Printable View
hey atomini great tren thread mate lots of usefull info... i have one question for you though that im not clear on.
so if im running tren i should run prami instead of adex right? as tren causes prolactin related gyno not estrigen related gyno?
and i dose it at 1mg ed or eod? cheers............btern
You should have posted this in the tren thread.
You are correct, tren can induce prolactin-related gyno. Arimidex, aromasin, letro, or any other aromatase inhibitor will not do anything to reduce prolactin levels in the body. High estrogen levels have been known to up-regulate the prolactin receptors in breast tissue, therefore making the risk of prolactin-induced gyno more likely. An AI such as arimidex would help to prevent prolactin-related gyno IF YOU ARE RUNNING AN AROMATIZABLE STEROID WITH TREN. This idea won't reduce prolactin levels in the body though. This is why I reccomend just simply attacking the root of the problem and stopping prolactin production by using a prolactin antagonist such as prami or caber.
All of this is answered in the tren thread...
thanks for the quick reply bro your a dead set guru!!
IMO, when it comes to gyno caused by Tren, same as with any 19-nor compound the issue is largely due to progesterone, not prolactin. AI's, particularly Letrozole will help with progesterone, but SERM's like Nolvadex will actually amplify its negative effects.
There's really no hard evidence that prolactin contributes greatly to gyno, and when it comes to progesterone, it's normally only those who are really sensitive to gyno or are using high doses that will have gyno issues. I'm not saying prolactin can't cause gyno, but the issue seems to be overstated in many cases.
Metalject,
According to research cited here (1), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels. Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (2). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: “Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism”. (1)
The causation of gyno is largely complex and its precise specifics are largely unknown, and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF -1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to amending the problem.
Trenbolone plays a part in its role in causing gyno by signaling the pituitary to secrete and release prolactin, which then activates prolactin receptors in breast tissue. As well, due to the nature of trenbolone itself being a progestin, there are progesterone receptors on breast tissue as well that it binds to in order to contribute to the overall complex mechanism that produces gyno. If we can eliminate one of the gears in the machine that is responsible for the formulation of gyno, you can effectively have a high chance of stopping, blocking, and preventing it. In the case of trenbolone, prolactin does play a large role in it. This is why I advise running a prolactin antagonist, and keeping estrogen in check.
REFERENCES:
1. Ismail AA, Barth JH.Ann Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607
2. Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72
So after all that how does "prolactin gyno" form in the absence of excess estrogen?
Great question. It doesnt (as u know).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman
So in what i would consider a properly structured cycle (ie not running tren alone) the root of the problem remains estrogen , which is why it is most prudent to primarily manage estrogen levels with an ai and secondarily , possibly for other reasons, manage prolactin.
Good to see you sarge btw....
^^^ Exactly. I feel like this subject's been beat to death but if you research the "long feedback mechanism" (credit to swifto) you'll see that controlling e is the primary concern and when e is kept in check, prl is of little importance for MOST people.
I would encourage anyone who thinks they have "prl gyno" to have their blood work done and see what's really going on (high E).
I've run tren at well over 2 times my test dose with no dopamine agonist while keeping E in check and prl was within reference range.
That's all I've ever done. E under control and no issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman
Maybe I'm nuts but it would seem the above supports what I said earlier. Long and short, progesterone would be the cause of gyno when using Tren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Even so, low to moderate Tren doses shouldn't cause most men a problem assuming there is not an abundant amount of aromatase activity due to massive say testosterone doses.
For the record and for what it's worth, most Tren I ever used, 700mg/wk Tren-a...no gyno, nothing used for prolactin. Most test and Tren-a ever used, 1,750/wk Test-e and 700mg/wk Tren-a along side an AI...no gyno.
BTW, before the world goes nuts about those Test/Tren doses, this is not something I'm encouraging anyone else to do. I did it in the old days and in retrospect find that much Test to be a waste in most cases.
I am fully in agreement here. What I was saying was that there are many different factors in the overall complex mechanism that produces gyno. Therefore, if you can eliminate one or more of the gears in the machine that is responsible for the formation of gyno, you can effectively have a high chance of stopping, blocking, and preventing it. Yes, keeping estrogen in check prevents prolactin and progesterone induced gyno no problem.
However, keeping estrogen levels low solves the issue of gyno in relation to progesterone and prolactin at the breast tissue site. This does not solve the issue of increased prolactin secretion in the body, and tren in varying degrees between users DOES increase prolactin secretion. And the reason why I support using a prolactin antagonist while running any progestogenic 19-nor is to keep those levels down in the first place - prolactin has an intense inhibitory effect on libido, sex drive, and the ability to achieve orgasms. We see constant reports of people having sex drive and libido issues when using compounds like trenbolone and deca, and when a prolactin antagonist is inserted into the mix, it solves their libido issues.
I ran trenbolone once and waited until week 3 to begin using my standard 1mg/week of Cabergoline. At the end of week 2 I had bloodwork done, and prolactin was in the 300s. Taking 1mg of caber took me down to 4. I'm sorry but even with keeping progesterone and prolactin-related gyno in check with estrogen control, high prolactin levels in the body to begin with are not something I want or need at all.
Atomini,
Here is my situation
I'm 9 weeks into a 12week tren/test cycle. I was taking liq stane from day 1 @ 12.5mg eod but bumped it to 12.5mg ed around week 5 when gyno started to flare up. Wasn't too much longer i had lumps and puffy nips. I bumped up again to 25mg eod and saw no change. Went had BW to check E2 and levels were 207. I jumped on letro tapered up tp 2.5mg/day. Guess I've been on letro for about 2 weeks @ 2.5mg.day with really no change in the gyno. I've also been taking liq prami for a few weeks now. I've also began taking Nolva a few days ago at 20mg/day. I know some think thats a bad idea on 19nor's but i just cant figure this out.
I started at a test/tren dose of 500mg/400mg /week and I've decreased the test dosage down to 50mg/eod which is just enough to keep everything working. When i first started taking the letro i felt drained and exhausted with no sex drive. I guess my blood levels have stablized b/c things are better now.
Do you think i'm going about this correctly? I've read so much on this in the past weeks i feel like my mind is going crazy. Is there something I'm missing? I know I should prob go get more BW to see if my E levels have come down. Even if they have gone down why are my nips still puffy and i still have lumps? Should i be taking the liq Prami ed instead of eod? Sorry about all the questions. I'm just bummed out at the whole situation. You work so hard for this body and are self conscious to take off your shirt b/c of puffy nips....that just sucks!
Did you get a full hormone panel done? Checked prolactin levels as well? Did the lumps go away or any of the gyno at all reduce after taking aromasin and letro? Or was there no change what so ever?
It sounds like you have all bases covered. Letro is known to kill sex drive and make you lethargic due to the extreme drop in estrogen levels in the body. You should be using the Prami ED, so try switching to that.
The only thing I can think of if nothing at all is working is questioning the quality of your ancilliaries.
No i didnt get the full hormone panel done. I really thought it was high E2 so i had that checked. I figured once I knew for sure it was high Estrogen i would lower it with the letro. The aromasin did nothing for the gyno. I've question the qaulity of the liq stane and some suggested it could have been damaged by the heat or a bad batch. The letro i started taking was about a year old but ordered a new bottle and I'v been taking that for about a week at 2.5mg/day. The lumps have not went away. I really feel that there has been no change with everything I've tried. I feel that the letro at the dose I'm taking, at least, should have taking care of the puffy nips.
All my AI/SERMS are from the banner up at the top.
I will start taking the prami ed. Will that do anything for the lumps and puffy nips? Will the prami kill the prolactin in the body that has been circulating? I understand that controling E keeps prolactin under control, but if my E levels got to 207 wouldn't that suggest my prolactin levels were high too.
Hopefully, decreasing my test dosage to a trt dosage will help solve the problem.
thanks for the help
See... this is why I personally ALWAYS make sure my ancilliaries are all pharm-grade. I know that most of the time, research chem stuff is good to go but I personally want to take no chances with post-cycle recovery, or estrogen control. If you get bunk gear, the worst thing that happens is: you waste your money. If you get bunk ancilliary products, the worst thing that happens is: not just wasted money, but you can really mess yourself up if you don't recover properly during PCT, or if gyno spirals out of control.
The prami will lower prolactin, and if the prolactin is one of the main culprits then it should help. However, as i've mentioned many times, gyno is a complex system of pathways and sometimes it is just beyond our control as to what is going on. If your letro is good to go, it should be having an effect on the gyno especially if nolvadex is added into the mix. This is why i'm wondering if your ancilliaries are up to par.
You've made a good choice to lower the test dose to see if that helps - that was going to be my next suggestion. Are you using any peptides, HGH, IGF as well? WORST CASE SCENARIO: I would suggest stopping everything and moving to PCT.
I agree 100% about the ancilliaries. My source doesnt carry them and I haven't found a reliable source that does. I've been using the RC for a few years but i'm truthfully starting to question their potency. Before the start of my next cycle i will source pharm-grade ancilliaries just to play it safe.
I'm not taking any peptides, HGH or IGH. I just added the nolva into the mix this week so i'll give it a week or so to work and in the meantime bump prami to ed to see if that helps. If all fails I'll just cut the cycle short and jump into PCT as you suggested.
Thanks again
Very good idea. Something a lot of people fail to realize is that ancilliaries, much like AAS, take time for blood levels to peak in the body before they begin to do their work. Naturally, it takes a few days for nolvadex, or aromasin to start to do its job. Give it a bit of time and see. Allow the letro, nolvadex, and prami to do their work over the next week or so. Keep us posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjr579
If all is succesful, post your results in the tren thread so that any others that may run into the same problem will see your solution.
While Pharm Grade is of course the best plan, if you do not have a source for pharm grade AR-R has in my experience been better than any of the other Res Chem sources.
On a seperate but related note: As far as pharm grade, I have always had my doubts on Indian Pharma qual/potency when it comes to the more difficult/expensive to produce chems. Recently ADC stopped carrying HCG themselves and are now handling all HCG business through another name (probably just a name game as its got a canadian name but its clearly Indian pharma shyte) anyhow while shopping for HCG I noticed that they had HCG from a global pharma branch but it was only available in 2000 IU size and 3 times the price of the Indian stuff. So I bit the bullet and ordered 5 kits... I cruise and blast and had been noticing lack of testicular volume for a while now and recently it even seemed to be affecting sex drive. Well low and behold after pinning 3 times I noticed a substantial increase in volume and libido, whether the libido is attributable to the HCG I do not know but the boys are now a lot fuller for sure.