Is their really any point to use AAS if you dont plan on staying on?

**thex95** · 07-31-2012, 01:32 PM

This thread is aimed towards the "recreational user" of AAS and not so much the guys who use AAS to compete.

I have been thinking about this issue more and more lately and the more I contemplate the issue the more I lean towards saying "no, their isn't a point". With the increasing amount of research I do on AAS every day I keep reaching the same conclusion that when you're "on" your big and muscular, and when your "off" your pretty much not, and the longer your off the more you retract to your previous composition before using anabolic steroids .

I know lots of people consider themselves the "recreational user". the type of person that does not plan on competing but would like to add some serious muscle so they do a cycle. While on guys usually receive a plethora of complements and it's an awesome ego boost. Then you go off, do PCT and more often than not end up ALMOST back to where you were.

I know there is tons of threads relating to "how to keep gains" however, it's seems overwhelmingly that if you want to keep gains you have to either blast and cruise or just keep doing cycle after cycle. So if the recreational user only wants to do one or two cycles are they not just "renting" the muscle instead of actually making maintainable gains?

For the recreational user using AAS seems extremely short sighted. If you're just going to end up looking like you did before cycling then really what's the point? Do most recreational users on here (which I believe is the large majority of this forum) just cycle to look big at the time full well knowing that long periods of time "off" regardless of diet and training will simply result in returning to their previous state?

I could be totally off on this whole thing as well. Perhaps people can only do two cycles, gain an aggregate of 20-25 lbs of muscle and maintain 10-15, or maybe they will lose it all over time?

I just keep thinking about the long term and considering all the variables. It seems like a recreational user exposes them self to a lot of long term risk both legal and health related for short term gains in size and strength?
What does everyone on here think about this issue? I would really like to hear from some well experienced members too.

This thread is in no way meant to pass judgement on people and their choices about using AAS. The sole purpose of this thread is to gather opinions on the issue at hand.

**Trying-Hard** · 07-31-2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by thex95

. Then you go off, do PCT and more often than not end up ALMOST back to where you were.

Recreational users can also be hard trainers who are serious about gaining and maintaining muscle. Knowing that, I am guessing that when this type of user gets off and undergoes proper PCT along with proper diet and training, they would maintain 50-60% of their gains. Obviously once they stop dieting and training and let themselves go, they will go back to their natural state before cycling, but this is universally true to any person, heavy AAS user or not.

Of course this is just my guess as I have never cycled before, but it just seems logical (at least to me, lol)

**rasc170** · 07-31-2012, 01:49 PM

if you havent hit your genetic potential yet, you can maintain a lot of those gains and theoretically keep them as long as you keep training and have diet in order

**Judah** · 07-31-2012, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Recreational users can also be hard trainers who are serious about gaining and maintaining muscle. Knowing that, I am guessing that when this type of user gets off and undergoes proper PCT along with proper diet and training, they would maintain 50-60% of their gains. Obviously once they stop dieting and training and let themselves go, they will go back to their natural state before cycling, but this is universally true to any person, heavy AAS user or not.

Of course this is just my guess as I have never cycled before, but it just seems logical (at least to me, lol)

100% correct.

It's not a matter of losing what you gained becasue you stop using AS. You lose gains when you stop training and eating correctly. Do you keep all your gains after an AS cycle...NO. Can you keep a majority of your gains...short answer is yes. What is the exception...very simple...your body has a "genetic max" you can reach that max with AS or natrually. Very few people reach their max, so most can maintain gains after using AS. If you have reached your "gentetic max" and you use AS to push beyond your "genetic max" then yes, you will lose most if not all gains when you stop AS use, always reverting back to your "genetic max".

**dbw1968** · 07-31-2012, 02:14 PM

I have asked the same question on here not to long ago. I too pondered doig a cycle for the same reason on not wanting to be a lifetime user. I am 43 and I am on the 8th week of a very simply test e only cycle and for me it was a great decision. I am in the best .shape of my life and have made a body transformation. I will start my PCT in a few weeks and I guess I will know pretty soon after that if it was worth it. I too am curious to see if my body shrinks back to normal after I quit pinning, but I am hopeful tjat I can keep most of my gains through continued hard work. I will give an update in a couple of months to share wif I think a one and done cycle was worth it. Whatever you decide good luck on your endeavors.

**chuckt12345** · 07-31-2012, 02:21 PM

if your at your genetic potential you are going to lose most of your gains from AAS. So apart from being strong and lookin good for the few months your on there prb is no point of aas. But its never that simple,, most who do one cycle will continue to use it.

**thex95** · 07-31-2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by chuckt12345

if your at your genetic potential you are going to lose most of your gains from AAS. So apart from being strong and lookin good for the few months your on there prb is no point of aas. But its never that simple,, most who do one cycle will continue to use it.

see this is kind of what I was thinking. I beleive the ideal candidate to use aas is someone who has already reached their genetic max, or else why wouldnt they just train naturally until they do? So really the person who has reached that genetic max and would only be willing to do 1-3 cycles should just avoid aas all together.

**BlueWaffle21** · 07-31-2012, 02:55 PM

I swore I would never cycle but there comes a time when you just don't feel like you used to!! Having this first cycle under my belt and feeling young again, I can see steroids being a part of my life for quite a long time!! For me it's the feeling of being a strong powerful man again. I train in 6xl's and wear 3xl's daily so I don't get many compliments and thats fun because that is not why I do it!!

**Trying-Hard** · 07-31-2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by chuckt12345

if your at your genetic potential you are going to lose most of your gains from AAS. So apart from being strong and lookin good for the few months your on there prb is no point of aas. But its never that simple,, most who do one cycle will continue to use it.

There has got to be a flaw in this logic, no?

I mean if a person who has reached thier genetic muscle potential will lose all thier gains from AAS, then why do all the vets ALWAYS recommend the skinny fellas to get bigger prior to using AS? I mean if this is the case, then heck, i'd much rather get from 140-180 in 1 year using AAS and keep my gains versus get to 180 naturally in 5 years and then get to 200 using AS and lose all of it when injections stop.

Something just doesn't add up, IMO.

**Judah** · 07-31-2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by thex95

see this is kind of what I was thinking. I beleive the ideal candidate to use aas is someone who has already reached their genetic max, or else why wouldnt they just train naturally until they do? So really the person who has reached that genetic max and would only be willing to do 1-3 cycles should just avoid aas all together.

A good example of it being uselful for those alteady at their genetic max is athletes who want and edge during season.

Most people that have reached their genetic max are elite athletes and body builders. Body builders are always "on" typically doing what's called " blasting and cruising"

If you have not reached your genetic max, you can keep a lot of your gains after a cycle. Most don't eat correcty after a cycle. They are afraid to get fat. You need to contunue to flood your body with clean calories and even consider increasing your calories post cycle for 2 to 3 months to protect those hard earned gains.

**Judah** · 07-31-2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

There has got to be a flaw in this logic, no?

I mean if a person who has reached thier genetic muscle potential will lose all thier gains from AAS, then why do all the vets ALWAYS recommend the skinny fellas to get bigger prior to using AS? I mean if this is the case, then heck, i'd much rather get from 140-180 in 1 year using AAS and keep my gains versus get to 180 naturally in 5 years and then get to 200 using AS and lose all of it when injections stop.

Something just doesn't add up, IMO.

That answer is very simple. Someone who is "skinny" as you put it, has not learned how to eat and train correctly. It's pointless to do a cycle if you have not learned to achieve gains naturally. This is exactly the type of person who will lose all their gains post cycle. Does that make sense?

**Times Roman** · 07-31-2012, 03:04 PM

many of us here have been doing this for a good chunk of our lives. intensity may come and go, but during the intense periods, as long as everything is in check, then why not?

**noon** · 07-31-2012, 03:10 PM

Again great info. I am hoping to do many cycles in the years to come in just getting started and feel that I was very close to my max gains from all natural means. so I would hate to think that any gains will be lost over time

**Judah** · 07-31-2012, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by noon

Again great info. I am hoping to do many cycles in the years to come in just getting started and feel that I was very close to my max gains from all natural means. so I would hate to think that any gains will be lost over time

I'm not doubting you, but I think you would be surprised what your max genetic potential is. Forget about dedication, focus, blah blah blah... most people don't have the time in the day to do what they need to do to reach their genetic max.

**Trying-Hard** · 07-31-2012, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Judah

That answer is very simple. Someone who is "skinny" as you put it has not learned how to eat and traine correctly. It's pointless to do a cycle if you don't have not learned to achieve gains naturally. This is exactly the type of person who will lose all their gains post cycle. Does that make sense?

Sure, that makes sense. You are refering to a skinny person who doesn't know how to eat as the one to lose their gains due to the lack of knowledge of training and diet - we agree.

But what doesn't make sense to me is that a 180 lbs person that is natural and knows how to eat and train decides to go on a cycle and gets to 200 lbs, but then loses it all after not injecting any more depsite continuing with a strong diet / training routine. This doesn't make sense to me.

I mean if this is true, I feel that it is more of a penalty to work hard and get to your natural potential before cycling - and just typing that out doesn't make any sense to me.

**Judah** · 07-31-2012, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Sure, that makes sense. You are refering to a skinny person who doesn't know how to eat as the one to lose their gains due to the lack of knowledge of training and diet - we agree.

But what doesn't make sense to me is that a 180 lbs person that is natural and knows how to eat and train decides to go on a cycle and gets to 200 lbs, but then loses it all after not injecting any more depsite continuing with a strong diet / training routine. This doesn't make sense to me.

I mean if this is true, I feel that it is more of a penalty to work hard and get to your natural potential before cycling - and just typing that out doesn't make any sense to me.

I think there is a little confusion here. What I'm saying is, regardless of your current stats and expeince, if your losing most or all your gains after a cycle and your not at your gentetic max, then your doing something wrong. Yes there are exception. Some people have terrible gentetics lol. Yes, you will not look as "good" off, nobody does...but you will have a net net gain after the cycle if your doing what your suppose to and are not yet at your genetic max

**MuscleInk** · 07-31-2012, 03:23 PM

This topic has come up before and discussed in detail. Judah is right, how much you gain and sustain has MORE to do with diet and exercise. Anyone who thinks taking a bunch of pills or injections will make them the next Mr. Olympia is severly misgiuded and misinformed. The problem is, many guys (young and old) look at the pros and assume, steroids , steroids, steroids. It's much more than stuffing pills down your pie hole or a needle in your arse (or whereever else you choose to jab yourself). I get so pi$$ed off at the guys who blow off diet as unimportant. There is are reason we emphasize diet and exercise so much on this forum and its not to hear ourselves speak. A solid nutrition plan (and I'm not talking about a trip to Wendy's for a hamburger, fries, and a shake - Razor!!!!!) where your macros are laid out to achieve AND sustain your strength and muscle gains is FAR more important than any gear you run. Diet and exercise are the fundamental basics. Get these correct and stay committed and THEN gear will push your gains further and be sustainable. Failure to commit to diet and exercise will set you up for failure everytime. It's not rocket science but too many guys figure the juice is all you need only to be disappointed when the great gains they observed on cycle start to disappear off cycle.

**thex95** · 07-31-2012, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

This topic has come up before and discussed in detail. Judah is right, how much you gain and sustain has MORE to do with diet and exercise. Anyone who thinks taking a bunch of pills or injections will make them the next Mr. Olympia is severly misgiuded and misinformed. The problem is, many guys (young and old) look at the pros and assume, steroids, steroids, steroids. It's much more than stuffing pills down your pie hole or a needle in your arse (or whereever else you choose to jab yourself). I get so pi$$ed off at the guys who blow off diet as unimportant. There is are reason we emphasize diet and exercise so much on this forum and its not to hear ourselves speak. A solid nutrition plan (and I'm not talking about a trip to Wendy's for a hamburger, fries, and a shake - Razor!!!!!) where your macros are laid out to achieve AND sustain your strength and muscle gains is FAR more important than any gear you run. Diet and exercise are the fundamental basics. Get these correct and stay committed and THEN gear will push your gains further and be sustainable. Failure to commit to diet and exercise will set you up for failure everytime. It's not rocket science but too many guys figure the juice is all you need only to be disappointed when the great gains they observed on cycle start to disappear off cycle.

Good read for news guys on here, everything you say is true and I agree with it all. However this really didn't hit on the main point of the thread. I am talking about users returning to their pre stearoids composition after being off for a long time with diet and training both in check.

**MuscleInk** · 07-31-2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by thex95

Good read for news guys on here, everything you say is true and I agree with it all. However this really didn't hit on the main point of the thread. I am talking about users returning to their pre stearoids composition after being off for a long time with diet and training both in check.

Ok.....assuming diet and training are well designed and maintained, naturally there would be some reduction in strength and size. Often one can achieve supraphysiological levels of hormones using AAS that would be unlikely/impossible naturally. As an example, on my first cycle, my testosterone spiked to 3500. Off cycle I'm usually around 450-550. At 3500 you would expect considerable size and strength gains, again assuming nutrition and training are in check. At 450 there are noticeable changes in strength and some volume but it's certainly not a return to baseline. Moreover, the reality is, few people (if any) cycle just once, so with subsequent cycles, strength and growth would once again be on the incline. At my age I would have not had the growth I did naturally and although off cycle there is a slight decline, I'm further ahead with than without the use of hormone supplementation.

**thex95** · 07-31-2012, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Ok.....assuming diet and training are well designed and maintained, naturally there would be some reduction in strength and size. Often one can achieve supraphysiological levels of hormones using AAS that would be unlikely/impossible naturally. As an example, on my first cycle, my testosterone spiked to 3500. Off cycle I'm usually around 450-550. At 3500 you would expect considerable size and strength gains, again assuming nutrition and training are in check. At 450 there are noticeable changes in strength and some volume but it's certainly not a return to baseline. Moreover, the reality is, few people (if any) cycle just once, so with subsequent cycles, strength and growth would once again be on the incline. At my age I would have not had the growth I did naturally and although off cycle there is a slight decline, I'm further ahead with than without the use of hormone supplementation.

right on man. I like the "hormone supplementation" phrase as well, thats awesome. If I ever cycle again I am going to say I am using harmone supplements instead of saying I'm on steroids .

**thex95** · 07-31-2012, 09:17 PM

.................

**Test pilot** · 07-31-2012, 11:25 PM

I posted in thex95's other thread, so I will keep this one shorter. In my limited experience, there are long term changes to your physique that persist after AAS and even after a lapse in training and/or diet. I'm a little happier with my body after each cycle. Fat and muscle distribution seem to change, so I have a better waistline and broader shoulders, without my overall stats changing much. But that's just me, your gear may vary...

**Shadowmaker** · 08-01-2012, 09:46 AM

i have never wanted to be a lifetime user myself, but i know that at least once a year i will want to do a cycle just because i like the tablets and the needles and those oils and stuff(some strange fetish maybe?)... but for now, i see that i mostly keep all the wanted and planed gains... of course - you will always be bigger and stronger on the cycle, and after the cycle you will weigh like 10lbs more than you can normally maintain, but you just have to know that and be ok with that...
its more of a mental thing - if you get some gains and you think that its your muscle, then when you lose it, you will feel bad... for me - i just see the weight and the first tough on my mind is, for example : "so, i weight 240 now... i gues that would be like 230lbs normal weigh then..." if i weight 230 when all the cycle-water has been flushed away, im happy and ready to maintain it.