Frontloading!!!!

[Sworder]

Atomini, I appreciate your attempt to clarify. But those aren't references..

Tamoxifen Citrate has a half life of 5-7days per http://www.drugs.com/pro/tamoxifen.html

It says on there that the metabolite you are referring to (actually you are referring to a post which has no references in it either, right?) N-desmethyl Tamoxifen the half life is approximately 14 days.

Please provide references if you wish to contradict.

Also, I DO NOT recommend frontloading using Atomini's half-life's as the injection amount would be much greater.

Edit: A frontload of 500mg Tren E/week using a 10day half life would equate to 950mg on the first day, do not inject this high amount.

[Sworder]

This is an example of a reference as well:
Testosterone treatment comes of age: new options for hypogonadal men
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...6.02618.x/full
While testosterone enanthate showed a half-life of 4·5 days

This is another example of a reference.........


Pharmacokinetic parameters of nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) after intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (Deca-Durabolin®) to healthy volunteers
http://www.eje.org/content/110/3_Suppla/S19.short
a mean half-life of 6 days for the release of the ester from the muscular injection depot into the general circulation;

Letrozole 5hour half-life?


COMPARATIVE BIOAVAILABILITY OF LETROZOLE UNDER FED AND FASTING CONDITIONS IN 12 HEALTHY SUBJECTS AFTER A 2·5 MG SINGLE ORAL ADMINISTRATION
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-P/abstract
However, in view of the half-life of about 2 d this

Use of an aromatase inhibitor for induction of ovulation in patients with an inadequate response to clomiphene citrate
http://journals.lww.com/obgynsurvey/...ion_of.19.aspx
Letrozole is a reversible, nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor with a half-life of 45 hours.



Atomini to be honest this was a pretty poor move from you, had you PMd me we could have discussed this matter and I could have edited it. Instead you post some halfassed figures with no back-bone which just confuses everybody and this thread is meant to help people.

Thinking cap: ON
Why would you start PCT after 14 days if you believe the Enanthate ester to have a 10 days HL? Also, why would you inject every 3.5days when the half life is 10days?..... Everybody's protocols reflect the numbers I originally posted. It has been the standard for a long time.

[Sworder]

Remember to get your half-lives correct! This isn't something you want to make a mistake on. There is a HUGE difference between someone mistakingly thinking Testosterone Enanthate having a 5 day half-life, frontloading as such, and not realizing it actually has a 10 day half-life (give or take a day or two). Also remember half lives are not EXACTLY the numbers listed (hence why I said 'give or take a day or two' for Enanthate). Half lives may be 2 days shorter or 2 days longer than the listed half-life, which can be dependant on the user's body, metabolism, diet, and so on and so forth.

I have my half-lives correct. Do you understand the gravity of giving too high numbers? Obviously you didn't read my post as if there is conflicting half-life information you always give the LOWEST. Because if you give a number that is too high you will be injecting too effing much. Your numbers are wrong and DANGEROUS! If you are going for 500mg Deca/week and use your numbers you would inject 1570mg on the FIRST DAY. That is too much, I hope you can see how reckless and dangerous your values are. If you would inject that amount of deca on the first day you will have hell to pay for a week.

[t-dogg]

This thread should be a stickie AFTER all information is correct.

[Tin-Man]

Good read...would you recommend frontloading test e/deca over a kickstart with D-bol?

[human project]

Good read...would you recommend frontloading test e/deca over a kickstart with D-bol?

D Bol works so well with test and deca why not wait until those compounds are fully in your system to start the d's. I always wait until week 4-6 to start d Bol or anadrol.

[Tin-Man]

I am about to start a test/deca cycle and was going to kickstart ~5 weeks with D-bol. I'm not wondering if I wouldn't get better result frontloading test/deca and either saving the D-bol or bringing it in the cycle later...something to think about I guess.

[MR-FQ320]

So if want to front load sustanon at 500 mg per week split into two injections the formula goes like this

500/7 * 15 + 500 = 1550 mg on first injection.

And for deca durabolin at 400 pw split into two

400/7*15+400=1250mg first injection ?

[Sworder]

I am about to start a test/deca cycle and was going to kickstart ~5 weeks with D-bol. I'm not wondering if I wouldn't get better result frontloading test/deca and either saving the D-bol or bringing it in the cycle later...something to think about I guess.

You can do either. There is a lot of personal preference in cycling and you can implement either. Personally I would frontload the test/deca and use the dbol pre-workout

[Sworder]

So if want to front load sustanon at 500 mg per week split into two injections the formula goes like this

500/7 * 15 + 500 = 1550 mg on first injection.

And for deca durabolin at 400 pw split into two

400/7*15+400=1250mg first injection ?

Sustanon is a blend so it makes it difficult to make for a frontload on the first day. Depending on how many injections/week you are planning I would double my three first(the amount I would double would depend on injection frequency).

Please do not use Atomini's numbers for the half-life. It is dangerous. I have personally frontloaded 1gram of deca and trust me, it is not like 400mg/week.

You have the formula correct but please use my numbers. They are safer and science supports the numbers I have given.

[Wazz]

Personally, I frontload SERMs the first day(Nolva 120mg Clomid 300mg) instead of the first week as most do with 40/20/20/20 Nolva 100/50/50/50 Clomid. Either is fine. You can frontload your testosterone, or whatever else you are running, in the same fashion by splitting the loading dose if you are "scared" of injecting too much or whatever the case. Clomid/Nolva have a five day half life and frontloading Nolva/Raloxifene when gyno occurs is most important! I wouldn't wait for the levels to build when you can jump to the desired levels by frontloading.

I can find some sources for the half life if you feel the need,. There are always going to be differences in half-life findings. Depending on injection area among other things. 5 days for the enanthate ester is what I go by, as interpreted by studies as well as Bill Roberts.

Thx. I'm not worried about pinning extra test. No biggie.

Reading in detail it's easy to see this both ways. Why frontload, it'll kick in whenever? Why not frontload the math supports it & it's a simple adjustment?

IMO nobodies wrong & there's no wrong answer. I've been researching half lifes & depending on the source you choose to use its an easy adjustment. It's still a very acceptable level (example test) as you're still pinning less than 1000mgs & some guys use that regularly on cycle.

As to the front loading when/if the Gyno monster attacks. To me it's a no brainer & I'll choose to g on the offensive. I see both sides & I'm for front loading as I look at the numbers.

Thanks Sworder. For those who do & support it's good info & I was off on my understanding & calculations. Got it now.

[Sworder]

Wazz, good post and I agree completely. You can frontload, or you can wait, you can kickstart, or you can use short esters. I just want to make sure people understand that there is an option out there called frontloading. There are studies where they use (front)loading doses for their 12 week runs. I was going to post some sooner or later to show how the scientists frontload

[t-dogg]

So on the first week you increase the first pin only? Say I want to run 500mgs/ 600mgs of test, how would the front load go for both?

[Sworder]

Yes, it's only the first pin. You can split the loading dose into two also if you wish. The "loading" dose for 500mg is 350mg, so you could split 175mg+normal injection so on monday you inject 250+175 425mg and then thursday again 425mg. Does that make sense? Because you are taking the number which is being loaded "extra" and dividing that into two. I prefer doing it all in the first injection but for sustanon, for example, splitting the load up in two makes more sense.

500mg Test E/week frontload would be 600mg on the first day, after that do your regular injection schedule.

600mg Test E/week frontload would be 728mg on the first day(round up or down to nearest most convenient measurement 750mg is fine)

[t-dogg]

500mg Test E/week frontload would be 600mg on the first day, after that do your regular injection schedule.

600mg Test E/week frontload would be 728mg on the first day(round up or down to nearest most convenient measurement 750mg is fine)

Is there any down sides to front loading that you know of? Thanks.

[Sworder]

Nope, no downsides; well the injection volume will be large so you have to split it. I usually do both quads, both glutes, and both shoulders on the first day.

I have frontloaded pretty hefty amounts before. 600mg Tren E 1000mg Test E 900mg Deca all in one day, doesn't hit me that hard because of the science behind the concept. It fast-forwards your progress incredibly which is why I love doing it. Don't have to wait 4weeks+ to notice a difference.

[t-dogg]

Nope, no downsides; well the injection volume will be large so you have to split it. I usually do both quads, both glutes, and both shoulders on the first day.

I have frontloaded pretty hefty amounts before. 600mg Tren E 1000mg Test E 900mg Deca all in one day, doesn't hit me that hard because of the science behind the concept. It fast-forwards your progress incredibly which is why I love doing it. Don't have to wait 4weeks+ to notice a difference.

So front loading is only done on the first pin correct?


Also lets say you are going to run a second compound later in the cycle, can you front load that as well?

[Sworder]

Yes, first pin only.

Yes, you can frontload the second compound as well.

You are compensating for the weeks previous to the injection, to get your levels up quickly.

[t-dogg]

Yes, first pin only.

Yes, you can frontload the second compound as well.

You are compensating for the weeks previous to the injection, to get your levels up quickly.

Well I should have a very interesting next cycle. Cant wait to make a log of it on here.

[Sworder]

Well I should have a very interesting next cycle. Cant wait to make a log of it on here.

Consider me subscribed!

[Bouch]

very interesting, makes sense that we already frontload the pct, why not the cycle. I'll be giving this a try on the next time around.

[MR-FQ320]

Sustanon is a blend so it makes it difficult to make for a frontload on the first day. Depending on how many injections/week you are planning I would double my three first(the amount I would double would depend on injection frequency).

Please do not use Atomini's numbers for the half-life. It is dangerous. I have personally frontloaded 1gram of deca and trust me, it is not like 400mg/week.

You have the formula correct but please use my numbers. They are safer and science supports the numbers I have given.

Ok thanks. When you say you have front loaded 1gram and its not like 400 per week , can you explain this a bit more thanks.

[Sworder]

Ok thanks. When you say you have front loaded 1gram and its not like 400 per week , can you explain this a bit more thanks.

The initial frontload dose is reflective of a certain mg/day and mg/week integer.

If you are frontloading 850mg Test E the first day that would equate to a 700mg/week dose.

[MR-FQ320]

Got it cheers

[SEOINAGE]

So is there much benefit to frontloading to someone on trt doing a blast? Or can we just make the cycle a couple weeks longer instead? I understand how it could be beneficial in more ways than one to someone going on pct.

[Sworder]

Lets say you are running 700mg Mast E/week on a blast. You inject it regularly, 350mg twice a week. That first week you will only metabolize 315mg of the total 700mg. 315mg Mast E that maybe didn't produce the effects you wanted them to produce. That 315mg Mast E kinda went to waste IMO!

So yes, there is a benefit to frontloading during a blast.

[senorrebo]

Excellent post, thank you.

[SEOINAGE]

Lets say you are running 700mg Mast E/week on a blast. You inject it regularly, 350mg twice a week. That first week you will only metabolize 315mg of the total 700mg. 315mg Mast E that maybe didn't produce the effects you wanted them to produce. That 315mg Mast E kinda went to waste IMO!

So yes, there is a benefit to frontloading during a blast.

I got ya, so I can see that particular benefit, thanks.

[motoxposse]

Roidcalculator.com shows weekly injections of aas have higher blood concentrations but less stable levels peak and drop off.
Front loading you will have flat line blood levels no peaks and valleys,so my question is if I inject test/deca front load style keeping aas levels stable is this better for gaining muscle?
Most people inject the same amount 1 a week say 500mgs is this less effective than the front load method

[kronik420]

is there any point in front loading if you are going to kickstart your cycle?

eg: test e 12 weeks, dbol 4 weeks...??

or what about.. test e 12 weeks, test prop 3 weeks ??

and what about front loading orals? like dbol?

[Sworder]

No point in frontloading if you are kickstarting!

Test E and Test prop for 3 weeks works fine.

Orals have such a short half life the frontload dose would be silly. Anything with a half life of 2 days I would frontload.

[jpowell]

Hmm this was a good interesting read. I've never front Loaded. It have kick started. I think will possibly try this out in the future, proli on my next cycle. Just to see or evn compare if there are any real benefits for myself.

Thanks for the info sworder. And evrybody else who contributed.

[Wazz]

just remembering back from studying...

Started my cycle today 500 test e a week. Front loaded 750mg as I had plenty of extra 250 vials & wasn't worried about a little extra. I know there's always going to be a debate on exact half lifes but I find this a simple addition to my cycle. 607mg being the "ideal" frontload.

I am curious if it will indeed speed up the overall effect as you are getting much closer to the ideal amount until you start your second injection. Everyone's different. Guess I'll keep entering updates in my journal & see how it is compared to others. Even that really won't matter.

Personal choice, I like front loading. The math supports it, why not. Thx for the thread

[mesotiny]

in this quote below,when he says take 120mg nolva and 300 clomid the first day, and 20mg and 50mg after that,does he mean at the beginning of the cycle,first pin...or at the beginning of your PCT...

Also why is this OP banned,is from bad advice??


"For frontloading SERMs You can either follow a double dose protocol which is often recommended although it isn't most often recognized as a frontload.
Clomid(Clomiphene) and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) have a 5 day half life.
So for Nolvadex you would ingest 120mg the first day only and 20mg/day after that.
Clomid 300mg first day and 50mg/day after that.
If gyno flares up I have found it very crucial to frontload nolva and increase your AI!"

[kronik420]

in this quote below,when he says take 120mg nolva and 300 clomid the first day, and 20mg and 50mg after that,does he mean at the beginning of the cycle,first pin...or at the beginning of your PCT...

Also why is this OP banned,is from bad advice??


"For frontloading SERMs You can either follow a double dose protocol which is often recommended although it isn't most often recognized as a frontload.
Clomid(Clomiphene) and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) have a 5 day half life.
So for Nolvadex you would ingest 120mg the first day only and 20mg/day after that.
Clomid 300mg first day and 50mg/day after that.
If gyno flares up I have found it very crucial to frontload nolva and increase your AI!"

for PCT i would just go with
nolva 40/20/20/20 (40mg ED for 1st week, then next 3 weeks at 20mg ED)
clomid 100/50/50/50 (100mg ED for 1st week, then next 3 weeks at 50mg ED)

[Euroholic]

I have bad eyes so i never use clomid. Nolva 80/40/40/20/20 works for me

[Fllifter]

I have bad eyes so i never use clomid. Nolva 80/40/40/20/20 works for me

80 mg is way to high. I would not do this at all. Even 40mg for 2 weeks is to much IMO ..

[cbus]

in this quote below,when he says take 120mg nolva and 300 clomid the first day, and 20mg and 50mg after that,does he mean at the beginning of the cycle,first pin...or at the beginning of your PCT...

Also why is this OP banned,is from bad advice??


"For frontloading SERMs You can either follow a double dose protocol which is often recommended although it isn't most often recognized as a frontload.
Clomid(Clomiphene) and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) have a 5 day half life.
So for Nolvadex you would ingest 120mg the first day only and 20mg/day after that.
Clomid 300mg first day and 50mg/day after that.
If gyno flares up I have found it very crucial to frontload nolva and increase your AI!"

He was banned for numerous reasons. And quotes like this is just the tip of the iceberg. Bad advice. There's no one in the world that should take 300mgs of clomid unless they want to cry like a 6 month old baby and wanted to keep their eyesight in tact. Just dumb.

[mesotiny]

So you think the front-loading of the PCT is not necessary?

also since he gave bad advice..should this frontloading of Test be bad also? everyone seemed to agree with it...

I want to try front loading since my first test cycle was very underdosed,I have gained and kept little weight,my diet was in check and workouts intensified.with little to no side effects...I have couple more vials of the test and will be ordering another,and use them up, as not to waste them...

[AD]

So you think the front-loading of the PCT is not necessary?

also since he gave bad advice..should this frontloading of Test be bad also? everyone seemed to agree with it...

I want to try front loading since my first test cycle was very underdosed,I have gained and kept little weight,my diet was in check and workouts intensified.with little to no side effects...I have couple more vials of the test and will be ordering another,and use them up, as not to waste them...

i would suggest you stick to the same dose and forget about frontloading your test. concentrate on your diet and training.

standard pct is nolva 40/40/20/20, clomid 100/50/50/50
or if you want a lowdose version, try 20/20/20/10/10/10, 50/50/50/25/25/25 respectively.

btw, i didnt know our good friend swordie was banned. always thought he just went into exile after his cover was blown.