Would thier ever be a need to run something like Clomid during a cycle?
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Would thier ever be a need to run something like Clomid during a cycle?
probably not
I've read studies on endurance atheletes and moderate/ high dosages of clomidiphene citrate. It was responsible for more areobic ability, so maybe if you're competing in endurance sports... other than that i cant think of anything
no. it's a serm and is used at the end of cycle to increase the production of gonadotropins during recovery (pct)Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand5599
Clomid sucks and I wouldn't use it at all. I wouldn't even use it if you paid me to.
Unless you want visual disturbances as a side effect (and risk of permanent visual damage), hot flashes, emotional rollercoasters, and overall spending stupid amounts of money on a SERM that is far more inferior in every way to Nolvadex (and is far more expensive than nolvadex)... then go ahead, use Clomid.
See this thread here and my responses within it to see the facts about Clomid and how it pales in comparison to Nolvadex: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct
clomid and nolva are two completely different animals bro ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
but i hear ya on your less than desirable experience. some guys don't do well on it.
Clomiphene Citrate-
Increases production of gonadotropins by inhibiting negative feedback on the hypothalamus. It is also used in female infertility. Clomiphene has estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects in the body. It also appears to stimulate the release of gonadotropins, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), and leuteinizing hormone (LH).[2] Dosing of 30-100mg daily seems the norm for PCT use.
Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex )-
Tamoxifen is usually used as an endocrine (anti-estrogen) therapy for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer in women. It is an antagonist of the estrogen receptor in the breast, while in other tissues it acts as an agonist sort of like how Clomid does.[3] Half-life is about 6 days, so ed to eod dosing is best for PCT use. 20-50mg daily seems the norm for this.
Clomid and Nolva are not completely different, they are the exact same things. They are both SERMs. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. They both block estrogen at breast tissue receptor sites, and they both cause release of gonadotropins in the body. Nolvadex does both of these jobs far better. Please see the links to research I posted in that thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyKnox
And by the way, it is an extremely common misconceptoin that they are two different types of compounds.
This originated because Clomid was the original main compound used very extensively for treating female (and male) infertility, raising endogenous hormone production, spermatogenesis, and ovogenesis. Because this compound was primarily used for these functions, naturally the AAS using community a long time ago (circa 1980s) when searching for compounds that would restore endogenous testosterone production after a cycle, looked at Clomid before anything else. And it stuck. However, not very many people seemed to pay attention to a study in the 1970s (which I cite in that thread I linked you to) in which Nolvadex was demonstrated to be far more effective than Clomid at not only restoring endogenous hormone production, but also acting as an estrogen receptor antagonist in breast tissue. And this wasn't by a small margin either - Nolvadex's abilities DWARFED Clomid in these particular areas.
Unfortunately, it has taken the AAS-using and bodybuilding community a very long time to realize this, but thankfully people are catching on now in greater numbers that Clomid is not only pitifully effective in comparison to Nolvadex, but it carries many side effects that Nolvadex does not have. However, much of the whole current Clomid use that still goes on is nearly all due to people just following something someone told them. You know how it is, someone passes on to someone else that "Clomid is what should be used for PCT, no Nolvadex", and then that person passes it on to some one else, and so on and so forth.
What i'm trying to do is put a big huge STOP to that by showing people the raw data and evidence that Clomid is outdated as a SERM and a PCT compound, and that Nolvadex is the compound that should really be used for both purposes. And it's far cheaper to do so as well.... so I don't see why more people don't do exactly that. The reason is that not everyone knows about this. People are still stuck in this thinking that Nolvadex and Clomid are two TOTALLY different things. They're not! They are the same things. They are twin compounds.
i agree with most of what you posted but nolva does not prevent the aromatization, it acts as an estrogen antagonist. clomid on the other hand deactivates most of the increased estrogen and prevents it from attaching to the receptors.
That's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyKnox
Where are you getting this information?
Clomid is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator), not an AI (Aromatase Inhibitor). You are confusing Clomid with AIs. Yes, Clomid prevents estrogen from attaching to its receptors. But, how does Clomid 'deactivate' increased estrogen? This is not possible at all. Please provide me with some sources to back up this statement.
SERMs block, not lower estrogen, nor do they 'deactivate' serum Estrogen...
I cannot believe the amount of misunderstanding around here concerning this! Clomid and Nolvadex are mixed antagonists/agonists of the ER (Estrogen Receptor) in all kinds of different tissues in the body. Clomid is more of an agonist than Nolvadex is in certain tissues, but not breast tissue where Nolvadex is more effective. It's known that Clomid acts as an agonist in certain parts of the brain that control emotion, hence the emotiuonal sides experienced.
Both are antagonists in breast tissue and the hypothaalamus (hence the serum Testosterone increase) but its postulated Tamoxifen is more an an antagonist at the pituitary and Clomid an agonist. Both seem to be agonists in the liver and other selective tissues.
If you wish to lower estrogen, you'de need to invest in an AI (Aromotase Inhibitor). They inhibit the enzyme aromotase which is responsible for converting testosterone to estrogen.
You need to do more research on SERMs Clomid and Nolvadex, and you need to do more research on the difference between SERMs and AIs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
im not debating which one is better suited for YOU. im a proponent of both. what i am stating is that clomid and nolva are different, not that one is "better" than the other. it appears that you have had a less than desirable experience and have decide not to use clomid again - youre entitled to that and i won't argue that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
are you suggesting that the majority of this membership, including vets and those more experience than you, have no clue about pct or the functions of clomid and nolva on the HPTA, hypothalamus, pituitary and LH......but you do?
anyway this is a partial q&a that i found interesting and have had since last year but i think you may find it carries some weight as to what i was referring to earlier. sadly i don't have the link to accompany it.
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.
Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.
In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.
You are correct in that Clomid and Nolvadex are different in the same sense that Arimidex and Aromasin are different. I repeatedly stated that the two are in the same class of drug, and are more like twin brothers in their relation to one naother... much like Aromasin and Arimidex, which are classed as Aromatase Inhibitors with slight differences. And, I did not say that the majority of this membership has no clue about PCT or the functions of Clomid and Nolva, but I instead stated that I have been running into a lot of members as of late who ascribe to the particular sentiment that Clomid is somehow better for stimulating gonadotropin release from the pituitary gland. It's not! I've cited references to the research that proves that exact sentiment wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyKnox
And I will say that the majority of AAS-users are grossly mistaken about this in thinking that Clomid is the superior drug at doing so.
I think we're agreeing on almost everything here, and we misunderstood each other on simple terminology and descriptions of these compounds. I'm curious as to what in particular you think Clomid has a viable use for that Nolvadex doesn't already have (or that Nolvadex doesn't have a stronger effect on)?
clomid used during the off time and between cycles can actually increase your test levels by well over 100% It gets me to about 160% of natural levels on 25 mg per day.
wish I had known to stay on it during my off time sooner!
clomid could also be used replacement for hcg during the cycle if maintaining testicular size is the goal(i belive hcg works better). Shut down is shut down so neither clomid nor hcg is going to get you producing testosterone while using!
Many doctors will actually prescribe clomid now to their patients before moving on to shots etc.
It is particular interest to those with damaged hpta since it has healed some guys in some instances. In other words they stayed on clomid long enouh that they can kickstart their own natty production again!
i seen studies where guys were on aas cycles for 5yrs str8 and then running clomid (fertility clinics) for long period of time 1yr and having kids. clomid is under estimated by many ppl.
as for clomid on cycle, try it! Sometimes we are a product of our times and there is no changing that!
It really is a useful, thoroughly tested compound that has stood the test of many decades not just a single study done on midgets from Malaysia
nolva have been shown to boost test levels the thing is nolva also lowers your IGF levels which to anyone building muscle is a big no-no!! but for some people it will still be a better choice