Didn't recover. Need HELP plz

**Lil man** · 09-12-2012, 03:09 PM

I finished pct about 3-4 weeks ago. I had bloodwork done yesterday and my results have me worried. My cycle was test c 500/wk for 11 weeks. I finished with a 5 week clomid nolva combo. 100/100/50/50/50 + 40/40/20/20/20. I want to recover before starting again so what do you guys think. I have nolva clomid and hcg on hand.

**MickeyKnox** · 09-12-2012, 03:29 PM

im no pro at this still learning myself but it appears as though you are still shut down? low test, low lh, low fsh? actually not shut down, but not producing like you should.

**hyphy_beast** · 09-12-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Lil man

I finished pct about 3-4 weeks ago. I had bloodwork done yesterday and my results have me worried. My cycle was test c 500/wk for 11 weeks. I finished with a 5 week clomid nolva combo. 100/100/50/50/50 + 40/40/20/20/20. I want to recover before starting again so what do you guys think. I have nolva clomid and hcg on hand.

Was this your first cycle? Stats?

BG · 09-12-2012, 04:03 PM

What were your levels before you cycled? It takes time to recover, all these guys here think a couple months after pct your back to normal again but I bet none of them have blood work done. I would run hcg again. Its takes a long time for your natural production to fulling restart, give it time. My friend is going through the same thing right now. How is your sex drive ? Also did you have any sides from the 100mgs of clomid? Thats a nasty dosage, if you didnt I would worry your pct wasnt up to par.

**bp2000** · 09-12-2012, 04:33 PM

1st rule of STeriods is to not let your balls get shutdown. It's called HCG ! 250iu x2 on cycle and 1250iu E4D while test is clearning. THEN start your serm's. Tough lesson to learn.....

Clomid at 100mg could fvuck up your eyes too! I don't use over 25mg as studies has been shown to be sufficient. Remember clomid is used to restart your pituitary. That part is easy. Hard part is restarting your testicles.

If you didn't use HCG aznd use clomid it's like trying to jump a car with a battery that isn't working. It's going to take a while!!!

**Lil man** · 09-12-2012, 04:50 PM

I didn't have bloodwork done pre cycle. I know. Anyway. And the pct I used is pretty standard isn't it. Everyone here seems to use the same protocol or very similar. I didn't have access to hcg when I started cycle. I have a place to actually get shit now. Too late probably. Should I hit that hcg and go through another pct? My sex drive is shit. Never want sex right now. And I agree that a large majority thinks that you should be recovered by this time. Just a little depressed over it to be honest

**hyphy_beast** · 09-12-2012, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by bp2000

1st rule of STeriods is to not let your balls get shutdown. It's called HCG ! 250iu x2 on cycle and 1250iu E4D while test is clearning. THEN start your serm's. Tough lesson to learn.....

Clomid at 100mg could fvuck up your eyes too! I don't use over 25mg as studies has been shown to be sufficient. Remember clomid is used to restart your pituitary. That part is easy. Hard part is restarting your testicles.

If you didn't use HCG aznd use clomid it's like trying to jump a car with a battery that isn't working. It's going to take a while!!!

Nolva is necessary as well, correct?

**Lil man** · 09-12-2012, 06:48 PM

Ok I was just told that it looks like my natty test has just started based on the lh and fsh levels. I was told to wait about another 4 weeks and check again. Anyone have a differing opinion or suggestion?

AD · 09-12-2012, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lil man

Ok I was just told that it looks like my natty test has just started based on the lh and fsh levels. I was told to wait about another 4 weeks and check again. Anyone have a differing opinion or suggestion?

usually after a successful pct, LH and FSH recover much more quickly than test. in your case, everything is low. this means that your pituitary hasn't woken up to start sending signals to your testis to wake them up. starting hcg now may be counter-productive cos it may further suppress your natty LH.

i'm no expert, but i think you can try another round of pct for another 4wks at standard doses to try to wake your pit up. good luck.

**Lil man** · 09-12-2012, 07:46 PM

Ok now my question is would clomid at 25-50 mg a week for 4 weeks be sufficient maybe?

**Lil man** · 09-12-2012, 07:47 PM

Actually I meant 25-50 mg of clomid for 2 weeks. Would that be enough?

AD · 09-12-2012, 07:47 PM

i dont think so. i like nolva 40/40/20/20, clomid 100/50/50/50

**Lil man** · 09-12-2012, 07:57 PM

Thank you asiandude. My creatinine levels were high as well. No one has commented and I guess I didn't ask but could that be from the pct perhaps? Should I be concer Ed or just wait until I do more bloods to see if it corrects?

AD · 09-12-2012, 08:01 PM

your creatinine is normal, its your BUN and BUN/Cr ratio thats high. but i think that may be due to your high protein diet while on cycle. keep an eye on it and repeat these tests in your next bloodwork. nothing needs to be done now.

**Metalject** · 09-12-2012, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by BG

What were your levels before you cycled? It takes time to recover, all these guys here think a couple months after pct your back to normal again but I bet none of them have blood work done. I would run hcg again. Its takes a long time for your natural production to fulling restart, give it time. My friend is going through the same thing right now. How is your sex drive ? Also did you have any sides from the 100mgs of clomid? Thats a nasty dosage, if you didnt I would worry your pct wasnt up to par.

The above is the best response in this thread and the only one that matters. There is no PCT plan on earth that will make you fully recover...zero, none...does not exist. The idea behind a successful PCT plan is to stimulate production so that your body has enough testosterone to meet its basic needs while your levels continue to climb naturally once the PCT is over. Although it will be a slow climb up, this is success. Ultimate success, however, doesn't worry about testosterone only, but rather promoting a total normalization of the body. This is why I do not like AI's for the purpose of PCT.

**Lil man** · 09-13-2012, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Metalject

The above is the best response in this thread and the only one that matters. There is no PCT plan on earth that will make you fully recover...zero, none...does not exist. The idea behind a successful PCT plan is to stimulate production so that your body has enough testosterone to meet its basic needs while your levels continue to climb naturally once the PCT is over. Although it will be a slow climb up, this is success. Ultimate success, however, doesn't worry about testosterone only, but rather promoting a total normalization of the body. This is why I do not like AI's for the purpose of PCT.

So you think that I'm on the right track to stability and I should give it some time. Say 4 weeks then have blood work?

AD · 09-13-2012, 05:51 AM

My first cycle was testC 400mg/wk x 12wks. Hcg all the way and 4wk pct with nolva and clomid. Got impatient and did bloodwork during the 4th wk of pct. My test was already in the normal range by then. Novice cycles shouldn't be so difficult to recover from.

You can wait. Or you can try another round of pct to see if you can wake you hpta up.

Btw, where did you get your pct gear from?

**Lil man** · 09-13-2012, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by asiandude

My first cycle was testC 400mg/wk x 12wks. Hcg all the way and 4wk pct with nolva and clomid. Got impatient and did bloodwork during the 4th wk of pct. My test was already in the normal range by then. Novice cycles shouldn't be so difficult to recover from.

You can wait. Or you can try another round of pct to see if you can wake you hpta up.

Btw, where did you get your pct gear from?

AR-R . I hate to say but I ordered some clem for a buddy and he had no results or sides from it so I questioned the product but I knew the cialis worked that I ordered. Now the clomid and nolva I took never gave me the sides either that people talked about they got and my test is still low. Not making accusations but kind of makes me wonder.

AD · 09-13-2012, 08:17 AM

if you can get another source, no harm trying.

**Metalject** · 09-14-2012, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lil man

So you think that I'm on the right track to stability and I should give it some time. Say 4 weeks then have blood work?

Keep in mind you had your blood work done just a few wks after ending PCT. This isn't going to be a representation of a true reading IMO. I'd give it at least 4 more wks, maybe even a couple of months, see where you're at and go from there.

**Lil man** · 09-14-2012, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Metalject

Keep in mind you had your blood work done just a few wks after ending PCT. This isn't going to be a representation of a true reading IMO. I'd give it at least 4 more wks, maybe even a couple of months, see where you're at and go from there.

Thanks bro. Means a lot to have some help and encouragement!

**Bonaparte** · 09-14-2012, 11:22 AM

Looks like your pct drugs were fake and you're just now starting to recover naturally. I'd get more SERMs from elsewhere and try that again asap.

**DanB** · 09-14-2012, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Looks like your pct drugs were fake and you're just now starting to recover naturally. I'd get more SERMs from elsewhere and try that again asap.

My thought aswell

OP I assume they were research chems or random tabs off a domestic source yeah?

Look into online pharmacys

**Lil man** · 09-14-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

My thought aswell

OP I assume they were research chems or random tabs off a domestic source yeah?

Look into online pharmacys

They were from AR-R and everyone talks about how legit they are. Danb how would I know what pharmacy would be legit an wouldn't they be from overseas and be just as questionable? I have some more serms from another source and I'll give it another go

**Lil man** · 09-14-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Looks like your pct drugs were fake and you're just now starting to recover naturally. I'd get more SERMs from elsewhere and try that again asap.

.

I know the purpose of using serms but are you suggesting that if a person is capable of recovering that he can recover naturally at a slower pace? And also that he will recover as much as I he were using ?

**DanB** · 09-14-2012, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Lil man

They were from AR-R and everyone talks about how legit they are. Danb how would I know what pharmacy would be legit an wouldn't they be from overseas and be just as questionable? I have some more serms from another source and I'll give it another go

Pm sent

**hyphy_beast** · 09-14-2012, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lil man

They were from AR-R and everyone talks about how legit they are. Danb how would I know what pharmacy would be legit an wouldn't they be from overseas and be just as questionable? I have some more serms from another source and I'll give it another go

This is what I'm worried about. Now I know exactly why ppl say to have pct on hand before you start your cycle.

**MuscleInk** · 09-14-2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by hyphy_beast

This is what I'm worried about. Now I know exactly why ppl say to have pct on hand before you start your cycle.

Yes......and there are just as many guys arguing with us saying "my buddy said I didn't need a PCT as long as I don't abuse steroids ." lol

**Lil man** · 09-14-2012, 02:49 PM

I take it a step further. Have pct for a backup in case your shit is bunk if you have never used the company. Damnit I'm aggravated

**gearbox** · 09-14-2012, 03:25 PM

Give it some more time before you have blood work again. and definitely run hcg when on cycle. I would only freak out if this was months after pct

AD · 09-14-2012, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Lil man

.

I know the purpose of using serms but are you suggesting that if a person is capable of recovering that he can recover naturally at a slower pace? And also that he will recover as much as I he were using ?

If someone doesnt do pct, or did pct with bunk drugs, the body will not get any signals to kick start the htpa. Left on its own, the body might recover naturally. But how long it takes, and to what extend you recover, are unknown. It could takes many months. While you wait and suffer low test and lose all your gains...

If you have pct from a different source on hand, no harm having another go.

**jimmyinkedup** · 09-14-2012, 06:40 PM

There have been 3 or 4 posts in this thread that pretty much laid out for you that pct is no magic solution. It takes quite a while for things to return to normal. If your going to do bloodwork you should wait around 2 months post pct. I know its easier to believe that maybe your pct chems were bad and thats why you are choosing only to listen to those posts, but the fact is it takes months to return to normal. In fact there is no guarantee you even will return to normal. Thats part of the deal man. Having said that you proably will recover significantly , but it takes time. If you could fully recover immediately post pct - then people wouldnt say time off = time on +pct. Thats given as advice because thats how long it takes . You should have researched this before your cycle and gotten this advice pre cycle - then again maybe it wouldnt have mattered cause u r getting it now and ignoring it and pointing the finger at your pct instead.

**Lil man** · 09-14-2012, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

There have been 3 or 4 posts in this thread that pretty much laid out for you that pct is no magic solution. It takes quite a while for things to return to normal. If your going to do bloodwork you should wait around 2 months post pct. I know its easier to believe that maybe your pct chems were bad and thats why you are choosing only to listen to those posts, but the fact is it takes months to return to normal. In fact there is no guarantee you even will return to normal. Thats part of the deal man. Having said that you proably will recover significantly , but it takes time. If you could fully recover immediately post pct - then people wouldnt say time off = time on +pct. Thats given as advice because thats how long it takes . You should have researched this before your cycle and gotten this advice pre cycle - then again maybe it wouldnt have mattered cause u r getting it now and ignoring it and pointing the finger at your pct instead.

There always has to be one guy that assumes that the op didn't research and so on. Sure took a while before you posted! Anyway. With that said I researched plenty but found no one up til now that suggest teat levels should be at this point in pct. I have also read here that many people recover faster than others and therefore there is no set in stone time off period but a standard that can be adjusted as needed. I appreciate your feedback but I'm sure for the most part you didn't go to a school to study this and experience probably taught you for the most part as it will teach me also. I take all suggestions in consideration but it's my experience that a lot of people have higher test levels per blood work in over two months off cycle.

**Lil man** · 09-14-2012, 07:19 PM

Oh an I sort of knew I would face scrutiny for talking against a sponsor. Probably not the first time that's happened either. But have you heard of many people that clen didn't have any effect on? Even at 140 mcg? Guess what? Your sponsor sold some.

AD · 09-14-2012, 07:31 PM

for someone whose recovery is delayed due to not using hcg , they will have low test and high or normal LH, FSH. in your case, everything is low. so it probably is not because you didnt use hcg. for some reason, your hypothalamus and pituitary are not getting the wake-up signal from your pct.

either they can't recognize the pct signals and can't respond due to damage, or the pct signal wasn't strong enough.

**jimmyinkedup** · 09-14-2012, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lil man

Oh an I sort of knew I would face scrutiny for talking against a sponsor. Probably not the first time that's happened either. But have you heard of many people that clen didn't have any effect on? Even at 140 mcg? Guess what? Your sponsor sold some.

Why the chip on your shoulder? It has nothing to do with where you got what..thats my point. It has to do with the fact that if you are going to get post cycle bloodwork and properly assess your recovery - you should do so about 2 months post pct. As I explained to you thats why common advice dictates time off=time on + pct. Because it takes that long. You seem hell bent and hung up on the wheres and its bad and blah blah blah ..the fact is it simply doesnt work the way you are expecting it too. the only thing Im wondering is why you keep hearing what im saying (this would be what the 4tyh time) from experienced people , there is a standard rule of thumb that backs it, yet you refuse to accept or believe it.

AD · 09-14-2012, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Why the chip on your shoulder? It has nothing to do with where you got what..thats my point. It has to do with the fact that if you are going to get post cycle bloodwork and properly assess your recovery - you should do so about 2 months post pct. As I explained to you thats why common advice dictates time off=time on + pct. Because it takes that long. You seem hell bent and hung up on the wheres and its bad and blah blah blah ..the fact is it simply doesnt work the way you are expecting it too. the only thing Im wondering is why you keep hearing what im saying (this would be what the 4tyh time) from experienced people , there is a standard rule of thumb that backs it, yet you refuse to accept or believe it.

hi Jimmy, don't mind if i have a question... a few actually.

in your opinion, if a pct is successful, when do you think the FSH and LH will rise in response to the removal of negative feedback exerted by circulating estro? i know everyone is different, but what do you think is the fastest and slowest?

how long after pct, if test, LH, FSH remain low, will you start to assume that the pct did not work?

when, if ever, will you consider someone should try a second pct?

all questions assuming the subject has just run a novice test-only cycle of about 500mg/wk x 12wks.

thanks for your time

**jimmyinkedup** · 09-14-2012, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by asiandude

hi Jimmy, don't mind if i have a question... a few actually.

in your opinion, if a pct is successful, when do you think the FSH and LH will rise in response to the removal of negative feedback exerted by circulating estro? i know everyone is different, but what do you think is the fastest and slowest? The goal of using serms is to start that precess asap as you know. In fact with little to no estrogen present it would slowly start on its own but serms speed it up. I dont know the textbook answer to you question but for me i used to feel pretty lousy through my pct and a few weeks after it ended - but as you said everyone is different

how long after pct, if test, LH, FSH remain low, will you start to assume that the pct did not work? 8 weeks maybe even 12 at most

when, if ever, will you consider someone should try a second pct? After 10 weeks or so if my bloodwork came back like the above I would do a restart. Id use hcg and a low dose ai ..id cease hcg and ai usage and run a full pct. Clomid is proven effective but Scally has gone to the type of restart program im describing. Also of note the studies using clomid only to restart following steroid induced andropause (shutdown) administer the drug for what 4 months (Guay et al)!!!

all questions assuming the subject has just run a novice test-only cycle of about 500mg/wk x 12wks.

thanks for your time

See bold.
I know it sucks but this is the risk you undertake when you cycle. It happens. Perhaps we dont emphasize this risjk enough. Everyone is diff ...what crushes you may do nothing for me. I know for myself before I started recently cruising my post pct stabilized test levels ...about 8-10 weeks post pct btw were in the high 600's in my early 40's. Certainly an atypical result. Also you need to make sure to eat and get adequate rest and train properly during your pct and post pct when off. Those factors are huge.. (you prob know this but others may not - which is why im sharing it).
At any rate thats pretty much my take.

**Bonaparte** · 09-14-2012, 11:53 PM

From all the bloodwork I have ever seen with SERMs; LH, FSH, and test spike rapidly (TT usually above 1,000ng/dl) and remain there until the SERMs wash out after several weeks. Then test drops to maybe a bit lower than normal (for illustration purposes, lets say 500ng/dl), and then will fluctuate and normalize over the next few months (lets say 700ng/dl). If you have the test levels of an 8 year old girl after PCT, your SERMs did not work. This isn't a question of being patient, as that is exactly what not doing a PCT would accomplish. The reason we tell guys to wait 2 months until after PCT before getting bloodwork is so that they do not see the inflated reading from the SERM and think "HOLY SHIT, MY TEST LEVELS ARE TWICE WHAT THEY WERE BEFORE!", not because they will have no test levels yet.

**jimmyinkedup** · 09-15-2012, 12:11 AM

For someone as science based as you Bonaparte thats quite the speculative leap to make. Hell we dont even know his pre cycle test levels for Christ sake....
Im surprised you would definitively say that given all the unknowns and variables and interdependent response to steroids and hpta restoration of function , very surprised. Seems almost odd for you.