbs of LBM shouldn't be hard on your first cycle, I doubt you would need two if you've never used. I'm thinking a 12 week cycle of a long esther test. like ethanate or cypionate, their essentially interchangable. Also,an oral compound that will jump start your weight and strength in the beggining, and a different one to keep you dry and produce quality LBM at the end of the cycle, such as Winstrol (Stanzolol).

Weeks 1 - 4 D-bol (Methandrostenolone) 30 mg / day
Weeks 1 - 12 Testosterone Cypionate or Testosterone Ethanate 400 mg / wk (Injected bi-weekly)
Weeks 8 - 12 Winstrol (Stanzolol) 40 mg / day
Weeks 15 - 17 Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate) 20 mg /day

Ancillaries:

Milk thistle - "Preload" 500 milligrams / 2x day, the week up until you start


I think that would do it as far as a safe, very effective first cycle. I'm sure you would get everything you were looking for!!

[miloman66]

Hey thanks for your two cents Permabulk....I noticed you put a three week gap between the end of my AS cycle and the PCT of Nolvadex...why is that? Because I've not done this before I have no idea how my body will react, if I see any symptoms of gyno while using the Testoterone Cypionate I assume I should stop using immediately and start the Nolvadex treatment right? Lastly, am fortunate not to have any chest or ab hair, as you can see from my photo, will using Testosterone Cypionate cause any hair growth? I know I can't have it all but I'd like to avoid waxing or shaving if I can. Thanks again for your advise!

[< <Samson> >]

Have you considered GH?

Just wondering due to age. . . .


Lets see what the pros say.

[miloman66]

Hey Samson,

I've not....In reseaching things I didn't think GH would get me the results I was looking for. Again, novice here so maybe I'm wrong about that? I'm interested in the feed back from the pros too.

[yeabuddy]

a simple Test E or Test C cycle would be ideal. 400-500mg/week with a good diet...youll get huge.

like perma said an oral kicker might be good...makes the beginning of the cycle more fun. not neccessary for a first cycle tho.

you should consider running an AI on cycle as well...such as exemestane or anastrozole...that will help with bloating and keep your estrogen levels in check.

[< <Samson> >]

If you do hit a "normal beginner juice cycle" I would just suggest test enan or cyp, unless you think you can handle EOD shots of prop. All with a Ai. . . .

Look at the oral liver toxicity, not worth it IMO.


I dunno, HGH is pretty good shit. But, of course it's expensive and completely different than juice. I have no clue yet on how age correlates to juice or HGH use.

[miloman66]

Anybody have any thoughts on my reply to Permabulk?

[Permabulk]

Hey thanks for your two cents Permabulk....I noticed you put a three week gap between the end of my AS cycle and the PCT of Nolvadex...why is that? Because I've not done this before I have no idea how my body will react, if I see any symptoms of gyno while using the Testoterone Cypionate I assume I should stop using immediately and start the Nolvadex treatment right? Lastly, am fortunate not to have any chest or ab hair, as you can see from my photo, will using Testosterone Cypionate cause any hair growth? I know I can't have it all but I'd like to avoid waxing or shaving if I can. Thanks again for your advise!

The gap is there because there is a 7.5 day half life of the Long estered testosterone. So if you have 1000 mg's in your body (hypothetically), in 7.5 days you would have 500, 7.5 more would be 250, and 7.5 more would be 125. In other words, you are cleaning your self out for the "Healing" of PCT. In your case, you would have about 375 (Don't worry about why, it's complicated) milligrams of testosterone in your body when you stop. So in 7.5 day, 187.5, 7.5 more, 93.75, in 7.5 more 46.875 mg's. Which is about your normal level, and PCT could begin. If you try to start PCT "on" hormones, it simply won't work. You can't heal a cut if it's still split wide open ya know?

Samson_420 (Half baked wins btw) Doesn't it take like 6 months, and alot of moneys worth of GH to "see" anything? I've never used it, but thinking about it, or some peptides. Do you use it? PM me if you do plz.

[miloman66]

Ok, that all makes sense....thanks again.

Last question.....I had asked about the "side effect" of hair growth. I'm lucky I don't have any on my chest or abs which is fantastic for showing my definition off (not to mention my wife likes it) Is significant hair growth on my torso going to be an issue I need to think about before starting this cycle? That's something that would make me think twice....waxing and shaving is not something I'd be excited about having to do.

[600@50]

I wouldn't suggest the Winstrol. You said you had 6 months of hard training. Winny dries out the joints and connective tissue. You may rupture a tendon without a heavier training base. I'd stick to the test only for now. You can add the dbol next cycle. Get blood work and go about this as safely as possible.

[BurntRbr]

I agree with 600@50 on this. Even at a younger age winny tends to make the joint areas feel a little rough. Run the test and dbol in a later cycle.

[miloman66]

Thanks guys, I'll do that.....I'll put off the dbol for a later cycle and just run with the test.

[Permabulk]

Oh shit, I totally didn't see that part about the 6 months of hard training....my bad guys.

And an astounding yes on the hair. I don't even grow facial hair that well, but ever since I took test I have hair growing out of...well everwhere really.

[miloman66]

Hmmmm....I'll have to think about that. Thanks for all your insite Permabulk. I guess I've got to decide...stay lean and hairless or bulked up and hairy.....So is the hair a factor after just one cycle or does it take multiple cycles to become an issue?

[warmouth]

Hopefully the Vets on here will chime in for you on this. Test only is advisable for a first cycle. You can and will get the results on Test with proper diet and training. DO NOT run a test or anything for that matter without an AI. I did this not knowing, and it is stupid. Get fully educated by the vets on here, and if you are comfortable with it, that will be your call. Good luck!

[miloman66]

Thanks warmouth, I had been advised to use Nolvadex after my 12 week cycle was over, is that good enough in your opinion? Or should I be using an AI while cycling and the Nolvadex after as part of my PCT?

[< <Samson> >]

Samson_420 (Half baked wins btw) Doesn't it take like 6 months, and alot of moneys worth of GH to "see" anything? I've never used it, but thinking about it, or some peptides. Do you use it?

No GH for myself, not yet. . . . I am thinking that this is going to be most beneficial when I am older.

[Permabulk]

Hmmmm....I'll have to think about that. Thanks for all your insite Permabulk. I guess I've got to decide...stay lean and hairless or bulked up and hairy.....So is the hair a factor after just one cycle or does it take multiple cycles to become an issue?

I mean, I noticed on the first one, but the more you use the more hair appears. At least for myself.
& I don't want to be an asshole, but is that really a big deal? I mean, if your about to make a decision as large as taking AAS, is a little (or even a lot) of body hair a big deal? I just don't understand I guess..

No GH for myself, not yet. . . . I am thinking that this is going to be most beneficial when I am older.

Interesting. I was under the impression that if a "Bodybuilding" dose was used / enough for massive hyperplasia, age wasn't a crazy big factor. I guess I need to read some more. Do you know of any threads worth reading about it?

[< <Samson> >]

Interesting. I was under the impression that if a "Bodybuilding" dose was used / enough for massive hyperplasia, age wasn't a crazy big factor. I guess I need to read some more. Do you know of any threads worth reading about it?

That is true, if you are younger you need to use more to see results.


Everything I know about GH is from members using it. I haven't really looked into it too deep since it's not a option for myself(maybe in about 15-20 years).

[evander87]

So is the hair a factor after just one cycle or does it take multiple cycles to become an issue?

My back didn't have a sprout of hair until after my 1st cycle of test only. Now my back is like a small forrest.

I'll tell you what though at 45 you push just test and you'll feel like a teenager again. Holy crap it's awesome.

I'd advise a test only cycle for a starter. You have no idea how your body is going to react to compounds and IMHO testosterone, which you produce naturally albeit in small quantities, is the most logical thing to start with.

[miloman66]

Thanks for the advise evander87! I think after reading everything here I'm leaning towards the test only cycle as my first one. I'm going to wait a few weeks to start as I'd like to push my body fat down below 15% before I start....I'm at around 18% right now.

As for the hair...I'm not excited about that aspect being as I've been pretty much hairless on my torso all my life but if I feel as good as everyone says I will and I get the gains I'm looking for I guess I could live with that. Back hair though...really? Ok then....haha! I hope more on my chest and abs then my back....if any at all:-)

[austinite]

Hello out there. I'm 45y.o., 6'5' tall, 215lbs, and about 17% body fat. I've worked out for 10 years just to stay fit never to build muscle before. I've been working hard the last 6 months in an attempt to gain more muscle mass, 3-4 days a week at the gym, my diet's very good...though I feel good gains have been hard to attain so.....I'm considering using AS for the first time and have done a ton of research but am nervous as to what to pick for my first cycle. My goals are this...I'd like to gain another 15 or 20 pounds more muscle mass and have a shot at that 6 pack ab, pumped chest, and very defined muscle groups...I believe my diet's good enough to attain this, I'm hoping an AS cycle or two will help me get there. I'd like to keep side effects at a minimum of course. So as a complete newbee what would you experienced AS users out there recomend for a first time cycle and for a first time PCT base on my goals? Thanks in advance for your advise!

Are you on TRT ?

[austinite]

Hi there!

My 2 Cents:

15 or 20 lbs of LBM shouldn't be hard on your first cycle, I doubt you would need two if you've never used. I'm thinking a 12 week cycle of a long esther test. like ethanate or cypionate, their essentially interchangable. Also,an oral compound that will jump start your weight and strength in the beggining, and a different one to keep you dry and produce quality LBM at the end of the cycle, such as Winstrol (Stanzolol).

Weeks 1 - 4 D-bol (Methandrostenolone) 30 mg / day
Weeks 1 - 12 Testosterone Cypionate or Testosterone Ethanate 400 mg / wk (Injected bi-weekly)
Weeks 8 - 12 Winstrol (Stanzolol) 40 mg / day
Weeks 15 - 17 Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate) 20 mg /day

Ancillaries:

Milk thistle - "Preload" 500 milligrams / 2x day, the week up until you start


I think that would do it as far as a safe, very effective first cycle. I'm sure you would get everything you were looking for!!

Wow. OP, please do not consider this. So many things wrong with it.

[lovbyts]

Oh shit, I totally didn't see that part about the 6 months of hard training....my bad guys.

And an astounding yes on the hair. I don't even grow facial hair that well, but ever since I took test I have hair growing out of...well everwhere really.

Glad it was caught. I was reading down to see if anyone had said anything about that yet. Lets just keep things like they are for a good 1yr+ and go from there. You should have a LOT of room to grow naturally 1st and then do a normal Test only beginner cycle. No need to rush it.

[600@50]

Thanks warmouth, I had been advised to use Nolvadex after my 12 week cycle was over, is that good enough in your opinion? Or should I be using an AI while cycling and the Nolvadex after as part of my PCT?

Get the liquidex from the site sponsor AR-R. For 500mg/week I'd take .25 mg eod or e3d. It's 1 mg per ml so take .25 ml. Good stuff and comes with an oral syringe for measuring. Mix with water or juice. You can adjust as needed. This should fix you up for your AI.

[miloman66]

Hi Austinite,

I'm not on TRT....I haven't taken anything to this point.

[Permabulk]

Wow. OP, please do not consider this. So many things wrong with it.

Really? You should point those things out to me so I can be informed of my mistakes, instead of just making a snide remark.

I didn't see the part about 6 months hard training, so that's one, and I forgot to say keep taking the milk thistle through the cycle, that's two. But other than that, I don't think that cycle warrants a sarcastic "Wow".

He said money was a factor, so I thought milk thistle would be a good, mild hepatic protectorant, with it's anti free radical / antioxidant properties, all at a low cost. The oral doses I suggested were moderately low, and couldn't possibly do any damage. I bent the rules a little bit with the two 17-AA compounds in a cycle, but his goals were to gain mass, and get leaner. Also, there was a 4 week break in between them. The man is 205 lbs. IMO, It would be crazy to say that the suggestion was "Reckless" or ill advised.

I just don't understand what was so bad about it, but I'm more than open to why you feel it was. I'm never against correcting my mistakes.





Also:

Clin J Sport Med. 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9. Related Articles, Links

Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?

erman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.

The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.

OBJECTIVE: There have been numerous reports of hepatic dysfunction secondary to anabolic steroid use based on elevated levels of serum aminotransferases. This study was conducted to distinguish between serum aminotransaminase elevations secondary to intense resistance training and anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity in elite bodybuilders. DESIGN: This was a case-control study of serum chemistry profiles from bodybuilders using and not using anabolic steroids with comparisons to a cohort of medical students and patients with hepatitis. PARTINTS: The partints were bodybuilders taking self-directed regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids (n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n = 49) and exercising and nonexercising medical students (592) were used as controls. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The focus in blood chemistry profiles was aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels. RESULTS: In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated, whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis were the only group in which a correlation was found between aminotransferases and GGT. CONCLUSION: Prior reports of anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity based on elevated aminotransferase levels may have been overstated, because no exercising subjects, including steroid users, demonstrated hepatic dysfunction based on GGT levels. Such reports may have misled the medical community to emphasize steroid-induced hepatotoxicity when interpreting elevated aminotransferase levels and disregard muscle damage. For these reasons, when evaluating hepatic function in cases of anabolic steroid therapy or abuse, CK

Glad it was caught. I was reading down to see if anyone had said anything about that yet. Lets just keep things like they are for a good 1yr+ and go from there. You should have a LOT of room to grow naturally 1st and then do a normal Test only beginner cycle. No need to rush it.

Scan, not skim right? Lmao, yeah that was dumb. & ^ This, This, This. 6 months just isn't enough time milo, you should really reconsider.

[austinite]

Really? You should point those things out to me so I can be informed of my mistakes, instead of just making a snide remark.

You're right. I should have pointed those things out. For that I apologize, so here we go...

You recommended 3 compounds for a 1st time user. This is not recommended for several reasons, for example, OP need to know how he reacts to Test, 1st. After running a couple test only cycles, then he can start adding compounds. That way he will know exactly what compound is causing what sides.

You did not mention anything about an AI to take on cycle. PCT of Nolva for 3 weeks @ 20mg would not suffice, not even with your proposed cycle. PCT should be Clomid and Nolva.

Milk thistle is junk and will not make a significant difference.

Dbol is not recommended for a 1st cycle. Furthermore; introducing a second oral compound 4 weeks later is not a good idea, the liver will not be happy, especially when it's getting teased with the Milk Thistle.

His first cycle should be Test E only at 500mg EW for 12 weeks. Ai (adex) @ .25 EOD and PCT of Nolva and clomid. HCG would be an option ON cycle as well.

OP doesnt know his body on AAS at all. And pumping all that into it from the get go is just not a good idea.

[Permabulk]

Dually noted. I don't see eye to eye on your views of hepatoxicity, as I don't think 17-AA's are as bad as people make them out to be.

But I honestly appriciate the constructive criticism, and in the future will keep all of that stuff in mind.