High Hemoglobin

[KINGKONG]

Ive been on HGH and AS for a long time now mostly low dose test with primo and var switched in here and there at different times..I live a healthy life, Iam constantly in the gym and eat clean and dont drink or smoke..I would have to beleive the elevated hemoglobin has to do with the juice or growth?Its not something that runs in my family..I dunno the doctor wants me to get a sleep study he thinks I might have sleep apnea that would cause a lack of oxygen in my blood..Anybody ever heard of steriods or growth causing high hemoglobin?

[fit2bOld]

AAS use causes high red blood cell count that can be lowered by giving blood. Hemoglobin is a protien found in the cell it can be caused by drug use, and kidneys releasing to much protein into the blood.

Maybe give blood and cut back on excess protein intake and retest a few weeks later, cheaper than a sleep study unless you have good insurance

[Atomini]

AAS do for a fact increase hemoglobin levels, as they signal the kidneys to start secreting Erythropoietin (EPO). EPO is the hormone that signals your bone marrow to start cranking up red blood cell production, and therefore hemoglobin levels. Some AAS increase the secretion of EPO more than others (Anadrol being one of them). Many AAS are used in medicine to treat anemic individuals (people with very low red blood cell counts) in order to bolster their hemoglobin levels. Though, this is more of a practice that was done in the past. Today, they just give these people EPO injections instead of AAS.

A few common things that increase hemoglobin levels:
- Anabolic steroids and growth peptides (HGH, etc.)
- Intense physical exercise
- Lengthy arobic exercise
- Lack of oxygen (either from sleep apnea, or from living/training in a low oxygen or high altitude environemnt)
- Smoking (causes alveoli death in the lung cells, therefore less oxygen uptake through the lungs will force the body to adapt to its lack of O2 demands by increasing red blood cell count)
- Genetics

And there are a lot of other causes.

I would say that your high hemoglobin levels are specifically due to your AAS use and weight training. Even those who train naturally without the use of AAS have high hemoglobin levels, simply due to the increased O2 demands that come with intense physical exercise. This is one of the reasons why athletes typically have a lower resting heart rate than the average person (especially endurance athletes).

I personally have very high hemoglobin levels. I have had it this way for many years, and my doctor has noted it but we understand what is causing it (AAS use and physical exercise). High hemogrlobin isn't really a bad thing, but the idea is to make sure it doesn't go TOO high. Even as someone who just engages in physical training (excluding AAS), we are going to have higher hemoglobin levels than the average human. If level gets extremely high, however, then you run the risk of high blood pressure and other related risks. Some of the things you can do to keep levels low is to donate blood, or stay off AAS for a while (red blood cell life is on average 3 months).

The red blood cell production increasing effects of AAS is the big reason why we get such incredible pumps in the gym while on cycle too.

[fit2bOld]

^^^^^^Thanks for the great wealth of info in your post Atomoni.
Get to learn new things every time I'm here.

[John Andrew]

AOMINi IS 100% CORRECT. Nothing else to add really. Good luck John




+

[Sgt. Hartman]

Atomini pretty much summed it up for you but I'll just add do NOT underestimate the impirtance of monitiring bp while on cycle. High rbc will eventually cause elevated bp which can lead to various CV problems like left ventricular hypertrophy etc.

[Atomini]

Here, as an example, take a look at a scan of my bloodwork. My most recent bloodwork was 4 months ago but I unfortunately forgot to ask the Dr. for a printout for myself to file at home. So, the latest bloodwork I can show you guys is from January 2011. But nevertheless, you can see the trend in my hemoglobin levels over the years dating back to 2009 i've outlined it in the scan, here:



As you can see, my hemoglobin level floats around 181. It was actually 181 4 months ago. The test here shows Jan 2011 as 177. It went down a bit for a period, and it was interesting because it was around that time I took a longer break between cycles. I didn't cycle as much in 2010. Note that the normal range for an average human is between 135 - 170. The base average is likely around the 150 mark, which means myself having levels of 181 is pretty high up there. If it was any higher, it would be a concern for me and I would have to take measures to correct this issue.

[KINGKONG]

thank you everyone for your input..Atomini esp thanks for the great post!!Thats why I love this forum..

[MuscleInk]

AAS do for a fact increase hemoglobin levels, as they signal the kidneys to start secreting Erythropoietin (EPO). EPO is the hormone that signals your bone marrow to start cranking up red blood cell production, and therefore hemoglobin levels. Some AAS increase the secretion of EPO more than others (Anadrol being one of them). Many AAS are used in medicine to treat anemic individuals (people with very low red blood cell counts) in order to bolster their hemoglobin levels. Though, this is more of a practice that was done in the past. Today, they just give these people EPO injections instead of AAS.

A few common things that increase hemoglobin levels:
- Anabolic steroids and growth peptides (HGH, etc.)
- Intense physical exercise
- Lengthy arobic exercise
- Lack of oxygen (either from sleep apnea, or from living/training in a low oxygen or high altitude environemnt)
- Smoking (causes alveoli death in the lung cells, therefore less oxygen uptake through the lungs will force the body to adapt to its lack of O2 demands by increasing red blood cell count)
- Genetics

And there are a lot of other causes.

I would say that your high hemoglobin levels are specifically due to your AAS use and weight training. Even those who train naturally without the use of AAS have high hemoglobin levels, simply due to the increased O2 demands that come with intense physical exercise. This is one of the reasons why athletes typically have a lower resting heart rate than the average person (especially endurance athletes).

I personally have very high hemoglobin levels. I have had it this way for many years, and my doctor has noted it but we understand what is causing it (AAS use and physical exercise). High hemogrlobin isn't really a bad thing, but the idea is to make sure it doesn't go TOO high. Even as someone who just engages in physical training (excluding AAS), we are going to have higher hemoglobin levels than the average human. If level gets extremely high, however, then you run the risk of high blood pressure and other related risks. Some of the things you can do to keep levels low is to donate blood, or stay off AAS for a while (red blood cell life is on average 3 months).

The red blood cell production increasing effects of AAS is the big reason why we get such incredible pumps in the gym while on cycle too.

Show off.

Which one of us was the physician again??? lol

Your answer is spot on. Thanks for posting such an accurate and detailed response brother.

[MuscleInk]

Here, as an example, take a look at a scan of my bloodwork. My most recent bloodwork was 4 months ago but I unfortunately forgot to ask the Dr. for a printout for myself to file at home. So, the latest bloodwork I can show you guys is from January 2011. But nevertheless, you can see the trend in my hemoglobin levels over the years dating back to 2009 i've outlined it in the scan, here:



As you can see, my hemoglobin level floats around 181. It was actually 181 4 months ago. The test here shows Jan 2011 as 177. It went down a bit for a period, and it was interesting because it was around that time I took a longer break between cycles. I didn't cycle as much in 2010. Note that the normal range for an average human is between 135 - 170. The base average is likely around the 150 mark, which means myself having levels of 181 is pretty high up there. If it was any higher, it would be a concern for me and I would have to take measures to correct this issue.

Ok....now you're scaring me. I thought I was the one with OCD. lol

[KINGKONG]

Its funny my doc knew just by looking at me I did AAS but didnt put 2 and 2 together but you guys did in a sec..Iam check my results and post them...this is interesting I knew that drol for instance increased red blood cell counts just didnt put it all together myself..Ive been scared to sleep they told me I could have a stroke.. Ill sleep much better tonight..

[KINGKONG]

Show off.

Which one of us was the physician again??? lol

Your answer is spot on. Thanks for posting such an accurate and detailed response brother.

Serious spot on...Thanks again...

[MuscleInk]

Serious spot on...Thanks again...

His (Atomini) level of knowledge and understanding scares the hell out of me!

[KINGKONG]

it made me feel alot better...I was scared..They sent a certified letter to my house saying my hemoglobin was so high I was going to have a stroke..I gotta a second doctors opinion and that was not to worry but follow the first docs orders which were get a c-pap machine and sleep study I cant afford..giving blood and staying clean for three monthes is cake..Ive been having trouble sleeping with stress over it..Thank god for the internet and good helpful ppl...

[KINGKONG]

the three things that were off on my test were a
rbc-6.32 mil/mm3
hgb-19.5 g/dl
hct-57.8 %
whatever all that means..it's high i guess lol

[KINGKONG]

Iam only taking 300mg of test/wk and 300mg primo/wk..You think its necessary to quit that?I was just getting some solid gains..

[Bonaparte]

Iam only taking 300mg of test/wk and 300mg primo/wk..You think its necessary to quit that?I was just getting some solid gains..

Primo has very little impact on RBCs. Test has a pretty good impact. Just lower the test and you can keep the primo going strong.

With the exception of EQ, the more anabolic a steroid is in vivo, the more it tends to increase hematocrit. This is because they act on the kidneys to encourage erythropoesis, and renal tissue is similar in receptor composition and enzymes to muscle tissue.

[Leisure Suite Larry]

Some doctors just try to scare patients sometimes. I've had high RBC in the past and the doc was saying all these aweful things that could happen. Later when i stopped the gear and my RBC was still high he said my results were fine and i have nothing to worry about. So clearly he was trying to scare me away from the gear, doctors can actually be sued and have their licenses canceled for this type of behaviour.

I went to the red cross to try and give blood but they wouldn't let me cause i said i'd been using steroids that weren't prescribed by a doctor, so legally they see that as recreational drug use like injecting cocaine etc etc. So no matter how sick "i could have got" they still wouldn't let me give blood. Governments aye pfffftttt........

I was contemplating taking my own blood for a while, buying all the surgical equipment and everything and then hooking myself up to a nice thick IV

[KINGKONG]

Primo has very little impact on RBCs. Test has a pretty good impact. Just lower the test and you can keep the primo going strong.

With the exception of EQ, the more anabolic a steroid is in vivo, the more it tends to increase hematocrit. This is because they act on the kidneys to encourage erythropoesis, and renal tissue is similar in receptor composition and enzymes to muscle tissue.

Cool, thats what I'll do then back off the test or just get off or run primo till I get good bloodwork back..Rather stay healthy than be big?

[fit2bOld]

Been Hrt over 3 years and have watched these #'s climb on my blood work as well Dr. Was never to alarmed by it says give blood and cardio to help control BP as that's already medicated

[KINGKONG]

Been Hrt over 3 years and have watched these #'s climb on my blood work as well Dr. Was never to alarmed by it says give blood and cardio to help control BP as that's already medicated

yeah my bp and lipid panel are perfect.. i just have a high creatine level 1.4 in my kidneys and the high red blood cells I was thinking Iam a healthy 32 year old that eats clean and works my ass off in the gym and out..Why would I have these numbers? they were talking about putting me on 24 hour a day oxygen..I was freaking out thinking I had bone cancer or something crazy..So you guys suggest keeping up the cardio..just using the primo at say 450mg/wk for right now, give blood and the numbers should decline.. Btw i think my kidneys are jacked from wayyy too much whey over the years..On the advice of a buddy I just started eating nothing but whole foods..Its kinda tough eating so many meals with whole foods but Ive been noticing I grow much better...

[KINGKONG]

Some doctors just try to scare patients sometimes. I've had high RBC in the past and the doc was saying all these aweful things that could happen. Later when i stopped the gear and my RBC was still high he said my results were fine and i have nothing to worry about. So clearly he was trying to scare me away from the gear, doctors can actually be sued and have their licenses canceled for this type of behaviour.

I went to the red cross to try and give blood but they wouldn't let me cause i said i'd been using steroids that weren't prescribed by a doctor, so legally they see that as recreational drug use like injecting cocaine etc etc. So no matter how sick "i could have got" they still wouldn't let me give blood. Governments aye pfffftttt........

I was contemplating taking my own blood for a while, buying all the surgical equipment and everything and then hooking myself up to a nice thick IV

Larry I love your games lol I had a mispent youth playing those games u ever play full throttle from sierra, that was one of my favs when i was a kid or police quest!!Awsome..anyways your right about the politics of the medical proffesion..They bust our balls for juice and refuse medical help, but yet some herion addict can go get pity and help..Its because we dont look pitiful bodybuilders come in looking great and everyone has no pity for a pretty, healthy guy who has his sh!t together...double standards

[Atomini]

Kingkong,

You dont have bone cancer and you're not going to die. Your doctors are overexaggerating over these numbers. I too have high creatinine levels, i'll show you the rest of my bloodwork scans if you want, and its been that way for over 5 years (even before I started juicing) lol. Most of us here have this because of our weight training and high protein diets.

Listen... 95% of doctors are used to treating run of the mill lazy people who do not work out or lead healthy lifestyles. They do not understand that certain values will be different and higher (or lower) than the average joe bloe for us athletes. My doctor is a great understanding guy - the first 2 bloodwork results that showed high creatinine, he was a little concerned but he understood that I eat a high protein diet, and I weight train... those two things will increase protein turnover rates in the body, and therefore naturally creatinine levels will rise. Many doctors mistake that for dehydration symptoms, but for us it is not that case. If your creatinine levels are VERY high, then it is a concern.

But all of these things - higher creatinine, higher hemoglobin - its all normal to have this if you weight train or engange in some form of intense physical exercise on a regular basis (even if you DONT use AAS). If you do use AAS, these levels will be even higher, but shouldn't be in the danger zone.

This is why I always advise people to seek out a sports medicine doctor instead of your average run-of-the-mill GP. Regular GPs do not normally have patients that engage in this lifestyle that we do. Sports medicine doctors fully understand this, and they specialize in it.

If you owned a Lamborghini Murcielago, would you take it to your local around-the-corner mechanic for regular scheduled maintenance? HELL NO!

[gixxerboy1]

i had bloodwork last month. Mine is also high, and ck levels have been elevated for probably 10 years

[Atomini]

i had bloodwork last month. Mine is also high, and ck levels have been elevated for probably 10 years

Yep, that's been the way for me as well. My doctor long ago acknowledged that i'm not one of his common run of the mill patients and that my high creatinine levels are due to training and high protein diet. He mentioned that I am one of the very few perfectly healthy patients he has. I see him once a year aside from scheduling any bloodwork.

One extra thing that's interesting: scroll above and take a look at my platelet levels over the years.

[KINGKONG]

Kingkong,

You dont have bone cancer and you're not going to die. Your doctors are overexaggerating over these numbers. I too have high creatinine levels, i'll show you the rest of my bloodwork scans if you want, and its been that way for over 5 years (even before I started juicing) lol. Most of us here have this because of our weight training and high protein diets.

Listen... 95% of doctors are used to treating run of the mill lazy people who do not work out or lead healthy lifestyles. They do not understand that certain values will be different and higher (or lower) than the average joe bloe for us athletes. My doctor is a great understanding guy - the first 2 bloodwork results that showed high creatinine, he was a little concerned but he understood that I eat a high protein diet, and I weight train... those two things will increase protein turnover rates in the body, and therefore naturally creatinine levels will rise. Many doctors mistake that for dehydration symptoms, but for us it is not that case. If your creatinine levels are VERY high, then it is a concern.

But all of these things - higher creatinine, higher hemoglobin - its all normal to have this if you weight train or engange in some form of intense physical exercise on a regular basis (even if you DONT use AAS). If you do use AAS, these levels will be even higher, but shouldn't be in the danger zone.

This is why I always advise people to seek out a sports medicine doctor instead of your average run-of-the-mill GP. Regular GPs do not normally have patients that engage in this lifestyle that we do. Sports medicine doctors fully understand this, and they specialize in it.

If you owned a Lamborghini Murcielago, would you take it to your local around-the-corner mechanic for regular scheduled maintenance? HELL NO!

Your the man lol the two things I was all worried about u explained better than my doc..You guys are great I slept last night great for the first time..they had me so anxious it made me scared to sleep..You should really b proud of that..Today I feel so much better I should post the letter it looked like the grim reaper wrote it lol
thanks to all you guys, you guys are good ppl!Us bodybuilding freaks as this old lady called me and my friend the other day gotta stick together..