This is what I figured even though I brought it up in another thread and was told I should run an AI anyways.
If I'm taking an AI with my small TRT dose would it completely kill my estrogen levels?
This is what I figured even though I brought it up in another thread and was told I should run an AI anyways.
If I'm taking an AI with my small TRT dose would it completely kill my estrogen levels?
I can't say if you definitely would, but you have a higher chance of doing so, yes. As i've mentioned many times, one of the ideas behind TRT dose Testosterone on a cycle is to minimize the need to take an AI. You maintain normal bodily function with close to normal physiological levels and thats it.
Of course, it's a different story if you're using TRT dose of test with other things like dbol or something like that. But I don't even need to explain the concept behind a scenario like that, people should already understand.
This post give some help to me thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
at atomini i am a beginner first cycle this is what i am gona do wot do you think ??
Testosterone-Enanthate
Dianabol
Nolvadex
1
500mg
25mg Every Day
2
500mg
25mg Every Day
3
500mg
25mg Every Day
4
500mg
25mg Every Day
5
500mg
25mg Every Day
6
500mg
25mg Every Day
7
500mg
8
500mg
9
500mg
10
500mg
11
500mg
12
500mg
13
14
15
40mg Every Day
16
40mg Every Day
17
20mg Every Day
so good having people like you on here
Hey mate, thanks for everything u have done for me and everyone else first off.
In terms of diet and tren, ive been doing a slow body recomp, gaining lean mass and losing 1 lb of fat aprox a week. with the addition of tren should i keep to the same diet mindset or should i get above maintance. ? or is tren no different, cutting still is 1005 diet controled.
Thank you.
Cutting is ALWAYS diet controlled. Is it still possible to burn a bit of fat when above maintenance while on something like Trenbolone? Yes, it is possible - but only if your caloric surplus is not very large. Every anabolic steroid - but Trenbolone more so than nearly all others - have a strong nutrient partitioning effect. This means that they cause your body to shuttle more nutrients towards muscle building and muscle growth rather than towards fat storage. Of course, this doesn't mean 100% of your intake will go towards muscle growth and 0% towards fat storage. Get that surplus high enough and you WILL put on fat, no matter how much Trenbolone or any AAS you use. This is why I am not in support of some of the ridiculously high surpluses i've seen people around here do (stuff like 1,000, 1,500, and even as high or higher than 2,500 cal surpluses)... that's just REDICULOUS! Most of us don't need that kind of surplus, and if you do that while on 5,00000000000000000mg of Trenbolone, YOU WILL STILL PUT ON FAT GUARANTEED. Keep things smart and simple. If you want to purely get leaner and cut without risk of any of the surplus going towards fat storage, keep your cals in the deficit.
Cut or gain? Pick one and stick with it. Don't flipflip or try to stay in the middle, even when on AAS.
yeah this is very true and i know to stay on one path, just making sure i wasnt missing anything. im very close to my goal anyways so perhaps i will sit at maintance and see how i travel and watch my body and measuremnets.
thanks mate!!!
i guess in hind sight , ive had the whole, you gotta eat to grow on aas hammered into my skull and always worry about whats teh point of cycling if im not gonna eat to grow, but i DONT wanna bulk. so i guess as long as my strength is going up and im looking good.. win win. im just curious what happens coming off a cycle like this where i don't have water weight and fat to contend with during pct and after.
Hey Atomini, great thread. I had a quick question. I've run cycles in the past that were just Test and I've now decided to try Tren Ace (at 200mg/wk) for my next cycle along with 600 mg/wk of Test. Normally, I would start aromasin (.5mg ED) and HCG (500iu/wk = 250iu on M/T) about 10-14 days into my cycle. Can I still do this despite the fact that I now have the addition of Tren Ace in my cycle or should I start even sooner (ie Day 1)? I'm starting Prami on the first day of my cycle and was wondering if I can start aromasin and HCG along with it?
Also, off topic. Great to hear of another aspiring doctor on the board.
You can still do as you planned, starting both 10-14 days in. I don't see that as a problem. The only thing I might be able to suggest is to start the Aromasin on day 1, if you're using 600mg/week of Testosterone. Just to keep estrogen under control from the start, and that's my reason for suggesting that.
Excellent post, well written. Thanks for your contribution to the site Atomini!
if you already have slight prolaction induced gyno, will caber reverse it?
It should. However, also be aware of your estrogen levels as well. Controlling your estrogen levels are key to controlling the rising prolactin as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabolick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Oo thanks , but is it possible to reverse it by simply taking an AI as well? My new cycle will be arriving shortly and I have A-dex....
I assume that you're talking about prevention, not reversal though :/
It would be possible, yes. But the quickest course of action, if you already have lactating nipples plus gyno formation, is to immediately take a prolactin antagonist (like Caber) along with an AI at the same time.
Solid information Atomini. Great write up.
I am Shane from Canada,
I've read most of your articles and posts, also regarding the PCT one's, so I need you to look at my cycle here :)
I am going to start my first ever cycle next week and need your confirmation for that: (I am not going with any other AAS steriods except: Tren Ace, Test Prop, I am just going to cycle them one after the other)
This is how my cycle looks like:
Week 1(Cutting Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 2(Cutting Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 3(Bulking Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 4(Bulking Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 5(Bulking Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 6(Bulking Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 7(Cutting Diet):Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 8(Cutting Diet): Tren Ace 250mg, Test Prop 100mg, Caber 1mg per week, HCG once every week
Week 9(Bulking Diet): HCG once every week
Week 10(Bulking Diet): HCG once every week
Week 12(Bulking Diet): PCT, Nolva 20 mg per week
Week 13(Bulking Diet): PCT, Nolva 20 mg per week
Week 14(Bulking Diet): PCT, Nolva 10 mg per week
Week 15(Cutting Diet): PCT, Nolva 10 mg per week
Any corrections, please let me know!
Why the decision to use Tren in your very first ever cycle?
Your use of HCG is also pretty erratic and I don't understand it. Nor is it even necessary what so ever.
Bulking, cutting, bulking, cutting, bulking, cutting, bulking, cutting? Pick one goal for this cycle and stick with it. Don't flip flop like that.
PCT should ideally be Nolvadex at 40mg for the first 2 weeks, and then down to 20mg for the last 2 weeks.
Don't start cycling just yet. You need to do A LOT more research before starting AAS.
Thanks for the reply Atomini!
But I've already done a lot of research for Tren, I've known people running Tren Ace on their very first cycle and getting good results. The only thing it depends on is how much you run it at! I've read a lot if Tren's run at 250mg/week, you won't get most of the sides if you considering it running at a higher doses.
I am using HCG to avoid testicular atrophy.
Talking about the Bulking/Cutting phases, I tend to put a lot of fat easily. I want to ensure that my body gets the best lean gains possible. Personally, when I do the bulking/cutting phases, I don't change my protein intake. Its always the same: 250g-300g of protein. All I change is high carb and low carb proportions.
I've read your PCT posts, it said Nolvadex at 40mg will do the same at 20mg?
I too know people who have run Trenbolone in their first ever cycles, and they did very well with no issues - but they are the exception and not the rule. Just make sure you're careful, and aware of what side effects may be caused by Tren and how to deal with them. I still do not reccomend using it on a first cycle, however. You're jumping into the deeper end of the pool right off the bat. But at least your doses are sensible, considering the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by shanebrock93
You have not stated what your HCG dose is. Also, you're using it right from week 1? And I don't reccomend you use it what so ever anyways. This is your very first cycle, and you don't even know if you are prone to testicular atrophy. Most people don't even experience it, let alone on what is considered a short cycle (8 weeker). 8 weeks being on the short end should provide a window for your HPTA to recover faster and easier than longer cycles people have done. In short, your plan to use HCG is a waste of money, and you don't need it. Why don't you run this cycle WITHOUT it, and observe whether or not you are prone to testicular atrophy. If you do get it (which would typically be WEEKS into your cycle IF you do get it), you can easily start the HCG several weeks in... and even so, i'd like to add that your testicles will return to normal size during PCT anyhow even without HCG. If you don't get testicular atrophy, there's no need to be using HCG. I believe HCG isn't a requirement at all for anything, and should only be used if you are having the utmost trouble getting your testosterone levels back up. I think you are falling into the usual trap that a lot of beginners do whereby you are getting scared by some of the things you are reading (in this case, testicular atrophy) and freaking out over what to take to 'prevent' it. This is not unlike how people will go out and start buying 5-alpha reductase inhibitors and all these other things because they're afraid of every side effect under the sun. If doses are sensible and cycle lengths kept short, most of these side effects shouldn't even see the light of day.
The biggest problem I find people run into is that when they are new to this world of AAS, they do a lot of research (which is of course a good thing). But the problem is that they read everything with extreme contexts and start to freak out. People will read about how most AAS convert into estrogen and DHT on cycle, and how it will suppress the body's endogenous hormone production, etc. So then they freak out and think they need to buy copious amounts of aromatase inhibitors, SERMs, 5-AR blockers, shoot HCG into themselves every day on cycle, and literally try to combat EVERY SINGLE THING that they read about. I have to tell these people "whoa, calm down and just take a step back for a second and look at the big picture". You need to realize this is why we start first cycles with testosterone -only, and start things slow so you can gauge how you react to it. Not everyone will get gyno , not everyone will get acne, etc. etc. and so you must learn what YOU need to do. If you just go off and buy every single blocker of everything, and run it on your first cycle... how will you ever know if you are even sensitive at all to these side effects you're attempting to block? The answer is you don't know! You could be wasting your money buying all these ancilliaries and running them at full blast doses to block side effects you aren't even prone to! This is where we use logic and reason when we plan cycles and do research, etc.
My personal opinion is that I see far too many people excessively relying on HCG in the first place. It is very easy to destroy your body's endogenous LH secretion with it (by both desensitizing your leydig cells in the testes, as well as halting endogenous LH and FSH secretion), and is one of the reasons why I strongly advise against its constant use while on-cycle . IF HCG were to be used at all, I advise only during the first week or so of PCT to give the testes a jumpstart (see 'steroid.com PCT' in the PCT forum) - that's IT. I'm telling you, drop the HCG. You don't even know if you're prone to testicular atrophy yet, let alone all the other issues that constant on-cycle HCG use presents.
You are corrent, studies have shown that doubling the 20mg dose doesn't show much more improvement in stimulating the pituitary to produce LH and FSH. But keep it at 20mg through your whole pct, don't lower it to 10mg.Quote:
Originally Posted by shanebrock93
Thanks Atomini!
Now this is the one side of the coin. That is, I am starting my first cycle with Tren Ace. Now I want your help with putting on cycle if I am not running Tren Ace. I want to go alone just with Test Prop then. Here is my cycle with Test Prop:
Week 1(Cutting Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 2(Cutting Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 3(Bulking Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 4(Bulking Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 5(Bulking Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 6(Bulking Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 7(Cutting Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 8(Cutting Diet): Test Prop 500mg, Caber 1mg per week
Week 9(Bulking Diet): HCG once every week (250iu) to give my testes a jump start
Week 10(Bulking Diet): HCG once every week (250iu)
Week 12(Bulking Diet): PCT, Nolva 20mg per week
Week 13(Bulking Diet): PCT, Nolva 20mg per week
Week 14(Bulking Diet): PCT, Nolva 20mg per week
Week 15(Cutting Diet): PCT, Nolva 20mg per week
Should I be using AI (Caber) with Test Prop?
I am thinking about taking Tren Ace on my second cycle then. But after how long do you recommend I should start my Tren Ace cycle after the PCT of my first cycle?
You can go ahead and use Tren Ace in your first cycle... its up to you. I believe you chosen dosages are reasonable. However, deciding to try Tren Ace on your second cycle is a better overall choice
If you are going to run Test Prop only, then you don't need the Caber. It's only necessary with Tren. Caber is also not an AI. An AI is Aromasin, for example. I think you need to put a stop to any plans of doing any cycles and do a lot more research before you begin anything.
As far as PCT goes, HCG shouldn't be done once a week. Jumpstart your testes by doing 500iu every day for approx the first 10 days of your PCT. Make sure to run it with Aromasin with it at 25mg/day while you do the HCG, and then stop it when you stop the HCG. This is because HCG increases aromatase activity and you will have increased risk of estrogen-related side effects (once again, go to the PCT forum and see 'PCT by steroid.com'). This PCT can be done after any type of cycle, it's a very good PCT.
Hey Atomini,
How about this, I cycle Test Prop with 0.5mg or 1 mg of Armidex while on cycle and PCT remains with Nolvadex. Because If I see any sides from Test Prop such as gyno, "Arimidex performs by actively blocking the aromatase enzyme; this is important for steroid users as the aromatase process is what is responsible for many of the negative side-effects commonly associated with anabolic steroid use".
Cause Armidex blocks all the estrogen levels, so it is said that it is not as beneficial in PCT. The reason is some estrogen levels are needed for the body to function properly. Nolvadex can take care of the testosterone production. HCG in the beginning of the PCT will work fine.
You can use Arimidex while on cycle, but you NEED to use Aromasin during PCT with HCG, because I said in my previous post that HCG increases estrogen levels by increasing aromatase activity. You cannot use Arimidex in this case for PCT purposes, because Nolvadex has been shown in studies to greatly decrease blood plasma levels of Arimidex (as well as Letro). This means the best choice AI to use with HCG is Aromasin. Now, with that being said... if you need an AI on cycle and you are already going to use Aromasin during PCT, why not just use Aromasin??? Aromasin in my opinion is a far superior AI to Arimidex (and Letro is just too strong for regular use).
Once again... you need to do a lot more reading and research before beginning anything. Your posts are quite evident of that.
Thanks Atomini for all the help!
Alright so just finished reading every page of this topic, some twice over since I didn't fully understand the first time haha. This will be my first time using tren, I've completed three cycles a couple of years ago and have been natty since. My current plan of action is to run:
100mg test prop Weekly with EOD injections weeks 1-8
250mg/Tren A weekly EOD injections weeks 1-8
I have hcg but my source can't get caber.. Which I really wanted! My test dose is low so I might be able to get away with no AI?
Nolva will be administered for pct 20/20/40/40
My first cycles I never used a pct at all and had no sides or Gyno symptoms. My third cycle was a bit heavier in test then the last two and I experienced some itchy nipples and slight sensitivity and that was it. This was about 2-3years ago.
If you think I definitely need to run prami or some AI throughout my 8week cycle, I probably will (probably aroma since it can work well with hcg?). Because I want something in replace of the caber I can't get, I was just reallyy looking forward to the sexual advantages you've said caber gives :p
Also I'm currently running Clen and I've lost 19lbs so far so ill be continuing Clen through my cycle too with the traditional two weeks on and two off. I have Benadryl as well to take at bedtime.
There is no absolute need for Caber or Prami if you can keep estrogen levels under control on your cycle, as rising prolactin levels have been commonly correlated with high estrogen levels. I should have worked this explanation into the original write up but there's no more room left now to add anything. Anyhow, if you run your Testosterone at a TRT dose (your choice of 100mg/week is just fine), then you shouldn't have a problem. At that dose, you should not need to run an AI either (but it would be good to have these things such as an AI on hand just in case). HOWEVER, the whole issue of prolactin and what causes it to rise up and down is a dodgy one and varies between individuals as well. As a result, you might be one of those people that still has prolactin rise without high estrogen levels. This is why its good to at least have Caber or Pramiprexole at least on hand just in case of these things. I've run Trenbolone cycles before where bloodwork showed no rise in prolactin (with higher test doses and NO aromatase inhibitor might I add), and i've run others where my prolactin was in the 300s and had to use Caber to bring it down. As a result, this is why I always run some sort of prolactin antagonist such as Caber regardless, and why I reccomend others to do the same. The whole prolactin issue, what casues increases and why, is a largely unknown and dodgy case.Quote:
Originally Posted by B1gDaddy
Pramiprexole should give the same sexual performance enhancing advantages that Caber does as well. I've heard from a few people already who have used Prami that it is having a big effect on their libido. Aromasin is the best choice of an AI if you are going to use one and/or have one on hand for sure. Run your cycle with no AI at first, as your TRT dose shouldn't cause a need for an AI. If for some reason you find even with the TRT dose of Testosterone that your estrogen levels are still rising to uncomfortable levels, then use the AI.
By the way, just a side note: the whole Benadryl thing with Clenbuterol to upregulate beta-2 receptors is a load of bullcrap. It was discovered not too long ago that Benadryl does absolutely nothing. Ketotifen does upregulate beta-2 receptors, but Benadryl does not. It's a waste and a quick search on the forum here should lead you to a few threads that discuss this.
thanks for the detailed response! Ill drop the Benadryl and ill look for ketotifen (is that something store bought in canada?) this is the lowest amount of test I've ever done for a cycle so ill skip on the AI until I find any reason to need it and ill get the prami to run at 0.5mg EOD. would you advise I run the hct at all even if I don't care about shrinkage? And just use Nolva alone for pct?
I've tried scouring Shoppers Drug Mart here for Ketotifen and they didn't have it. Seems like its a product that's available mostly in Europe. Try doing a google search for Ketotifen in Canada, that's one thing I haven't done yet.
As far as HCG goes, save it for PCT as per the 'PCT by steroid.com' protocol (see the PCT section of the forum, its a stickied thread there) along with the Aromasin and Nolva. I don't advise HCG use during cycle unless it is an extremely long cycle. For 8 weekers, it isn't very necessary.
Hey Atomin...thanks for the awesome thread.
Question:
You say you can get gyno on tren from prolactin-related gyno so you recommend using ''cabergoline'' to prevent this is that correct or am i reading it wrong? If so where about can i get cabergoline from?
Thanks.
EDIT-- i just read this the questions, is cabergoline and pramiprexole the same thing? or should they both be used? If they are the same which is the better one to use?
Thanks
Ryan,
You can control Prolactin secretion by keeping estrogen levels low OR you can use a prolactin antagonist such as Cabergoline or Pramiprexole.
Caber and Prami are not the same things, but they are in the same class and category of drug. They perform the same actions (acting as a dopamine receptor agonist, and thereby reducing prolactin secretion through this pathway). I prefer Cabergoline as the superior compound, but Prami works just as well. The only downside to Prami is it comes with a couple of side effects that is not seen with Caber. These include drowsiness and nausea at higher doses (or if the dose is increased too fast).
Thanks for the reply Atomini.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Ok i will be using aromasin and masteron on cycle anyway to keep estrogen low.
But will probably include caber or pram on cycle also, as better to be safe than sorry i guess. Where do i get these from? Pharmacy?
Thanks again/
You can get Prami from the board sponsor, AR-R. They do not carry Caber.
Both Caber and Prami are prescription medications (in North America, at least) and cannot be obtained over the counter.
Hey Atomini.... I heard that masteron will be good for progestogenic effects and prolactin secretion? is this true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Also i tried to find prami on AR-R but no results were found.... can you please link me to it. Thanks.
You talk about hCG being in PCT for the first 10 days.. I always thought you should run hCG during your cycle in the last 10 weeks? I had planed on running it at 250iu twice per week for 10 weeks leading up to PCT.. Im about to do a 16 week pre comp cutting cycle for my BB comp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
16 weeks Test prop 50mg ED
16 weeks Aromasin 12.5mg ED
14 weeks Masteron 100mg ED
12 weeks Tren ace 50mg ED
10 weeks hCG 250iu 2x per week
Prami: http://www.ar-r.com/ancillaries/liqu...ml-1mg-ml.html
And I am not going to re-type my reasons as to why I believe that HCG use on cycle in a short 8-10 week cycle is a less than desireable decision. I have explained why its a bad idea in countless posts, and you can scroll up above and read my previous posts that provide an explanation. I'm not going to waste time repeating myself over and over. See post #300 in this thread.
Thanks for the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Regarding the hCG i read the above post #300, what about for those on longer cycles? (16 weeks plus) Do you think it would be a good idea to include it during cycle then or still only if you get testicular atrophy? Or would you still recommend just keep it in PCT? Sorry if I'm dumb lol.
I am just a bit confused with hog now after reading swift's post...
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t#.UHn9VFFRpok
Swifto seems to think use hCg during cycle if cycle is longer than 6 weeks, you recommend keeping hCG for PCT only...
since cMS ran out of caber i got prami form ar-r but its been three weeks to fly across the border... i could have driven to Texas faster lol. Since prami is fast, whats your thoughts on starting the tren ace before it arrives? i already have mast and test in my blood at peak levels.
i really have no idea how long customs is gonna sit on this.... :(
RyanGreg,
Please see my post #185 in this thread. I answered this EXACT SAME question about HCG that another member had who was confused by the contradictory information around here about HCG and where its proper place is during or after a cycle. I made an absolutely massive post explaining my stance behind HCG use and why, so i'm not going to repeat myself here again and again. Once again, it is post #185. If you are going to use HCG while on cycle, it should be reserved for longer cycles such as 12 weeks or more (as you mentioned, 16 weeks). Otherwise, it should be reserved for PCT only (and even then, I have said many many times, it is NOT an absolute requirement!).
My thoughts on starting ANYTHING before ancilliaries arive is: very stupid move. You don't know if customs is going to bounce back the parcel for whatever reason, and if you've started the Tren, you're shit out of luck if your Prami doesn't make to to you on time (or at all). Wait until you have everything you need for ancilliaries and PCT before starting your cycles. There have been too many horror stories you can find around here of people too impetuous and eager to begin their cycles before their AIs or SERMs were in their posession, because they thought "its on its way anyways and should be here by the time i'm a few days into my cycle" or whatever. Then you see these threads started by these people where they're saying things like "help guys! I got gyno forming and I started my cycle before my ancilliaries got here, I thought they'd get here on time but there was a delay!! What do I do??". Don't be one of those people. Granted, IF prolactin levels rise from Trenbolone, they usually take several days or a week or two before it occurs, but do you really want to risk starting Tren before you have your anti-prolactin meds? Especially if the package is held up somewhere and you have no idea when exactly it is going to arrive?Quote:
Originally Posted by mockery