Shorter mild cycle = less or no need for HCG?

1-10: 500mg Test-E a week

1-10: 0.25mg Armidex EOD

1-10: 500iu HCG a week (250iu pinned twice a week)

After last Test-E pin: 500iu HCG ED for 14 days

PCT 14 days after last Test-E pin:

Nolva 20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

I would like input on this cycle in general. But also specifically because it's 1 compound and considered a short mild cycle...do I need the HCG and if so, in the manner I'm taking it?

HCG is not nessasary but I think its important and would never cycle without it, I think PCT is easier if you ran hcg during the cycle. Cycle looks good though

You PCT should be set up like this imo.
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 50/50/25/25

Or

Torem 60/60/30/30
Nolva 40/40/20/20

Torem is better than clomid I think, newer, higher class drug developed

Alright, I think i'm going to need to start a separate thread informing people of how outdated an inefficient Clomid is... this is getting crazy the amount of people who still cling to the clomid protocols.

I believe HCG isn't a requirement at all, and should only be used if you are having the utmost trouble getting your testosterone levels back up.

HCG could be considered an initial boost, or a quick boost to the leydig cells of your testes, but not a long term solution. And definitely not a solitary solution. Nolvadex is your answer to that. If one is going to use HCG, its exact use would be in the week or 2 immediately following an anabolic steroid cycle to get the testicles producing testosterone immediately, while taking nolvadex at that time as well. Then the HCG would be halted, and the nolvadex continued for another 2-3 weeks following it to ensure proper endogenous gonadotropin production. If you were to use ONLY HCG as your PCT , you would be in big trouble trying to get your body back to normal, because it would suppress your own body's gonadotropin production (HCG is basically synthetic gonadotropin). Thus, you would be stuck in a vicious circle. The way I see it, you should be trying to get your hypothalamus to be releasing gonadotropins itself - this is what Nolvadex is excellent at doing.

So in short, I would not advise HCG except for situations in which you are shut down extremely hard and need that initial boost. Otherwise, Nolvadex does just fine.

So what would you dose the Nolva at 40/40/20/20?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

Alright, I think i'm going to need to start a separate thread informing people of how outdated an inefficient Clomid is... this is getting crazy the amount of people who still cling to the clomid protocols.

I believe HCG isn't a requirement at all, and should only be used if you are having the utmost trouble getting your testosterone levels back up.

HCG could be considered an initial boost, or a quick boost to the leydig cells of your testes, but not a long term solution. And definitely not a solitary solution. Nolvadex is your answer to that. If one is going to use HCG, its exact use would be in the week or 2 immediately following an anabolic steroid cycle to get the testicles producing testosterone immediately, while taking nolvadex at that time as well. Then the HCG would be halted, and the nolvadex continued for another 2-3 weeks following it to ensure proper endogenous gonadotropin production. If you were to use ONLY HCG as your PCT , you would be in big trouble trying to get your body back to normal, because it would suppress your own body's gonadotropin production (HCG is basically synthetic gonadotropin). Thus, you would be stuck in a vicious circle. The way I see it, you should be trying to get your hypothalamus to be releasing gonadotropins itself - this is what Nolvadex is excellent at doing.

So in short, I would not advise HCG except for situations in which you are shut down extremely hard and need that initial boost. Otherwise, Nolvadex does just fine.

---

Good shit, I agree, people put to much faith in clomid these days, it came it in what the 50's early 60's? Torem and raloxifene came out like a few years ago

As far as HCG, write up a new thread on that too man, we need a updated one. Im in the old mindset that you need to run it on cycle, but appears might have to be run all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlueWaffle21

So what would you dose the Nolva at 40/40/20/20?

---

yup thats good

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlueWaffle21

So what would you dose the Nolva at 40/40/20/20?

---

That's exactly what I use. With shorter cycles, there really is no need for HCG. I would strongly advise the greater need for HCG during longer cycles (12-16 weekers i've seen people do), as evidently the body shuts down hard. Most of the time with shorter cycles, the body doesn't 'catch on' as quickly to the exogenous hormones. This is why I enjoy shorter cycles like 8 weekers - you get on fast, make your gains, and get off before the body even notices what the hell happened. Of course, everyone has their own sensitivity to HPTA shutdown (some shut down hard than others, faster than others, and some don't shut down at all). But as a general idea: shorter cycles are better for these reasons.

After this cycle i'm on right now is over, I am going to attempt the short burst cycle protocol (4 week cycles).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

That's exactly what I use. With shorter cycles, there really is no need for HCG. I would strongly advise the greater need for HCG during longer cycles (12-16 weekers i've seen people do), as evidently the body shuts down hard. Most of the time with shorter cycles, the body doesn't 'catch on' as quickly to the exogenous hormones. This is why I enjoy shorter cycles like 8 weekers - you get on fast, make your gains, and get off before the body even notices what the hell happened. Of course, everyone has their own sensitivity to HPTA shutdown (some shut down hard than others, faster than others, and some don't shut down at all). But as a general idea: shorter cycles are better for these reasons.

After this cycle i'm on right now is over, I am going to attempt the short burst cycle protocol (4 week cycles).

---

What does your current cycle look like?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razor

What does your current cycle look like?

---

Currently running Test Prop at 100mg/week (25mg EOD) with Tren Ace at 800mg/week (200mg EOD).

By the way, the answer to your question you asked me above about clomid, please see this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct

and this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d-during-cycle

Read my posts in them to see how horrible Clomid is compared to Nolvadex. I am thinking of compounding all my posts in those threads into 1 thread about why Clomid sucks and Nolvadex is far better for PCT and EVERYTHING ELSE. Nolvadex is still king, btw. In studies where they compared it to Toremifene, it still came out on top in terms of its ability to stimulate test production in men.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

Alright, I think i'm going to need to start a separate thread informing people of how outdated an inefficient Clomid is... this is getting crazy the amount of people who still cling to the clomid protocols.

I believe HCG isn't a requirement at all, and should only be used if you are having the utmost trouble getting your testosterone levels back up.

HCG could be considered an initial boost, or a quick boost to the leydig cells of your testes, but not a long term solution. And definitely not a solitary solution. Nolvadex is your answer to that. If one is going to use HCG, its exact use would be in the week or 2 immediately following an anabolic steroid cycle to get the testicles producing testosterone immediately, while taking nolvadex at that time as well. Then the HCG would be halted, and the nolvadex continued for another 2-3 weeks following it to ensure proper endogenous gonadotropin production. If you were to use ONLY HCG as your PCT , you would be in big trouble trying to get your body back to normal, because it would suppress your own body's gonadotropin production (HCG is basically synthetic gonadotropin). Thus, you would be stuck in a vicious circle. The way I see it, you should be trying to get your hypothalamus to be releasing gonadotropins itself - this is what Nolvadex is excellent at doing.

So in short, I would not advise HCG except for situations in which you are shut down extremely hard and need that initial boost. Otherwise, Nolvadex does just fine.

---

So your recommendation is as follows:

Drop the hcg during the cycle?

Drop Clomid and use Torem instead?

Use HCG just for bridging between cycle and post cycle? How much if so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

That's exactly what I use. With shorter cycles, there really is no need for HCG. I would strongly advise the greater need for HCG during longer cycles (12-16 weekers i've seen people do), as evidently the body shuts down hard. Most of the time with shorter cycles, the body doesn't 'catch on' as quickly to the exogenous hormones. This is why I enjoy shorter cycles like 8 weekers - you get on fast, make your gains, and get off before the body even notices what the hell happened. Of course, everyone has their own sensitivity to HPTA shutdown (some shut down hard than others, faster than others, and some don't shut down at all). But as a general idea: shorter cycles are better for these reasons.

After this cycle i'm on right now is over, I am going to attempt the short burst cycle protocol (4 week cycles).

---

Shorter cycles=less sides=faster recovery when off=holding on to more gains?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

Currently running Test Prop at 100mg/week (25mg EOD) with Tren Ace at 800mg/week (200mg EOD).

By the way, the answer to your question you asked me above about clomid, please see this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct

and this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d-during-cycle

Read my posts in them to see how horrible Clomid is compared to Nolvadex. I am thinking of compounding all my posts in those threads into 1 thread about why Clomid sucks and Nolvadex is far better for PCT and EVERYTHING ELSE. Nolvadex is still king, btw. In studies where they compared it to Toremifene, it still came out on top in terms of its ability to stimulate test production in men.

---

The standard around here is running Nolva and Clomid post cycle. Are you advising just running Nolva post cycle and dropping Clomid, or replacing Clomid with something else?

If you find you are sensitive to HPTA shutdown and you balls shrink, and you want to maintain testicular size, etc. on cycle, then its up to you to use the HCG. I just don't reccomend it for PCT from an 8 week cycle.

Drop the clomid - use Nolvadex.

DO NOT use HCG for post-cycle unless you've been shut down extremely hard and typically have a lot of trouble restoring testicular function, or unless you've run a very very long cycle (13-16 weekers or more). Do not under any circumstances use it to 'bridge' between cycles either. Your body, once it has either restored gonadotropin secretion levels back to normal, or reached very high levels of gonadotropin secretions from the SERMs you have been using from PCT, using HCG will only set you back to square one. In one study, Nolvadex used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline (1). And that was 10 days, let alone the 4 weeks alotted for PCT with it. If you were to add HCG when your body is pretty much back to normal endocrine function, you would end up going backwards. You'll end up suppressing your body's own endogenous production of gonadotropins (because you're sticking synthetic gonadotropin into your body with HCG), and you'll be back at square 1. Don't do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judah

The standard around here is running Nolva and Clomid post cycle. Are you advising just running Nolva post cycle and dropping Clomid, or replacing Clomid with something else?

---

Drop clomid completely.

Please see my posts in this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct

and this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d-during-cycle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

If you find you are sensitive to HPTA shutdown and you balls shrink, and you want to maintain testicular size, etc. on cycle, then its up to you to use the HCG. I just don't reccomend it for PCT from an 8 week cycle.

Drop the clomid - use Nolvadex.

DO NOT use HCG for post-cycle unless you've been shut down extremely hard and typically have a lot of trouble restoring testicular function, or unless you've run a very very long cycle (13-16 weekers or more). Do not under any circumstances use it to 'bridge' between cycles either. Your body, once it has either restored gonadotropin secretion levels back to normal, or reached very high levels of gonadotropin secretions from the SERMs you have been using from PCT, using HCG will only set you back to square one. In one study, Nolvadex used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline (1). And that was 10 days, let alone the 4 weeks alotted for PCT with it. If you were to add HCG when your body is pretty much back to normal endocrine function, you would end up going backwards. You'll end up suppressing your body's own endogenous production of gonadotropins (because you're sticking synthetic gonadotropin into your body with HCG), and you'll be back at square 1. Don't do it.

---

I didn't mean bridging between cycles with hcg, I meant using hcg during the 14 days before starting starting Nolva.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

Drop clomid completely.

Please see my posts in this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct

and this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d-during-cycle

---

More great posts man!! It's tough to argue when you have that kind of info and cited references!! I will be dropping Clomid tomorrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judah

I didn't mean bridging between cycles with hcg, I meant using hcg during the 14 days before starting starting Nolva.

---

I have nothing against that idea - but it isn't essential. It is a good application in that it gives the testes a jolt of synthetic gonadotropins to get them going again. Once they're rolling producing testosterone, you remove the HCG and throw the nolva in. Now the Nolva does its job of stimulating the pituitary to release natural gonadotropin, thus keeping the testes going. This is typically what I reccomend but usually only for long cycles or for those who get shut down very hard and have a lot of difficulty bouncing back. It doesn't hurt to do it, but I like to avoid HCG if I can. It's your call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

I have nothing against that idea - but it isn't essential. It is a good application in that it gives the testes a jolt of synthetic gonadotropins to get them going again. Once they're rolling producing testosterone, you remove the HCG and throw the nolva in. Now the Nolva does its job of stimulating the pituitary to release natural gonadotropin, thus keeping the testes going. This is typically what I reccomend but usually only for long cycles or for those who get shut down very hard and have a lot of difficulty bouncing back. It doesn't hurt to do it, but I like to avoid HCG if I can. It's your call.

---

So do you think torem or evista should be run with nolvadex for pct? Or just run nolva by itself?

I wont start this here, but would love to see your reasoning behind why clomid is so 'bad' and have a debate on it :-) - @atomini

As for the original OP question;

After last Test-E pin: 500iu HCG ED for 14 days - I wouldnt advise this, I would say to stay at the 2x a week for one more week, then have a week off then start pct.
as for the pct, i would say for first week have nolva at 40mg then drop it down to 20mg for 6 weeks, and the clomid have it at 100mg for the frist week then drop it to 50 the 2nd week then to 25 the 3rd and 4th week.

as for ur AI, have u ran a cycle before? do you know what your dosage needed is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

I have nothing against that idea - but it isn't essential. It is a good application in that it gives the testes a jolt of synthetic gonadotropins to get them going again. Once they're rolling producing testosterone, you remove the HCG and throw the nolva in. Now the Nolva does its job of stimulating the pituitary to release natural gonadotropin, thus keeping the testes going. This is typically what I reccomend but usually only for long cycles or for those who get shut down very hard and have a lot of difficulty bouncing back. It doesn't hurt to do it, but I like to avoid HCG if I can. It's your call.

---

It's been a privilege kind sir, I am now officially rethinking my PCT lol.

0.25mg EOD Armidex during cycle?

40/40/20/20 Nolva post cycle?

Option: hcg for 14 days prior to starting Nolva but after last test-e pin...and how much?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razor

So do you think torem or evista should be run with nolvadex for pct? Or just run nolva by itself?

---

I think that Nolva is efficient enough on its own. The only other thing I would reccomend is a low dose of an AI, preferrably aromasin, in order to create a feedback loop whereby the body notices diminished estrogen and therefore will send signals out to being producing more testosterone.

Like i've said a few times already though, if you ARE the type that is very sensitive to shutdown and has a very difficult time restoring your endogenous hormones - HCG will be required with the nolva (and aromasin will have to be thrown in as well, because HCG increases aromatase activity in the body).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judah

It's been a privilege kind sir, I am now officially rethinking my PCT lol.

0.25mg EOD Armidex during cycle?

40/40/20/20 Nolva post cycle?

Option: hcg for 14 days prior to starting Nolva but after last test-e pin...and how much?

---

Low dose Arimidex is good to keep estrogen under control on-cycle. But I much prefer low dose Aromasin.

Btw if you are going to use HCG, you must run aromasin with it. This is because HCG increases aromatase activity in the body and you'll have higher estrogen levels if you use HCG without it. Though its not extremely common, people have reported getting gyno while using HCG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

I wont start this here, but would love to see your reasoning behind why clomid is so 'bad' and have a debate on it :-) - @atomini

As for the original OP question;

After last Test-E pin: 500iu HCG ED for 14 days - I wouldnt advise this, I would say to stay at the 2x a week for one more week, then have a week off then start pct.
as for the pct, i would say for first week have nolva at 40mg then drop it down to 20mg for 6 weeks, and the clomid have it at 100mg for the frist week then drop it to 50 the 2nd week then to 25 the 3rd and 4th week.

as for ur AI, have u ran a cycle before? do you know what your dosage needed is?

---

Never ran an AS cycle. Ex-pro athlete. Been researching off and on for about 3 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

I wont start this here, but would love to see your reasoning behind why clomid is so 'bad' and have a debate on it :-) - @atomini

As for the original OP question;

After last Test-E pin: 500iu HCG ED for 14 days - I wouldnt advise this, I would say to stay at the 2x a week for one more week, then have a week off then start pct.
as for the pct, i would say for first week have nolva at 40mg then drop it down to 20mg for 6 weeks, and the clomid have it at 100mg for the frist week then drop it to 50 the 2nd week then to 25 the 3rd and 4th week.

as for ur AI, have u ran a cycle before? do you know what your dosage needed is?

---

Lemonada8,

To see what I have to say about Clomid, please see my posts in this thread here:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct

and this thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d-during-cycle

^^ 404 werent found.

nvm they work on the first time u posted them... brb :)

and u refueled my motivation to finish my PCT paper, thanks :).. ill try to get that done asap ( its only the first week of school, i can stall a bit )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

^^ 404 werent found.

nvm they work on the first time u posted them... brb :)

---

Try now:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...prefer-for-pct

and

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d-during-cycle

Don't know why it didn't work before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

Low dose Arimidex is good to keep estrogen under control on-cycle. But I much prefer low dose Aromasin.

Btw if you are going to use HCG, you must run aromasin with it. This is because HCG increases aromatase activity in the body and you'll have higher estrogen levels if you use HCG without it. Though its not extremely common, people have reported getting gyno while using HCG.

---

Jesus, for every question you answer I have 5 more lol FML.

I already have liquidex (Armidex) so I'm sticking with that as an AI during my cycle.

If I choose to how should I run hcg and aromasin during the 14 days prior to Nolva?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judah

Jesus, for every question you answer I have 5 more lol FML.

I already have liquidex (Armidex) so I'm sticking with that as an AI during my cycle.

If I choose to how should I run hcg and aromasin during the 14 days prior to Nolva?

---

If you already have arimidex, then just use that, don't worry about switching. As for how to use aromasin with HCG: 12.5mg aromasin every day with 500iu HCG every day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

If you already have arimidex, then just use that, don't worry about switching. As for how to use aromasin with HCG: 12.5mg aromasin every day with 500iu HCG every day.

---

Roger dodger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomini

Alright, I think i'm going to need to start a separate thread informing people of how outdated an inefficient Clomid is... this is getting crazy the amount of people who still cling to the clomid protocols.

I believe HCG isn't a requirement at all, and should only be used if you are having the utmost trouble getting your testosterone levels back up.

HCG could be considered an initial boost, or a quick boost to the leydig cells of your testes, but not a long term solution. And definitely not a solitary solution. Nolvadex is your answer to that. If one is going to use HCG, its exact use would be in the week or 2 immediately following an anabolic steroid cycle to get the testicles producing testosterone immediately, while taking nolvadex at that time as well. Then the HCG would be halted, and the nolvadex continued for another 2-3 weeks following it to ensure proper endogenous gonadotropin production. If you were to use ONLY HCG as your PCT , you would be in big trouble trying to get your body back to normal, because it would suppress your own body's gonadotropin production (HCG is basically synthetic gonadotropin). Thus, you would be stuck in a vicious circle. The way I see it, you should be trying to get your hypothalamus to be releasing gonadotropins itself - this is what Nolvadex is excellent at doing.

So in short, I would not advise HCG except for situations in which you are shut down extremely hard and need that initial boost. Otherwise, Nolvadex does just fine.

---

If you used HCG during your cycle, wouldn't that prevent you HTPA from getting shut down? making PCT all the more easy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kronik420

If you used HCG during your cycle, wouldn't that prevent you HTPA from getting shut down? making PCT all the more easy?

---

Yes, this is true. Though with shorter cycles, it isn't that essential. It is mostly reccomended for longer cycles where the body's HPTA is shut down for extended periods of time where the risk of permanent atrophy is very great. It is a good precautionary measure though, even for short cycles. But not essential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kronik420

If you used HCG during your cycle, wouldn't that prevent you HTPA from getting shut down? making PCT all the more easy?

---

actually HCG will not prevent the HPTA from shutting down at all, what it does is keep the testes funtioning during the cycle because it is the slowest to recover from shutdown. The pit and hypothalamus are very rapid in restabilizing compared to the testes.

Very Informative read! Thanks guys!

I'm def running hcg 250ius 2x ew my last 3-4 weeks of cycle ( if I take it to 16 weeks which I probably will) and then 500ius Ed for the 14 days after last pin to "jump start" my boys. Also adding the nolvadex as out lined here to my current pct set up.

Thanks again! Exactally what I was looking for