Could this theory work?

[bigsiv]

This is a theoretical cycle which I am planning and hoping to start after advise and feedback from you guys. Main point is to discuss NATURAL prolactin inhibitors and the suppression of estrogen. So here goes:

Week 1-10 deca 200 0.5ml eod
Week 1-12 test 400. 0.4ml eod
Arimidex (on hand I'll explain)
Caber/prami (on hand I'll explain)
Hog 250iu's x 2 week
Pct clomid 100/50/50/50 nolvadex 40/20/20/20

My theory is that you could control prolactin with natural inhibitors such as :

Vitamin B6 160-320 mgs day
Ginkgo biloba 6000mg day
Korean ginseng 800mg day
Vitamin E (not sure on dosage yet still checking)

Also I have read that the suppression of estrogen (with Arimidex etc) can come with side effects such as lathargy and hinder gains therefore when on cycle not to use an A.I unless symptoms of gyno start and instead block the receptor with tamoxifen.

Could this actually work?

Remember this is theoretical I just like to hear from the knowledgable people here.
Cheers in advance Peace.

[Lemonada8]

it would be more helpful if you put ur weekly dosages up there, not ml amounts.

I dont know about the herbals u mentioned...
but Vit B6 would help with prolacin,
Magnesium and zinc have been shown to help minimize aromatization of test.

With deca you really only need a TRT dose of test, so the deca has more efficacy and can do what it does w/o the competition from the test. That would help minimize sides also, b/c deca isnt gonna aromatize but it does undergo reduction ( aka deca dick). Its the high levels of test that will aromatize and if there is that much test in the body that means more is gonna aromatize.

estrogen makes prolactin more potent, so by keeping estrogen down you can keep the possible prolactin issues at bay instead of trying to boost ur dopamine levels to control prolactin that way. If estrogen increases and prolactin stays the same, you can still get prolactin issues due to the enhancement done by the estrogen.

[Jet]

No. tamox is an anti e, adex is an aromatise inhibitor. use adex on cycle to stop estrogen from starting up in the first place. If you run a mild dose it's not going to hinder your gains, if you run 1 stupid high dose of adex it will.
I like .25mg ed or .5 eod. You can gauge what your dose needs to be by how your body responds. You will feel the need for more or less.
Save the nolva for PCT and run the caber throughout your cycle. Toss the prami

[bigsiv]

Weekly dosage test 560 deca 350

I understand nolvadex is used for pct what I'm trying to discuss is if test is at 560 a week (moderate dose) and the nolvadex is stopping estrogen to bind then IS it possible? The idea of making the deca do the work is a good idea though understand that I was just wondering if you could keep prolactin to a minimum without caber.

Please understand I am not anti A.i or anti prolactin inhibitors I am just wondering if you could do it naturally with vitamins etc.
My thoughts are that you need some estrogen for purpose such as immune system, energy etc

Thanx for replys appreciate it

[Lemonada8]

do your test at 200/week and keep the deca the same or up it a lil to 400/week.

[gixxerboy1]

you are correct you need some estrogen. But if you dont over do it on the ai you are fine. you just want keep the levels in the normal range. And if you stay in the normal range you will not have any of the effects you listed

i wouldnt trust my estro levels to herbs and vitamins

[bigsiv]

Cheers for reply lemonada8 my question is about estrogen suppression and prolactin though not dosage but appreciate feedback. I'll catch up on this tomorrow bedtime lol work in morning cheers guys

[bigsiv]

Appreciate the feedback gixxerboy1 always have good answers this is a theoretical question and I understand the importance of safety first. Just wondering at a low dose of 560 mg w of test and low dose of deca 350mg w could you not control estrogen and prolactin naturally/herbally.

I ask this because I read a good thread about side effects of estrogen suppression when using an A.I. Just got me thinking is it necessary to an extreme extent

Thanx again for replys

[gixxerboy1]

well everyone will be different. The only way to tell is try it and get bloodwork taken.

[bigsiv]

Yeah I think so as well I'm going to try and find a bit more research before commuting to anything like this. I will post any findings thanx

[Lemonada8]

If you dont want estrogen problems, use a lower amount of test. You are gonna stack it with deca, so dont try to make it compete with the test for the actions in the body. Deca wont armoatize, but it will reduce to DHN ( aka deca dick).

[Bonaparte]

If you dont want estrogen problems, use a lower amount of test. You are gonna stack it with deca, so dont try to make it compete with the test for the actions in the body. Deca wont armoatize, but it will reduce to DHN ( aka deca dick).

Nandrolone does convert to estrogen, but only at roughly 20% the rate of test.

[Metalject]

Nandrolone does convert to estrogen, but only at roughly 20% the rate of test.

You're right, and when coupled with test that's a lot of activity.

[Metalject]

This is a theoretical cycle which I am planning and hoping to start after advise and feedback from you guys. Main point is to discuss NATURAL prolactin inhibitors and the suppression of estrogen. So here goes:

Week 1-10 deca 200 0.5ml eod
Week 1-12 test 400. 0.4ml eod
Arimidex (on hand I'll explain)
Caber/prami (on hand I'll explain)
Hog 250iu's x 2 week
Pct clomid 100/50/50/50 nolvadex 40/20/20/20

My theory is that you could control prolactin with natural inhibitors such as :

Vitamin B6 160-320 mgs day
Ginkgo biloba 6000mg day
Korean ginseng 800mg day
Vitamin E (not sure on dosage yet still checking)

Also I have read that the suppression of estrogen (with Arimidex etc) can come with side effects such as lathargy and hinder gains therefore when on cycle not to use an A.I unless symptoms of gyno start and instead block the receptor with tamoxifen.

Could this actually work?

Remember this is theoretical I just like to hear from the knowledgable people here.
Cheers in advance Peace.

Nolvadex can protect you from gyno when its directly due to aromatization, but when progesterone becomes an issue it's not going to get the job done. Obviously, Deca is a progestin and AI's will have a far more positive effect...AI's can combat progestin based gyno.

When it comes to AI's and side effects, I think a lot of guys are making too much of the "AI's hinder gains" claim. Yes, you need some estrogen but a low dose of an AI isn't going to kill all of it. Now a lot of guys use a much larger AI dose than they need to many times. The biggest concern with AI's though is cholesterol, but this is easy to control with your diet.

HCG, I've already said this on this board a couple of times but I'll keep saying it. I'm not a fan of HCG while on cycle. It's too easy for the body to become dependent on it and then your HPTA is screwed. The benefit of on cycle HCG use, there is no real benefit IMO. Sure, your balls are fuller but that's not an actual benefit. Further, although you're keeping your testicles primed with LH it's 100% fake...HCG causes an LH mimicking effect, it's not real. HCG is best used post cycle IMO as a prime for the SERM therapy to come. Short-term use at a decent dose and then done with it.

I've also asked this question on this board in the short time I've been here but haven't been offered an explanation yet. Why both Nolva and Clomid for your PCT? I don't think it hurts anything but I also think it's unnecessary...someone explain to me the advantage. IMO, you could get the same PCT results with just one of these SERM's but the total dosing of the one you picked would need to be varied significantly compared to the way you have it laid out.

[petkevich]

Don't run novladex with deca

[Lemonada8]

Nolvadex can protect you from gyno when its directly due to aromatization, but when progesterone becomes an issue it's not going to get the job done. No such thing as progestrone gyno. Prolactin gyno, yes but progesterone... no Obviously, Deca is a progestin and AI's will have a far more positive effect...AI's can combat progestin based gyno. they combat progestin based gyno by controlling estrogen levels, along with the fact that estrogen enhances prolactins potency in the body so when E goes up the prolactin has an increase in its actions at the breast tissue. ( even if prolactin levels dont change at all) , So by controlling estrogen you control prolactin.
When it comes to AI's and side effects, I think a lot of guys are making too much of the "AI's hinder gains" claim. Yes, you need some estrogen but a low dose of an AI isn't going to kill all of it. Now a lot of guys use a much larger AI dose than they need to many times. The biggest concern with AI's though is cholesterol, but this is easy to control with your diet.
HCG, I've already said this on this board a couple of times but I'll keep saying it. I'm not a fan of HCG while on cycle. It's too easy for the body to become dependent on it and then your HPTA is screwed. The benefit of on cycle HCG use, there is no real benefit IMO. Sure, your balls are fuller but that's not an actual benefit. It actually is a benefit. It keeps the intratesticular testosterone levels high which helps prevent any apoptosis by the leydig and sertoli cells. Further, although you're keeping your testicles primed with LH it's 100% fake...HCG causes an LH mimicking effect, it's not real. HCG is best used post cycle IMO as a prime for the SERM therapy Thats a bogus claim. HCG and SERM therapy are counter productive, and will increase the amount of LH that is secreted to become biologically inactive, which is a real problem. to come. Short-term use at a decent dose and then done with it. I completely disagree here with your statement. HCG on cycle is a must. If you wish to argue that, then you should search for some HCG threads and start the arguement there on how the body becomes " dependent" on HCG... Here and here
HCG should be used on EVERY CYCLE, due to its actions in the testes.

I've also asked this question on this board in the short time I've been here but haven't been offered an explanation yet. Why both Nolva and Clomid for your PCT? I don't think it hurts anything but I also think it's unnecessary...someone explain to me the advantage. IMO, you could get the same PCT results with just one of these SERM's but the total dosing of the one you picked would need to be varied significantly compared to the way you have it laid out. because they have different actions at the pituitary gland. I wrote a small bit about this in a different thread Here ( if i did that right :P ). if you have any comments, please reply there. im not gonna start that type of debate in this thread

Prolactin rises from Progestins because they have an increased affinity for the AR. And there is a long feedback look with testosterone in the hypothalamus which in the case of very high testosterone ( supraphysiologic amounts) the secretion of prolactin occurs to help slow down the levels of test in the body, its an effect of very high androgen levels in the body. Now, since this is induced by injecting test at those amounts and combined with other synthetic androgens that have an increased affinity for the AR, this effect is increased alot. ex. Tren has the binding strength 5x that of test on the AR. So using 100mg tren, the brain sees approx 500mg test, and when those levels get to high the hypothalamus stimulates prolactin secretoin because it thinks that the body is normally producing these hormones. Prolacin then goes to suppres GnRH at the pituitary level to lower the LH and FSH levels that it secretes. Deca and Test have about the same binding affinities so prolactin isnt nearly as common as it is with Tren, but still has to be considered.

Don't run novladex with deca

That is old, and incorrect info. That has been shown to be not true on how Nolva will enhance the gyno growth with the use of Nandrolone.

Nandrolone does convert to estrogen, but only at roughly 20% the rate of test.

Really? Guess i missed that lil bit.. I cant seem to find my sources on affinities, if u have one readily available can u share? :-), if not thats cool i can check out some of my books and look in there. But I know u know ur stuff so ill take ur word on it.


That actually supports my suggestion of using a TRT dose of test and then using a higher dose of Deca. Since it does aromatize so little, and actually DHN has a lower affinity compared to DHT in the erectile tissues it would help avoid the 'deca dick'. what would actually be best would be to use a DHT compound also ( so TRT dose test, 2x deca compared to test, and a DHT compound) would almost prevent deca dick. However everyone is different and i am making that claim off of receptor affinities and the chemical properties of the steroids, and knowing physiology. I guess i didnt explain myself enough the first time.

Ok I'll hop down now

[bigsiv]

Wow guys excellent advise lemonada8 thanx a lot I appreciate the explanations!!!

[Bonaparte]

Really? Guess i missed that lil bit.. I cant seem to find my sources on affinities, if u have one readily available can u share? :-), if not thats cool i can check out some of my books and look in there. But I know u know ur stuff so ill take ur word on it.

Just Google: "nandrolone affinity for aromatase" and you'll find several results.
Big Cat cited this study for the claim that it possesses 1/5th the affinity of test for the aromatase enzyme: "Ryan K. Biological aromatization of steroids J. Biol. Chem., Feb 1959; 234: 268 - 272.."

BTW, this is post number 8,000 for me

[bigsiv]

Lol congratulations Bonaparte I'm privileged it's on my thread lol I'll check that link out as well thanx for the help

[Metalject]

Prolactin rises from Progestins because they have an increased affinity for the AR. And there is a long feedback look with testosterone in the hypothalamus which in the case of very high testosterone ( supraphysiologic amounts) the secretion of prolactin occurs to help slow down the levels of test in the body, its an effect of very high androgen levels in the body. Now, since this is induced by injecting test at those amounts and combined with other synthetic androgens that have an increased affinity for the AR, this effect is increased alot. ex. Tren has the binding strength 5x that of test on the AR. So using 100mg tren, the brain sees approx 500mg test, and when those levels get to high the hypothalamus stimulates prolactin secretoin because it thinks that the body is normally producing these hormones. Prolacin then goes to suppres GnRH at the pituitary level to lower the LH and FSH levels that it secretes. Deca and Test have about the same binding affinities so prolactin isnt nearly as common as it is with Tren, but still has to be considered.


That is old, and incorrect info. That has been shown to be not true on how Nolva will enhance the gyno growth with the use of Nandrolone.



Really? Guess i missed that lil bit.. I cant seem to find my sources on affinities, if u have one readily available can u share? :-), if not thats cool i can check out some of my books and look in there. But I know u know ur stuff so ill take ur word on it.


That actually supports my suggestion of using a TRT dose of test and then using a higher dose of Deca. Since it does aromatize so little, and actually DHN has a lower affinity compared to DHT in the erectile tissues it would help avoid the 'deca dick'. what would actually be best would be to use a DHT compound also ( so TRT dose test, 2x deca compared to test, and a DHT compound) would almost prevent deca dick. However everyone is different and i am making that claim off of receptor affinities and the chemical properties of the steroids, and knowing physiology. I guess i didnt explain myself enough the first time.

Ok I'll hop down now

HCG Post Cycle - From Anabolics:"It is important to note that the use of anti-estrogens alone is generally not regarded as an effective strategy for addressing hormone recovery at the conclusion of a steroid cycle. This is because these drugs only work by fostering the heightened release of luteinizing hormone. We expect that post-cycle window is already partly characterized by normal/high LH levels. Thus, while anti-estrogens may have an additive effect in this regard, they do not effectively and directly address the main roadblock to hormonal recovery after steroid use, namely testicular atrophy. Because of this, it is also generall advised to directly target the testes with hCG."

Prolactin/Progestin Gyno: good article -http://www.*************.net/articles/progesterone-and-prolactin/

[Lemonada8]

HCG Post Cycle - From Anabolics:"It is important to note that the use of anti-estrogens alone is generally not regarded as an effective strategy for addressing hormone recovery at the conclusion of a steroid cycle. This is because these drugs only work by fostering the heightened release of luteinizing hormone. We expect that post-cycle window is already partly characterized by normal/high LH levels. Thus, while anti-estrogens may have an additive effect in this regard, they do not effectively and directly address the main roadblock to hormonal recovery after steroid use, namely testicular atrophy. Because of this, it is also generall advised to directly target the testes with hCG."

Prolactin/Progestin Gyno: good article -http://www.*************.net/articles/progesterone-and-prolactin/

So ur gonna parrot somone elses research? Since u arent the author i wont debate the points made. G day

[Metalject]

So ur gonna parrot somone elses research? Since u arent the author i wont debate the points made. G day

That's weak, very weak. I hate to break this to you, but you're probably not the one that discovered all the traits of HCG and prolactin and things like that. This means over the years you've learned various things from reading various things...putting the pieces of a puzzle together.

I gave you the HCG quote in an effort to back up what I was saying. I gave the gyno link (which looks like it was deleted, guess you can't post links on here) for the same reason. This is how a discussion is furthered...backing up points with reference.

[Lemonada8]

That's weak, very weak. I hate to break this to you, but you're probably not the one that discovered all the traits of HCG and prolactin and things like that. This means over the years you've learned various things from reading various things...putting the pieces of a puzzle together.

I gave you the HCG quote in an effort to back up what I was saying. I gave the gyno link (which looks like it was deleted, guess you can't post links on here) for the same reason. This is how a discussion is furthered...backing up points with reference.

Those aren't references however. If you notice the Writings on this site are backed up by scientific papers And have a bibliography. Those 2 ones u posted did not. I found the Gyno paper u referred to and it really didnt have any relevance to the issue here, and had no sources listed.
The hcg quote is very arguable, I'm on my phone though and don't wanna get that long in this thread. Like I said go back to the threads I listed about hcg and make those claims there.

And I never said I found the traits of hcg n prolactin, I dunno where u got that from.