Input for first cycle for 34 yo male

[xerxes333]

Stas

• Age 34
• Height 6 ft (183 cm)
• Weight 195 lbs (88.5 kg)
• BF ~10%
• Lifting for 15+ years
• Eating right for 10+ years

Nutrition
P/C/F 45/30/25
sups

• whey
• 369 oil
• creatine
• BCAA's
• Glucosamine

Routine
Over the years I have done several types of routines: 5x5, DC, Yates, Hypertrophy, Tri-phase, power lifting among others. I find that I start to plateau around week 8 in most cases and end up switching at that point. I prefer the Tri-phase as it keeps my muscles guessing.

I recently (6/28) had a MED surgery on a herniated disc L5-S1 and I am currently recovering. I had been living with the sciatic pain for about 12 years and it was to the point were I was unable to function. So I finally decided to get the surgery. I still have some pain but not nearly as bad as before.

My Doctor and Surgeon believe that by the end of Sept I should be able to start getting back to a "normal" routine. I anticipate taking Oct-Dec to build back to 100% of where I was (Oct->50%, Nov->75%, Dec->100%)

My current rehab routine is listed below with about 20-30 min LIT cardio after my workout. The weights I'm using are VERY light as per the Doctors instruction. For example my two heaviest lifts right now are bench (75 lbs) and Squat (105 lbs) all others are much lighter. I feel as though I can lift much more but I don't want to screw up anything from the surgery.

M: Chest/Tri
T: Legs
W: Back/Bi
R: Abs/Calf
F: Shoulders/Upper Back



Results I'm looking for
I have read the nutrition articles, beginner cycles, and PCT several times over the past few years but they don't seem to be directed at the results I'm looking for. Obviously I'm not going to start anything until I'm back to 100%, I'm just researching now.

Simply put, I want to look like Greg Plitt or Julien Greaux. Specifically I don't care to "get" bigger I just want to "look" bigger. I want larger belies on my muscles with more definition between muscle groups.

I'm curious about novice cycles that keep you cut and also keep the gains after the cycle is done.

Many of the stickies and articles I have read says to just do test (plus some dbol first few weeks of the cycle) for the first cycle. It makes sense because I can see how my body will react, but how much of the gains will I loose if I simply stop after the first cycle? Will I keep any gains at all?

I'm not looking for an easy way out, I don't mind grinding out hard to get results. But I really feel like I've gotten as far as I can.

[austinite]

Welcome.

Your first cycle should be Test only. The results you're looking for will be determined by your diet and type of training you do, not by the gear. The gear will help along the way.

A good first cycle should look like this...

Test E @ 500mg Every week. Pinned twice a week @ 250mg per shot (Mon/Thurs). For 12 weeks.
You need to take an Aromitaze Inhibitor while on cycle. Such as Adex, @ .25 Every other day starting from your first injection to the last.
You can consider HCG to speed up recovery and prevent testicular atrophy, dose @ 250iu twice per week while on cycle. Not for PCT usage.
Post Cycle Therapy should start 14 days after your last injection. This should consist of both clomid and nolva and dosed like so clomid 100/50/50/50 and novla 40/20/20/20

Best of luck.

[BlueWaffle21]

Go through all this info and then post up with any further questions!!

First Cycle Protocol

Test E or C for 12 weeks at 500mg per week. The 500mg is split between 2 shots that are 3.5 days apart, so Monday morning and Thursday evening for example.

Please see this thread by jimmyinkedup for further explanation: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...59&postcount=5

You want to run and AI from day 1 of your cycle to control estrogen levels. You can use Arimidex or Aromasin to do so.

Please see this thread by Swifto for more info:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...n-cycle-Swifto

Proper PCT is needed to return your natural testosterone levels back to normal. This will involve the use of Clomid, which is up for debate with Atomini, and Nolvadex. Clomid is dosed at 100/50/50/50 per week and Nolvadex is dosed at 40/20/20/20 per week.

For more information regarding PCT start times:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=94822

For more information regarding proper PCT:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...y-Steroid.com-)

HCG can be incorporated into your cycle and how to do so is debatable also. Most vets recommend 250 IU every 3.5 days starting in the second week up until the start of your PCT.

For more info please read Swifto’s HCG thread:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...mportant-is-it

[austinite]

Good info and links from BlueWaffle.

[xerxes333]

Thanks Guys. So whats the gain retention after the first cycle? Assuming I do a standard 12 week Test E cycle with PCT and then never touch the stuff again. Would I keep any gains or would it all be for naught?


BlueWaffle: Thanks for the links, I have read many of those articles already and in my original post I had linked to them but since this was my first post since joining the forums in 2009 I had to remove the links.

[BlueWaffle21]

I gained 20 lbs my first cycle and I'm four weeks out and have kept 18-19lbs. Hopefully that stays on for the next couple months, it's all about feeding the new muscle so you have to keep the calories up. As everyone says on here, Eat big and get big!

[Trying-Hard]

Welcome.

Your first cycle should be Test only. The results you're looking for will be determined by your diet and type of training you do, not by the gear. The gear will help along the way.

A good first cycle should look like this...

Test E @ 500mg Every week. Pinned twice a week @ 250mg per shot (Mon/Thurs). For 12 weeks.
You need to take an Aromitaze Inhibitor while on cycle. Such as Adex, @ .25 Every other day starting from your first injection to the last.
You can consider HCG to speed up recovery and prevent testicular atrophy, dose @ 250iu twice per week while on cycle. Not for PCT usage.
Post Cycle Therapy should start 14 days after your last injection. This should consist of both clomid and nolva and dosed like so clomid 100/50/50/50 and novla 40/20/20/20

Best of luck.

Go through all this info and then post up with any further questions!!

First Cycle Protocol

Test E or C for 12 weeks at 500mg per week. The 500mg is split between 2 shots that are 3.5 days apart, so Monday morning and Thursday evening for example.

Please see this thread by jimmyinkedup for further explanation: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...59&postcount=5

You want to run and AI from day 1 of your cycle to control estrogen levels. You can use Arimidex or Aromasin to do so.

Please see this thread by Swifto for more info:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...n-cycle-Swifto

Proper PCT is needed to return your natural testosterone levels back to normal. This will involve the use of Clomid, which is up for debate with Atomini, and Nolvadex. Clomid is dosed at 100/50/50/50 per week and Nolvadex is dosed at 40/20/20/20 per week.

For more information regarding PCT start times:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=94822

For more information regarding proper PCT:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...y-Steroid.com-)

HCG can be incorporated into your cycle and how to do so is debatable also. Most vets recommend 250 IU every 3.5 days starting in the second week up until the start of your PCT.

For more info please read Swifto’s HCG thread:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...mportant-is-it

The forum needs to have an automated reply with the above two quotes each and every time someone asks about a first cycle. Nice one, fellas.

[BlueWaffle21]

The forum needs to have an automated reply with the above two quotes each and every time someone asks about a first cycle. Nice one, fellas.

That's why I typed that up, I'm trying to hit everyone with it that asks the 1st cycle question. There shouldn't be many general questions after reading all that info!

[xerxes333]

Trying-Hard: I agree, most people asking first cycle questions have likely not read those posts and it would be nice to have an "auto first cycle response" button.

My question (if you can call it that) was not what/when to cycle but rather individuals experiences after the basic cycle. I have been researching this both online and offline for the better half of a decade and one thing I learned is that there is not "one" solution that works for everybody. I'm trying to glean information from others experiences so I have a better understanding should I decide to give this a try.

So do you have any personal experience you can share that would educate me better?

[Trying-Hard]

So do you have any personal experience you can share that would educate me better?

Sorry, I do not. I am on my first cycle right now and learning along the way.

Heck, I don't even know when to start PCT when I am through my cycle, lol. Even that subject seems to have conflicting answers.

[ANIMAL]

The only thing I disagree with the above posters is the doses of HCG throughout your cycle. HCG will lose it's potency if used for an extended period of time in your body. On top of which, can actually do the opposite of what you want it to do and shut you down.

I have had personal experience doing it that way and doing it the way I've learned from serious vets and knowledgeable doctors. What's the point in starting HCG the first day you PIN when the test doesn't even kick in for 3 weeks?

So you're 2 weeks after your last pin, your test levels are going to start coming down, HCG mimics LH, inhibits your body from making LH. So your body is like "we don't need to make LH because we have enough in the blood stream." You want your testicles to start producing test on it's own since you've been on cycle where you've been receiving test from an outside source. LH stimulates your balls to make test so you load HCG in PCT to start the process instead of stopping it before PCT.

I'm always open to hear others reasoning behind what they do, so if you disagree with me, let's hear why.

[BlueWaffle21]

The only thing I disagree with the above posters is the doses of HCG throughout your cycle. HCG will lose it's potency if used for an extended period of time in your body. On top of which, can actually do the opposite of what you want it to do and shut you down.

I have had personal experience doing it that way and doing it the way I've learned from serious vets and knowledgeable doctors. What's the point in starting HCG the first day you PIN when the test doesn't even kick in for 3 weeks?

So you're 2 weeks after your last pin, your test levels are going to start coming down, HCG mimics LH, inhibits your body from making LH. So your body is like "we don't need to make LH because we have enough in the blood stream." You want your testicles to start producing test on it's own since you've been on cycle where you've been receiving test from an outside source. LH stimulates your balls to make test so you load HCG in PCT to start the process instead of stopping it before PCT.

I'm always open to hear others reasoning behind what they do, so if you disagree with me, let's hear why.

Most people say to start it on the second or third week. What's your way?

[xerxes333]

Sorry, I do not. I am on my first cycle right now and learning along the way.

Heck, I don't even know when to start PCT when I am through my cycle, lol. Even that subject seems to have conflicting answers.

Hows the first cycle coming for you? Whats your stack?

[Trying-Hard]

xerxes333, you can follow my log here:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...mg-wk-12-weeks!

I am also looking forward to hearing ANIMAL's way of taking HCG, although I am guessing from reading his post that he starts it at the very beginning of PCT.

[ANIMAL]

If you look at what we want HCG to do then logically you can dose it on what it actually does. Taking it from the start of a cycle, is pointless if you are using CYP/Enanthate. Prop is a different story, because it's fast acting.

Either compound kicks in around the 3rd week. So at the beginning of week 4 you start your HCG. It WILL lose it's potency in your body if you continue it from week 4-12, that's 8 weeks on. Instead you would cycle it throughout:

3 weeks off
3 week on @ 500iu 2x/week
2 weeks off
2 weeks on @ 500iu 2x/week
2 weeks off

That would bring you to week 12. You start PCT on week 14. At this time you load on HCG to shock your testicles into producing TEST on it's own since your test levels are dropping being that you have been without CYP/Enan for 2 weeks.

Week 1 1000iu 2x
Week 2 500iu 2x
Week 3 250iu 2x

[Trying-Hard]

3 weeks off
3 week on
2 weeks off
2 weeks on
2 weeks off

At what doses for the "on" time?

[ANIMAL]

At what doses for the "on" time?

Edited.

[BlueWaffle21]

I wish Swifto or Atomini would jump in on this, I'm curious to see if this would work.

[ANIMAL]

I wish Swifto or Atomini would jump in on this, I'm curious to see if this would work.

I've always done Swifto's protocol until I read in depth what HCG does and what we are looking for HCG to do. Not saying his way doesn't work, but this makes more sense.

[xerxes333]

So whats the advantage of TestC over TestE? According to the profiles page they "are virtually identical in every way". Is TestC faster acting than TestE thus removing the need for dbol at the beginning of the cycle?

[Swifto]

I wish Swifto or Atomini would jump in on this, I'm curious to see if this would work.

Here I am

The only thing I disagree with the above posters is the doses of HCG throughout your cycle. HCG will lose it's potency if used for an extended period of time in your body. On top of which, can actually do the opposite of what you want it to do and shut you down.

I have had personal experience doing it that way and doing it the way I've learned from serious vets and knowledgeable doctors. What's the point in starting HCG the first day you PIN when the test doesn't even kick in for 3 weeks?

So you're 2 weeks after your last pin, your test levels are going to start coming down, HCG mimics LH, inhibits your body from making LH. So your body is like "we don't need to make LH because we have enough in the blood stream." You want your testicles to start producing test on it's own since you've been on cycle where you've been receiving test from an outside source. LH stimulates your balls to make test so you load HCG in PCT to start the process instead of stopping it before PCT.

I'm always open to hear others reasoning behind what they do, so if you disagree with me, let's hear why.

How can HCG "shut you down" when you're already shutdown from the use of exogenous testosterone?

Where is the evidence "HCG loses its potency during a 10-12 week cycle"? HRT is a different story and it one of the reasons I dont advocate HCG is used for LONGER than 10-12 weeks without a break of some sort.

LH will begin to 1-2 weeks after TE injection and be hypogondal levels in 3 or so weeks. It could be argued that you can use HCG for weeks 3 onwards, but considering the price of HCG, its availability, I run it from day 1. But, yes, it can be introduced from week 2-3, which is what I suggest in many of my protocols (threads, PMs, posts) here.

Your endogenous testosterone will not begin to rise until almost all of the exogenous testosterone (Test Cyp) has cleared the system, as LH will not rise until negative feedback has fallen below the threshold of inhibition. This is different in individuals. You also dont take into account doses also impact this time of ester clearence leading to PCT. 750mg/wk will take longer to exist the system and affect the HPTA than 250mg/wk TE will.

I suggest the steroid user to ramp their HCG dose for the final 4-5 shots (double the dose). That way, even if the testes did begin to lose their responsivness to HCG, they're getting a shock with double the dose. This works very well in my experience leading to PCT. You should read my protocol more thoroughly.

If you look at what we want HCG to do then logically you can dose it on what it actually does. Taking it from the start of a cycle, is pointless if you are using CYP/Enanthate. Prop is a different story, because it's fast acting.

Either compound kicks in around the 3rd week. So at the beginning of week 4 you start your HCG. It WILL lose it's potency in your body if you continue it from week 4-12, that's 8 weeks on. Instead you would cycle it throughout:

3 weeks off
3 week on @ 500iu 2x/week
2 weeks off
2 weeks on @ 500iu 2x/week
2 weeks off

That would bring you to week 12. You start PCT on week 14. At this time you load on HCG to shock your testicles into producing TEST on it's own since your test levels are dropping being that you have been without CYP/Enan for 2 weeks.

Week 1 1000iu 2x
Week 2 500iu 2x
Week 3 250iu 2x

That protocol may work for 10-12 weeks, but we know that larger INITIAL doses of HCG are needed when the testes have layed dormant. That means more HCG would be needed in the long term if the cycle is longer than you have suggested. Think about it.

[xerxes333]

Hey austinite who is the girl in your profile pic?