Clen headaches

**scottroxx** · 09-13-2012, 05:55 PM

I just started clen , 25mg in morning and 15mg around 2pm. By the late afternoon, I can feel a headache coming on and by 5 or so my head is pounding?? Anyone else having this happen to them? I really can't afford to stop taking it so been popping Tylenol like candy the last few days....ughhh. Anything I can do besides stop taking it???

**Lemonada8** · 09-13-2012, 08:15 PM

lower the dose, it sounds like the vasodilator properties are really pronounced with you.

**capetown** · 09-13-2012, 08:22 PM

Drink water like crazy. Those dull headaches can get bad!!

**t-dogg** · 09-13-2012, 08:28 PM

Increase water and take tourine and pass.

**GreMos** · 09-13-2012, 08:29 PM

Water and taurine. Clen eats up the bodies natural taurine which in fact actually negatively affects your metabolism. So keep the water and taurine up and you'll get the full on effect of the Clen!

**that guy1234** · 09-13-2012, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by GreMos

Water and taurine. Clen eats up the bodies natural taurine which in fact actually negatively affects your metabolism. So keep the water and taurine up and you'll get the full on effect of the Clen!

This. I get them every time.

**Bonaparte** · 09-14-2012, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

lower the dose, it sounds like the vasodilator properties are really pronounced with you.

What makes you think it isn't from hypertension due to the B1-adrenergic stimulation?
I pointed this out in another thread and you never replied. Clen is a much more potent stimulant and bronchiodilator than a vasodilator (the vasodilation isn't very pronounced at all).

OP, check your blood pressure.

**auswest** · 09-14-2012, 04:59 AM

Experiencing the same problems bad headaches and lethargic as fk, first time using it currently tapering up day 5 tomorrow and will be at full dose, am supplementing taurine now. Keep us updated on how you go these headaches are awful

**Lemonada8** · 09-14-2012, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

What makes you think it isn't from hypertension due to the B1-adrenergic stimulation?
I pointed this out in another thread and you never replied. Clen is a much more potent stimulant and bronchiodilator than a vasodilator (the vasodilation isn't very pronounced at all).

OP, check your blood pressure.

"The selectivity of b-adrenoceptor agonists at human b1-, b2- and b3-adrenoceptors"

This paper shows the receptor affinities of beta agonists. in the chart at the bottom, it show affinity and efficacy. Clen is by far on the beta 2 selective, and beta 2 efficacy side compared to beta 1.

the increase in HR is due to the vasodilation decreasing the preload and afterload, not directly due to the clenbuterol .

AD · 09-14-2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

"The selectivity of b-adrenoceptor agonists at human b1-, b2- and b3-adrenoceptors"

This paper shows the receptor affinities of beta agonists. in the chart at the bottom, it show affinity and efficacy. Clen is by far on the beta 2 selective, and beta 2 efficacy side compared to beta 1.

the increase in HR is due to the vasodilation decreasing the preload and afterload, not directly due to the clenbuterol.

How does changes in preload and afterload affect heart rate directly?

AD · 09-14-2012, 08:07 AM

Beta2 agonist will itself directly increase heart rate and contractility. Although less than than beta1, its not zero

**evander87** · 09-14-2012, 11:44 AM

Taurine at 3 grams a day and lots of water.

My first time running clen I took 500mg in the am and another 500 in the pm and had nasty headaches and cramps. Johnny Vegas said run the Taurine at 3 grams a day. I thought it was excessive but tried it anyway. POOF headaches and cramps be gone. Might be something to look into as long as you're drinking enough water. Off clen I'm drinking a gallon + on clen it's close to 2 gallons a day. YAY for clear pee every half hour. lol

**scottroxx** · 09-14-2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

What makes you think it isn't from hypertension due to the B1-adrenergic stimulation?
I pointed this out in another thread and you never replied. Clen is a much more potent stimulant and bronchiodilator than a vasodilator (the vasodilation isn't very pronounced at all).

OP, check your blood pressure.

I was wondering if my blood pressure was sky rocketing but I feel absolutely fine all morning and then around 2pm ish, the headache starts mild and just progressively gets worse and I mean f'n worse!!!

**scottroxx** · 09-14-2012, 04:06 PM

I drink atleast a gallon of water a day but I do not take taurine. I take a pre workout drink and it has taurine in it but does not say how much??? I will try the taurine on its own and drink as much as I possibly can of water. How much taurine would be acceptable.... I'm 45. 5' 9" 207lbs 9.4 b/f ..6 weeks out from my show!! Thanx for the great responses guyz.

**Bonaparte** · 09-14-2012, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by scottroxx

I was wondering if my blood pressure was sky rocketing but I feel absolutely fine all morning and then around 2pm ish, the headache starts mild and just progressively gets worse and I mean f'n worse!!!

None of that contradicts hypertension. Just check your BP now.

**t-dogg** · 09-14-2012, 05:52 PM

You need to be drinking way more then a gallon of water a day on Clen .

**Lemonada8** · 09-14-2012, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by asiandude

How does changes in preload and afterload affect heart rate directly?

the vasodilation decreases the afterload by increasing the diamater of the vessel. This is seen as a decrease in stretch via the baroreceptors in the aortic arch and carotid, and a reflex tachycardia ensues. By decreasing the preload, more blood is kept in the venous side of the body, but since its being used with exercise ( to lose weight) this blood flow is returned back to the heart which actually helps increase stroke volume because of the increased return (because of the physical activity) along with the increase in basal HR, this helps the weight loss benefits. However it does put additional strain on the heart because of the increase in myocardial O2 demand.

So it doesnt directly affect HR, but does cause a reflex increase in HR.

AD · 09-14-2012, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

the vasodilation decreases the afterload by increasing the diamater of the vessel. This is seen as a decrease in stretch via the baroreceptors in the aortic arch and carotid, and a reflex tachycardia ensues. By decreasing the preload, more blood is kept in the venous side of the body, but since its being used with exercise ( to lose weight) this blood flow is returned back to the heart which actually helps increase stroke volume because of the increased return (because of the physical activity) along with the increase in basal HR, this helps the weight loss benefits. However it does put additional strain on the heart because of the increase in myocardial O2 demand.

So it doesnt directly affect HR, but does cause a reflex increase in HR.

does the vasodilation effect of clen affect all blood vessels in the body or is it selective to certain arteries or arterioles only?

does this vasodilation and subsequent decrease stimulation of the baroreceptors in the carotid sinus result in a drop in blood pressure? does clen increase or decrease blood pressure?

how does decreased preload increase stroke volume? is it the "exercise" or is it the clen that is increasing the venous return?

**Lemonada8** · 09-15-2012, 12:43 PM

does the vasodilation effect of clen affect all blood vessels in the body or is it selective to certain arteries or arterioles only? does this vasodilation and subsequent decrease stimulation of the baroreceptors in the carotid sinus result in a drop in blood pressure? does clen increase or decrease blood pressure?

the vasodilation is mainly done at the arteriole level, thats where the main place of resistance is located in the body in regards to blood flow. if you dialate those, the resistance drops by the increase in diamater and the increase in number of open arterioles. ( increase in the series and parallel circuits). this is the drop in afterload ( aka pressure required to push blood through the body), and this drop lowers pressure. but since it is done with a drug (not the body) the body doesnt account for this and senses less outward pressure stretching the baroreceptors, the body senses this as a drop in perfusion and the increase in HR ensues.
However with this drop in afterload and the increase in HR will increase the O2 demand of the heart, which can lead to some issues.
Diastolyic bp should drop with the use of clen , but the mechanisms of control employed by the body will cause an increase in systolic BP.
Thats why hydration is so important while on clen, diastolic is basically 'volume", and if you are well hydrated, you can minimize the 'change' seen by the body in volume which will help keep the BP stable.

how does decreased preload increase stroke volume? is it the "exercise" or is it the clen that is increasing the venous return?

clen decreases preload via dilation, which the blood is in the venous side of the system more. So during rest, and non exertion yes preload is decreased. but exercise is what increases the venous return. the veins return blood via contraction of muscles and the tightness if fascia. ( thats why the calf is the heart of ur legs), exercise increases the outside pressure on the vein, helping it return back to the heart in a higher amount = higher preload. that along with the increased HR is what accounts for the dramatic increase in CO during exercise. ( typically @ rest, CO is 5L/Min. Exercise CO is 20L/Min)
but with this increased CO there is an increase in SV, which overtime will dialate the ventricle which increases the blood in the systolic circuit, which gives an increase in Systolic BP which may stay even after clen usage.

**scottroxx** · 09-15-2012, 02:54 PM

I will start drinking more water...ughhh. I have a he'll of a time putting back a gallon but I will try and also add taurine but still haven't heard from anyone what an acceptable amount is?? This is really turning into a very informative post on the subject of clen !!! \m/. \m/

AD · 09-15-2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

the vasodilation is mainly done at the arteriole level, thats where the main place of resistance is located in the body in regards to blood flow. if you dialate those, the resistance drops by the increase in diamater and the increase in number of open arterioles. ( increase in the series and parallel circuits). this is the drop in afterload ( aka pressure required to push blood through the body), and this drop lowers pressure. but since it is done with a drug (not the body) the body doesnt account for this and senses less outward pressure stretching the baroreceptors, the body senses this as a drop in perfusion and the increase in HR ensues.
However with this drop in afterload and the increase in HR will increase the O2 demand of the heart, which can lead to some issues.
Diastolyic bp should drop with the use of clen , but the mechanisms of control employed by the body will cause an increase in systolic BP.
Thats why hydration is so important while on clen, diastolic is basically 'volume", and if you are well hydrated, you can minimize the 'change' seen by the body in volume which will help keep the BP stable.

clen decreases preload via dilation, which the blood is in the venous side of the system more. So during rest, and non exertion yes preload is decreased. but exercise is what increases the venous return. the veins return blood via contraction of muscles and the tightness if fascia. ( thats why the calf is the heart of ur legs), exercise increases the outside pressure on the vein, helping it return back to the heart in a higher amount = higher preload. that along with the increased HR is what accounts for the dramatic increase in CO during exercise. ( typically @ rest, CO is 5L/Min. Exercise CO is 20L/Min)
but with this increased CO there is an increase in SV, which overtime will dialate the ventricle which increases the blood in the systolic circuit, which gives an increase in Systolic BP which may stay even after clen usage.

the vasodilation effect of beta-2 agonist does not apply to all arterioles. it only dilates vessels to heart, skeletal muscles, and liver, systems needed in the fight-or-flight response. there is no vasodilation to other non-essential systems like the messenteric vessels. as such, i doubt if the carotid sinus even comes into play. beta-2 has direct effect to stimulate and increase heart rate and contractility to increase cardiac output, although lower than beta-1.

AD · 09-15-2012, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

clen decreases preload via dilation, which the blood is in the venous side of the system more. So during rest, and non exertion yes preload is decreased. but exercise is what increases the venous return. the veins return blood via contraction of muscles and the tightness if fascia. ( thats why the calf is the heart of ur legs), exercise increases the outside pressure on the vein, helping it return back to the heart in a higher amount = higher preload. that along with the increased HR is what accounts for the dramatic increase in CO during exercise. ( typically @ rest, CO is 5L/Min. Exercise CO is 20L/Min)
but with this increased CO there is an increase in SV, which overtime will dialate the ventricle which increases the blood in the systolic circuit, which gives an increase in Systolic BP which may stay even after clen usage.

sounds like most of what you said above is due to effects of exercise, not effects of clen.

**Ashop** · 09-15-2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by scottroxx

I just started clen, 25mg in morning and 15mg around 2pm. By the late afternoon, I can feel a headache coming on and by 5 or so my head is pounding?? Anyone else having this happen to them? I really can't afford to stop taking it so been popping Tylenol like candy the last few days....ughhh. Anything I can do besides stop taking it???

I hope you mean MCG'S and not MG'S..lower your dose,,see if that helps.

AD · 09-15-2012, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

"The selectivity of b-adrenoceptor agonists at human b1-, b2- and b3-adrenoceptors"

This paper shows the receptor affinities of beta agonists. in the chart at the bottom, it show affinity and efficacy. Clen is by far on the beta 2 selective, and beta 2 efficacy side compared to beta 1.

the increase in HR is due to the vasodilation decreasing the preload and afterload, not directly due to the clenbuterol.

J Am Coll Cardiol. 1994 Apr;23(5):1224-33.
Positive inotropic effects of the beta 2-adrenoceptor agonist terbutaline in the human heart: effects of long-term beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist treatment.
Schäfers RF, Adler S, Daul A, Zeitler G, Vogelsang M, Zerkowski HR, Brodde OE.
Source

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Essen, Germany.
Abstract

OBJECTIVES:

This study was conducted to determine whether activation of cardiac beta 2-adrenoceptors increases contractility in humans and whether this is affected by long-term beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist treatment.

BACKGROUND:

Coexistence of beta 1- and beta 2-adrenoceptors in the human heart is generally accepted. The functional importance of cardiac beta 2-adrenoceptors for increases in contractility in humans, however, has not been completely established.

METHODS:

We studied 1) the beta-adrenoceptor subtype mediating positive inotropic effects of the beta 2-adrenoceptor agonist terbutaline in vitro (on right atrial and left ventricular preparations from nonfailing human hearts) and increases in contractility (by measurement of systolic time intervals) in vivo in seven healthy male volunteers; and 2) in vivo whether long-term treatment of volunteers with the beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist bisoprolol affects terbutaline-induced increases in contractility.

RESULTS:

In vitro terbutaline caused a concentration-dependent increase in atrial and ventricular adenylate cyclase activity and force of contraction. Terbutaline effects were antagonized only by the beta 2-adrenoceptor antagonist ICI 118,551, indicating that they were mediated by beta 2-adrenoceptor stimulation. In vivo intravenous infusions of terbutaline (dose range 25 to 300 ng/kg body weight per min for 15 min) dose dependently increased heart rate and shortened the pre-ejection period and heart rate-corrected electromechanical systole (QS2) time. These effects are mediated predominantly by beta 2-adrenoceptor stimulation because they were only marginally affected by the beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist bisoprolol (1 x 10 mg orally), either given 2 h before infusion or long term for 3 weeks.

CONCLUSIONS:

Stimulation of cardiac beta 2-adrenoceptors in humans causes not only in vitro but also in vivo positive inotropic effects. Long-term beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist treatment does not considerably affect beta 2-adrenoceptor-mediated in vivo increases in contractility. Thus, it may be possible to treat patients with chronic heart failure and long-term beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist therapy with beta 2-adrenoceptor agonists if immediate inotropic support is needed.

**robbinthehood** · 09-15-2012, 11:57 PM

Id say add more water and about 5g of taurine as well as some potassium. Are you having muscle cramps as well?

**lstbred** · 09-16-2012, 12:20 AM

You can pick up taurine cheap, 50 caps for $9.99, at WalMart. Get them online, I got 2 bottles today and it was like $22 with shipping. I didnt do it at first and the cramps were horrible so I got these and everything went away.

**Bonaparte** · 09-16-2012, 12:41 AM

OP, why have you not checked your BP yet? BP isn't something you can usually feel or guess at. Just go to walmart and buy a an automated BP machine with a large cuff.

Most pharmacies also have a free machine you can use, but judging from your pic, that cuff (designed for 9-13" arms) will be too small.

**scottroxx** · 09-16-2012, 11:46 AM

Yes I do get cramps... Not really bad but they are there from time to time and when I do abs I can only one maybe two sets and they cramp up so bad I almost panic,, takes two or three minutes of being really calm and relaxed to get them to release.. Now that is f'n scary shit.. And as for arm size, I have 20" arms and 18" forearms...lol, I can't get my forearm into that machine at the pharmacy...lol my wife has one as well but it is way too small too..ughhh I just got some taurine and I am already uping my water intake... I wil post in a week and let you know how I am doing...

**Bonaparte** · 09-16-2012, 02:34 PM

Just buy a large cuff for your wife's machine. Or you can just keep abusing your body and hope you don't suffer a stroke. Your call.

**scottroxx** · 09-17-2012, 05:44 PM

I will go to the pharmacy before I hit the gym and see if there is a cuff available.. I take all intelligent posts to heart and actually will do my best to follow threw. Any good advise doesn't Not fall on deaf ears brothers.... Thanx again!! I will be in touch as soon as I have Sumthin relevant to post... \ m /. \ m /

**scottroxx** · 09-21-2012, 10:59 AM

Okay... It's been 3 days since uping my water intake to 1.5 gallons a day ( give or take a bit!! ) and using 5g of taurine. The results......I have not had a headache in these past 3 days. I had a bit of a headache when I bought the taurine and took it shortly after.... The headache was basically gone within an hour!!! I have not had a chance to do the blood pressure as of yet. I am having a hard time getting a cuff for my wife's machine. As soon as I get my pressure done, I will post. Thanx for the great detailed replies and advise... You all rock.. These headaches were f'n insane!!!

AD · 09-21-2012, 07:26 PM

good to know you're better, mate. stay healthy. and check that pressure!

**Henryhill470** · 09-22-2012, 05:50 AM

Good to know buddy !

**Lemonada8** · 09-22-2012, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by asiandude

J Am Coll Cardiol. 1994 Apr;23(5):1224-33.
[SIZE=3]
CONCLUSIONS:

Stimulation of cardiac beta 2-adrenoceptors in humans causes not only in vitro but also in vivo positive inotropic effects. Long-term beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist treatment does not considerably affect beta 2-adrenoceptor-mediated in vivo increases in contractility. Thus, it may be possible to treat patients with chronic heart failure and long-term beta 1-adrenoceptor antagonist therapy with beta 2-adrenoceptor agonists if immediate inotropic support is needed.

ionotropic means strength of contractility, not increased HR. Thats chronotropic.

Beta2 do not increase HR directly. Some beta 2 agents can hit the Beta 1 receptor which will increase HR, but that has to do with the effficacy and affinity of the drug towards the beta 1 receptor.

AD · 09-22-2012, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

ionotropic means strength of contractility, not increased HR. Thats chronotropic.

Beta2 do not increase HR directly. Some beta 2 agents can hit the Beta 1 receptor which will increase HR, but that has to do with the effficacy and affinity of the drug towards the beta 1 receptor.

This is really getting old.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3010692/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22823/

Or you can just read wiki: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-...ergic_receptor

**Lemonada8** · 09-22-2012, 11:07 AM

^^ that said nothing on how there are beta 2 receptors in the heart that increase HR.

W/e, its a minor point; and if there are beta 2 receptors that increase HR directly ( and not a part of a reflex) then that is a major break thru in the field.

AD · 09-22-2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

^^ that said nothing on how there are beta 2 receptors in the heart that increase HR.

W/e, its a minor point; and if there are beta 2 receptors that increase HR directly ( and not a part of a reflex) then that is a major break thru in the field.

Why dont you start with the wiki page first. Its basic physio. No break thru here.

**Lemonada8** · 09-22-2012, 12:56 PM

Don't give some wiki page to back that up, ESP when u know I'm pretty damn good in physio.
Whatever tho, in done with this debate. Agree to disagree

**Bonaparte** · 09-22-2012, 05:47 PM

Lemonada8: The original argument on the subject of Clen between you and I was whether Clen raises or lowers blood pressure. Correct? Then you changed your stance to some long-winded theory that I can't even summarize in this sentence.

There is an easy way to resolve this without jerking off to pubmed and extrapolating data: If you're so certain, try taking a good dose of Clen before and after checking your BP and heart rate. If your blood pressure drops, I'll shit a brick (because EVERYONE who uses clen says it increases their blood pressure, and not just some chronic systolic elevation like you theorized).

**scottroxx** · 09-22-2012, 06:50 PM

Hey guys.. You both sound like very intelligent individuals. I do not have the knowledge or experience to doubt or contradict either of you but I must say... this was one of the best posts in actually solving a problem and some theory behind the issue at hand that I have seen out here. Please let's not make an awesome post into another yelling fest!!! Just saying!!
On a better note, I have not had a headache since starting the taurine and increased water intake and as soon as I can get my blood pressure verified ( and I will!! ). I will post the findings as well, also I have not experienced any cramping at all and I was having some pretty intense cramps!! ... Peace guyz, we all f'n rock!!!