Some observations about AAS gains....

From my limited experience, and through reading the results of countless cycles, I've come to the conclusion that there is a maximum amount of gains that one person can achieve in a single cycle, no matter how many compounds they stack or how much they eat.

A lot of beginners (myself included) think that if a cycle of 500mg / week of test should result in an average gain of 25 pounds while on-cycle (not what you retain after you finish), and an equal amount of deca should result in 15-20 pounds while on cycle, then by stacking the two you should be able to gain 40-45 pounds on cycle.

Of course, anyone who has done a few cycles has seen that this just doesn't happen. It seems to me that the maximum gains the average person can achieve on a cycle is 30 pounds no matter what they're taking (this includes water weight, which I believe is minimal because most people regularly take AI's. So the gains have to be primarily muscle if the lifter is eating clean calories). Usually the gains come fast and furious at first, but begin to taper off by week 6 or 7. Your weight skyrockets in the initial weeks of a cycle, but after these gains level off the quality of muscle increases. The shapeless mass you pick up initially begins to get chiseled, more defined. If you look at the pictures of guys who have documented their cycles, you see this quite clearly. After about 8 weeks, they've gained all the weight they're going to gain, but by week 12 the muscle looks much harder and more defined.

In my humble opinion, it might be best to stick with simple cycles of no more than three compounds - two injectables and maybe an oral. I'm not sure if there's any value to stacking any more than this.

However, in addition to a person's gains on-cycle, one must consider how many punds of LBM they retain afterwards. Again, is there really an enormous difference between a cycle of test and deca, and a cycle of test, deca, and Dbol in terms of LBM gains after the cycle is complete?

What do the more experienced vets think? How many of you have gained more than 30 pounds while on-cycle? Do you agree with my observations, or have you come to different conclusions from your own experience and what you've seen on the boards?

TOkidd

30 lbs of lean muscle in a cycle? Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by S&S_ShovelHead

30 lbs of lean muscle in a cycle? Good luck with that.

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That's not after PCT. I'm talking about the weight you gain during the cycle. Of course it drops during and after PCT. But most people put on 25-30 pounds during their cycle. Some of it is water weight, but with most guys taking A-dex and other AI's, I don't think that accounts for more than a few pounds. I'm in my 8th week of a test / deca cycle and I've gained 25 pounds. Very little water retention except in my feet. Almost all of that weight was gained in weeks 4-7. Now the needle on the scale won't budge, but my strength increases and the muscle I've gained is really starting to take shape. I don't believe I'll gain more than another 5 pounds in the next 4 weeks, but I know from seeing pictures of countless documented cycles (and from my own limited experience) that the quality of muscle will increase.

Anyways, your comment doesn't answer my question. What is the use of stacking multiple compounds if there is a threshold for gains that very few can surpass? Other than test + 1 other injectible and maybe an oral, is there any use to stacking more compounds if you're never going to gain more than 30 pounds while on cycle? The same goes with major dose increases, like taking 1 gram / week of test. You certainly aren't going to double your gains from 500mg / week, but you may double the side effects. I just want to see what others think about this subject.

Different compounds have different affects on the body and the muscles. For example Mast on a low BF% person has a muscle hardening capabilty while Var promises to remove water and tighten things.

Dbol, Adrol and Tbol help to bring speedy gains and can be used in the front of a cycle a good kickstart.

Tren...well thats just juice from the gods ;) giving you added aggression and superior muscle building capabilities. Honestly ir it werent for the shut down powers of tren then test would be a waste.

Some love EQ...I think its a wast but other (especialy hard gainers) like it for the way it makes then eat. I never had a problem with that lol)

I agree there is a natural threshold based on genetics but hopefully this helps with why mutli compounds mght be used.

Lunk:
I totally get this point. What I'm wondering is whether anyone can hope to gain more than 30 pounds on a cycle regardless of how many compounds they stack, what they eat, and what dosages they take. Of course, there are exceptions, but let's ignore those for now.

The reason this is bugging me is because I've done three cycles, and even though my last one was cut short after five weeks, my gains were about the same for every single one despite the fact that each one was very different.

Wat was your starting weight before your 1st cycle? and wat was it before your last cycle.

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Originally Posted by TOkidd

Lunk:
I totally get this point. What I'm wondering is whether anyone can hope to gain more than 30 pounds on a cycle regardless of how many compounds they stack, what they eat, and what dosages they take. Of course, there are exceptions, but let's ignore those for now.

The reason this is bugging me is because I've done three cycles, and even though my last one was cut short after five weeks, my gains were about the same for every single one despite the fact that each one was very different.

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I would agree that everyone has a natural limit if thats what you mean. If they didnt then there would be alot more pro's. Genetics just is what it is.

No doubt if you are talking 30lbs on a scale anyone can do it but 30lbs lean if you are already near your genetic limits. Probably not likely. Maybe a fluctuation of 10-15 but that would be it. At least thats my opinion.

30 lbs of LBM from a cycle? I doubt its all LBM but after a cycle ur lucky if u keep 10lbs of LBM from my understanding

the most ive gained was on my last 23lbs peak but it was on a shitload of gear and im off 1.5wks now and 10lbs has gone bye bye (water) and i expect another 10lbs to piss off quite rapidly soon as well

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Originally Posted by Hydroponics

30 lbs of LBM from a cycle? I doubt its all LBM but after a cycle ur lucky if u keep 10lbs of LBM from my understanding

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extremely lucky!!

30lbs of sustainable LBM on one cycle?
No way.

Okay, let me clarify. I shouldn't have used the term 'LBM' in my initial post. What I meant is the weight you gain while on cycle. Only a little is water if you're taking an AI regularly, so the majority of it has to muscle. I mean, what else would it be?

But apparently I've created some confusion by using the LBM term and gotten everyone completely off-topic. My question isn't about how much LBM you retain after the cycle is finished, but how much weight you gain while on cycle (discounting water weight, and assuming you are eating clean calories). What I'd like to know is how much you usually gain at your peak when on cycle. What is the most you've gained? What were you taking? What were your total gains after you finished your cycle?

I hope that helps get this thread back on track. I'm tempted to edit the initial post, but then people won't understand the comments made thus far. Still, maybe I'll do it anyways.

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Originally Posted by TOkidd

Okay, let me clarify. I shouldn't have used the term 'LBM' in my initial post. What I meant is the weight you gain while on cycle. Only a little is water if you're taking an AI regularly, so the majority of it has to muscle. I mean, what else would it be?

But apparently I've created some confusion by using the LBM term and gotten everyone completely off-topic. My question isn't about how much LBM you retain after the cycle is finished, but how much weight you gain while on cycle (discounting water weight, and assuming you are eating clean calories). What I'd like to know is how much you usually gain at your peak when on cycle. What is the most you've gained? What were you taking? What were your total gains after you finished your cycle?

I hope that helps get this thread back on track. I'm tempted to edit the initial post, but then people won't understand the comments made thus far. Still, maybe I'll do it anyways.

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thats a myth, i was on 1mg adex eod day and still held a tonne of water, beware the broscience.........

My friend is 23 yrs old 5'7 about 14% bf and he did a deca and test cycle. He went from about 170-190. Then he had to move to FL for work and stopped his diet, stopped training, and lost all the weight he gained. He is still 170 but he did keep some strength gains almost a year later... Still stronger than an ox

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Originally Posted by TOkidd

Okay, let me clarify. I shouldn't have used the term 'LBM' in my initial post. What I meant is the weight you gain while on cycle. Only a little is water if you're taking an AI regularly, so the majority of it has to muscle. I mean, what else would it be?

But apparently I've created some confusion by using the LBM term and gotten everyone completely off-topic. My question isn't about how much LBM you retain after the cycle is finished, but how much weight you gain while on cycle (discounting water weight, and assuming you are eating clean calories). What I'd like to know is how much you usually gain at your peak when on cycle. What is the most you've gained? What were you taking? What were your total gains after you finished your cycle?

I hope that helps get this thread back on track. I'm tempted to edit the initial post, but then people won't understand the comments made thus far. Still, maybe I'll do it anyways.

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I still stand by my post #7 and this is of course providing that diet and workouts stay consistant....

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Originally Posted by dec11

thats a myth, i was on 1mg adex eod day and still held a tonne of water, beware the broscience.........

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No broscience. More personal experience. I suppose everyone's different.

it also depends on your size when you start. Most of the people who gain a ton of weight on a cycle werent at the point were they needed to use steroids. So if you are under weight of course you will gain a lot on cycle. I'm luck to gain 5-10lbs on a cycle

Think of it this way. If you put 100 shot of nitrous on a stock nission altima. it will drop seconds in the quarter mile. It will make a dramatic difference. Then put the same 100hp shot on a corvette that has a ton of engine work done already. That 100 shot may drop the car a couple tenths of a second in the quarter mile

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Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

it also depends on your size when you start. Most of the people who gain a ton of weight on a cycle werent at the point were they needed to use steroids. So if you are under weight of course you will gain a lot on cycle. I'm luck to gain 5-10lbs on a cycle

Think of it this way. If you put 100 shot of nitrous on a stock nission altima. it will drop seconds in the quarter mile. It will make a dramatic difference. Then put the same 100hp shot on a corvette that has a ton of engine work done already. That 100 shot may drop the car a couple tenths of a second in the quarter mile

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great analogy and agree 100%

@gixxerboy

If u gain 5-10lbs of LBM off a cycle.
With the same diet and training how much LBM would u gain natty in the same amount of time as on cycle?
Rough guess is all I'm asking I know factors come into play

And a question, do use get dissapointed or less motivated, seeing the scale drop so much during PCT and after cycle?

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Originally Posted by Bjwr

@gixxerboy

If u gain 5-10lbs of LBM off a cycle.
With the same diet and training how much LBM would u gain natty in the same amount of time as on cycle?
Rough guess is all I'm asking I know factors come into play

And a question, do use get dissapointed or less motivated, seeing the scale drop so much during PCT and after cycle?

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the size im at i cant gain anymore naturally. I naturally cant hold the weight unless im on a decent dose of steroids. On cycle i get to 5'6 about 205. I never have stayed over 200lbs off cycle no matter what i've tried. Well unless i put on bf and i dont want that

at 5'6 thats pretty fuking huge.

that makes total sense gixx! a buddy of mine when i was younger did a cycle of sus /deca/500 at age 20 at 6'4" he gained around 50 lbs and one inch in height, went from a skinny tall kid to no shit looking like john cena and kindof the same proportions maybe a little bigger! he worked out with me for years and never did another cycle and after maybe 6 yrs he still looked like he knew what to do in a gym but that one cycle held for yrs .... afreak of nature maybe...good genes...btw he also ran all day for the usmc so who knows what he could have looked like?

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Originally Posted by gunnery

that makes total sense gixx! a buddy of mine when i was younger did a cycle of sus /deca/500 at age 20 at 6'4" he gained around 50 lbs and one inch in height, went from a skinny tall kid to no shit looking like john cena and kindof the same proportions maybe a little bigger! he worked out with me for years and never did another cycle and after maybe 6 yrs he still looked like he knew what to do in a gym but that one cycle held for yrs .... afreak of nature maybe...good genes...btw he also ran all day for the usmc so who knows what he could have looked like?

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Uhhh....

my point was he was still growing... hence the big freak of nature gains

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Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

the size im at i cant gain anymore naturally. I naturally cant hold the weight unless im on a decent dose of steroids. On cycle i get to 5'6 about 205. I never have stayed over 200lbs off cycle no matter what i've tried. Well unless i put on bf and i dont want that

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and what about off cycle? 5'4 maybe 5'5"? :)

Ok so what about this? You aren't increasing your calories throughout your cycle so your last 4 weeks you are burning fat. Are you doing the same calories your entire cycle? I mean because your calorie needs will increase as you increase in LBM. Or is it that the size you have attained is all the amount of anabolics in you can support? I really don't know but curious about if you increase calories.

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Originally Posted by SEOINAGE

Ok so what about this? You aren't increasing your calories throughout your cycle so your last 4 weeks you are burning fat. Are you doing the same calories your entire cycle? I mean because your calorie needs will increase as you increase in LBM. Or is it that the size you have attained is all the amount of anabolics in you can support? I really don't know but curious about if you increase calories.

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i just cant support that amount of lbm unless i have higher hormone levels. I can get to that weight off cycle but i would just be increasing fat not lbm

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Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

and what about off cycle? 5'4 maybe 5'5"? :)

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yes, on cycle i wear heals :)

hahaha ^^

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Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

yes, on cycle i wear heals :)

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For your calves?! I should try that too :)

Original topi, on cycle what people don't realize is that "water weight" also includes water that is in your muscles. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is the term for when your muscles are stuffed with glycogen and water, same thing happens when you are taking creatine. Post cycle when these storages are depleted you are left feeling flat. I gain around 5 pounds first week of a cycle and I lose it post-cycle also.

Don't like heels... hard to keep my balance when squatting... =D

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Originally Posted by Sworder

For your calves?! I should try that too :)

Original topi, on cycle what people don't realize is that "water weight" also includes water that is in your muscles. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is the term for when your muscles are stuffed with glycogen and water, same thing happens when you are taking creatine. Post cycle when these storages are depleted you are left feeling flat. I gain around 5 pounds first week of a cycle and I lose it post-cycle also.

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You sir,are not knowledgable enough for me to listen too ;) Just kidding! Keep up the good posts. You might teach Gixxer a thing or 2 about how to runa proper cycle one day :)

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Originally Posted by warmouth

You sir,are not knowledgable enough for me to listen too ;) Just kidding! Keep up the good posts. You might teach Gixxer a thing or 2 about how to runa proper cycle one day :)

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Thanks :)

I just finished a pretty substantial cycle and lost 10 lbs....But also lost 5% bf...so I'm very happy with the results, not sure what that figure to in muscle gain, but everyone wants my juice lol.....its not the majic pill its the hard work.

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Originally Posted by ironbeck

I just finished a pretty substantial cycle and lost 10 lbs....But also lost 5% bf...so I'm very happy with the results, not sure what that figure to in muscle gain, but everyone wants my juice lol.....its not the majic pill its the hard work.

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if you are for sure on body fat readings at higher weight and at lower weight we can calculate that easily.