Just got my estrogen count back from blood work...OMG!!

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 10:14 PM

I am very frustrated right now and I really need all the veterans inputs...

Monday, 10/1, marks the beginning of week 9 for me of my first cycle.

week 1-14: Test cyp @ 500/wk (250 Sun, 250 Wed)
week 5-14: HCG 500 IUs/wk (250 2x), pinning 2 days after cyp injections
week 1-16: ar-r L-stane 10mg eod starting from first pin
week 15 -16: HCG 1000 IUs/wk (500 2x)

Below are my estrogen results from BW....now before I point any fingers and call a fake product from what seemed to be a very reputable vendor on this site, I would like to know what could possibly have constituted my E levels to be THROUGH the roof????

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 10:31 PM

EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT!!!

Personally this past cycle I ran 2mg letrozole /day and my estrogen was still high and that is an outrageous amount of letrozole not to be recommended! It's a balancing act adjusting your estrogen with an AI and one size does not fit all. You can't say that with 500mg/week Testosterone is going to equate to a certain amount of e2 conversion. You aromatase enzymes concentration and sensitivity is going to be different based on genetics. Bodyfat will also create deviations. 10mg Stane EOD is a good GUIDELINE for everybody. Some need more though, had you been more experienced you would have noticed your estrogen was sky high. This will make you more experienced!!

Adjust to 25mg ED for a 2 days and then go to 25mg EOD and see how that works out.

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 10:31 PM

Everyone is different bro. Some folks require up to 25mg ED with stane. Trial and error is how we all learn. I know Samson here used stane and it worked for him just fine. If I recall, he used 12.5 ED. 10mg EOD is very entry level dose.

I use Adex, and I run it at .5 ED and my level is at 21 pg/mL, if I used the standard protocol of .25 EOD, I'd get up there.

**kmms** · 09-30-2012, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Everyone is different bro. Some folks require up to 25mg ED with stane. Trial and error is how we all learn. I know Samson here used stane and it worked for him just fine. If I recall, he used 12.5 ED. 10mg EOD is very entry level dose.

I use Adex, and I run it at .5 ED and my level is at 21 pg/mL, if I used the standard protocol of .25 EOD, I'd get up there.

and if i used .5ed i wouldn't be able to hit the gym because the joint pain would be crippling. everyone is different, learn the sides and adjust accordingly.

**< <Samson> >** · 09-30-2012, 10:42 PM

Any sides from this that you notice?

I ran Stane @ 12.5 EOD for a bit then cut it to 12.5 every 3 days. After about 6 weeks into cycle I completely stopped. I have not noticed anything really. I had water retention since day one due to my crap diet.

I still haven't got my blood work done.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT!!!
Adjust to 25mg ED for a 2 days and then go to 25mg EOD and see how that works out.

Sworder, thanks for your input. I am not gonna lie, I am in panic mode right now because I have done my research and I know what kind of effects high estrogen can have on the body. Anyway.....I switched from Arimidex to L-stane because I read on here that L-stane is the better AI, but now I am wondering if I should go back to my pharmaceutical grade A-dex just to be safe?? If so, what dose of that would you recommend? .5mg ED?

Originally Posted by austinite

Everyone is different bro. Some folks require up to 25mg ED with stane. Trial and error is how we all learn. I know Samson here used stane and it worked for him just fine. If I recall, he used 12.5 ED. 10mg EOD is very entry level dose.

I use Adex, and I run it at .5 ED and my level is at 21 pg/mL, if I used the standard protocol of .25 EOD, I'd get up there.

Austinite, would you suggest switching to the Pharmaceutical grade Adex at .5mg ED from this point forward?

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

Any sides from this that you notice?

I have had severe knee/surrounding knee pains which has inhibited me from doing squats, but my doctor told me that is from patellafemoral syndrome. But now that know the negative effects of estrogen, this could very well be why I am having these severe pains.

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 10:58 PM

I'm a huge fan of adex. Give it a try. I use my prescription Anastrozole, same thing.

**DanB** · 09-30-2012, 10:59 PM

I always use pharm or trusted ugl (if stuck) for my a.i and pct, they cheaper then research chems in some cases and this not an area that you want to leave open to unnecessary problems i.m.o

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

I'm a huge fan of adex. Give it a try. I use my prescription Anastrozole, same thing.

Originally Posted by DanB

I always use pharm or trusted ugl (if stuck) for my a.i and pct, they cheaper then research chems in some cases and this not an area that you want to leave open to unnecessary problems i.m.o

Thanks guys, I was hoping you would say that because I am going to make the switch to my pharm grade Adex to be on the safe side.

I know the normal protocol for this is .25 eod, but obviously this wont work for me. Where do I start? .5 ED?

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Thanks guys, I was hoping you would say that because I am going to make the switch to my pharm grade Adex to be on the safe side.

I know the normal protocol for this is .25 eod, but obviously this wont work for me. Where do I start? .5 ED?

With those levels, you might run .5 ED for a week or so, then switch to EOD.

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 11:06 PM

Take a deep breath, relax

Guys that flare up with gyno usually panic like this. I did

The studies on high estrogen is usually more on the long term. You won't get any crazy symptoms overnight so relax first of all.

Arimidex or Aromasin or Letrozole work in different ways but produce pretty much the same results at different doses. Don't blame the L-stane as being bad because you didn't use enough. If you feel that you want to switch you can do so to Arimidex @ 0.5mg EOD, I would do 0.5mg ED for the next couple days to try to drop the estrogen a little quicker and then keep doing 0.5mg EOD.

Edit: Or a week like austinite says! Just try to get a good understanding of how your estrogen is getting balanced. Doing a caliper test to measure your BF is a good indicator for me. Normally I cruise around 9-10%BF if I bloat a lot I get a couple percent higher. When I am low on estrogen bordering to extremely low my BF reading will be 6%.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Take a deep breath, relax

Guys that flare up with gyno usually panic like this. I did

The studies on high estrogen is usually more on the long term. You won't get any crazy symptoms overnight so relax first of all.

Arimidex or Aromasin or Letrozole work in different ways but produce pretty much the same results at different doses. Don't blame the L-stane as being bad because you didn't use enough. If you feel that you want to switch you can do so to Arimidex @ 0.5mg EOD, I would do 0.5mg ED for the next couple days to try to drop the estrogen a little quicker and then keep doing 0.5mg EOD.

Edit: Or a week like austinite says! Just try to get a good understanding of how your estrogen is getting balanced. Doing a caliper test to measure your BF is a good indicator for me. Normally I cruise around 9-10%BF if I bloat a lot I get a couple percent higher. When I am low on estrogen bordering to extremely low my BF reading will be 6%.

Originally Posted by austinite

With those levels, you might run .5 ED for a week or so, then switch to EOD.

THANK YOU guys!

Ok, I will follow this protocol. But here is the thing....How will I know if I should switch to eod or stay at ed? I know BW is the answer, but if I take .5 ED and get another BW done in a week, will that be enough time to detect estrogen levels?

I guess I am just trying to understand how I will know if I should switch to .5 eod or stay at .5 ed.

**DanB** · 09-30-2012, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Take a deep breath, relax

Guys that flare up with gyno usually panic like this. I did

The studies on high estrogen is usually more on the long term. You won't get any crazy symptoms overnight so relax first of all.

Arimidex or Aromasin or Letrozole work in different ways but produce pretty much the same results at different doses. Don't blame the L-stane as being bad because you didn't use enough. If you feel that you want to switch you can do so to Arimidex @ 0.5mg EOD, I would do 0.5mg ED for the next couple days to try to drop the estrogen a little quicker and then keep doing 0.5mg EOD.

Edit: Or a week like austinite says! Just try to get a good understanding of how your estrogen is getting balanced. Doing a caliper test to measure your BF is a good indicator for me. Normally I cruise around 9-10%BF if I bloat a lot I get a couple percent higher. When I am low on estrogen bordering to extremely low my BF reading will be 6%.

^^^^^ good point on the b/f - bloat - estrogen, i never considered this before

but i am now awaiting the threads to begin titled '' advise on adex cycle to cut''

im guessing you have competed before to pick up this little trick

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:13 PM

Watch the Titanic. If you cry, you're not taking enough.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Watch the Titanic. If you cry, you're not taking enough.

Problem is I cried watching the Titanic before I ever cycled....

On a more serious note...I guess what I can do is take the Adex @ .5ed starting Monday for 1 full week (till next Monday) and then on Tuesday of next week start with .5 eod. THen after 1 month, I will get BW done. Does this sound like a good plan?

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:18 PM

^ Sounds great. Do you have Tamox on hand?

**DanB** · 09-30-2012, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Problem is I cried watching the Titanic before I ever cycled....

On a more serious note...I guess what I can do is take the Adex @ .5ed starting Monday for 1 full week (till next Monday) and then on Tuesday of next week start with .5 eod. THen after 1 month, I will get BW done. Does this sound like a good plan?

it does to me

2 weeks would be sufficient time to get repeat bw done i.m.o if you are anxious to find out sooner

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:19 PM

^^^ Good call on the BF sworder.

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

it does to me

2 weeks would be sufficient time to get repeat bw done i.m.o if you are anxious to find out sooner

You cried during the titanic? I'm telling everyone.........

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

^^^^^ good point on the b/f - bloat - estrogen, i never considered this before
but i am now awaiting the threads to begin titled '' advise on adex cycle to cut''

im guessing you have competed before to pick up this little trick

I was just thinking that it would make sense since a lot of estrogen is stored in the subcut fat that if you deplete it of estrogen you should get a lower reading of BF. So I was off cycle and I think it was (Days)0.5mg/0.5mg/2.5mg letro and my BF reading changed 3% :P The girl at the gym looked at me like I just did this BF reading on you.. 3% in 4 days WOW

Edit: Clarifying that I did not lose any BF doing that it is just the BF reading will come out different when you deplete the estrogen from the fat. It is not recommended being that low!

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

^ Sounds great. Do you have Tamox on hand?

I do have Nolva on hand. 20mg pills. Would you recommend I integrate it along? If so, how much / how long?

Originally Posted by DanB

it does to me

2 weeks would be sufficient time to get repeat bw done i.m.o if you are anxious to find out sooner

That is great to hear. I will DEFINITELY get BW after 2 weeks!! Thanks.

**DanB** · 09-30-2012, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

I was just thinking that it would make sense since a lot of estrogen is stored in the subcut fat that if you deplete it of estrogen you should get a lower reading of BF. So I was off cycle and I think it was (Days)0.5mg/0.5mg/2.5mg letro and my BF reading changed 3% :P The girl at the gym looked at me like I just did this BF reading on you.. 3% in 4 days WOW

yeah it makes perfect sense and i knew people play with letro pre contest for this very purpose i just never put it together in my head to use for purpose you said, did you invite her home to have a better look at the changes?

i know the username from somewhere, meso?

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

I do have Nolva on hand. 20mg pills. Would you recommend I integrate it along? If so, how much / how long?

Only if gyno shows up. You can use nolva for reversal.

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

yeah it makes perfect sense and i knew people play with letro pre contest for this very purpose i just never put it together in my head to use for purpose you said, did you invite her home to have a better look at the changes?

i know the username from somewhere, meso?

No, she is really cute though! I know she is single, into fitness and gymnastics. I would just think it's awkward if she denied me since I go there almost everyday.

Yes! Meso

**DanB** · 09-30-2012, 11:36 PM

yeah i feel same way about a gym, the last thing you need is somebody coming over moaning ''why didnt you call me after you fvcked me'', its my sanctuary, but damn it hard sometimes not to try it, especially if you knew she was into gymnastics.........

thought that was the one alright, good to have ya!!!

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 11:37 PM

Got ya.

Ok, so we got a plan in tact...

.5 Adex ed for 7 days, then .5 eod throughout cycle and leading up to PCT (not during).

I will get BW done after 2-3 weeks to see where my E levels are.

Austinite, Sworder, and the rest...thank you so much for your prompt replies. I REALLY appreciate it!

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

No, she is really cute though! I know she is single, into fitness and gymnastics. I would just think it's awkward if she denied me since I go there almost everyday.

Yes! Meso

Thought that frontloading post looked familiar. Good thread.

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Got ya.

Ok, so we got a plan in tact...

.5 Adex ed for 7 days, then .5 eod throughout cycle and leading up to PCT (not during).

I will get BW done after 2-3 weeks to see where my E levels are.

Austinite, Sworder, and the rest...thank you so much for your prompt replies. I REALLY appreciate it!

Everything will be ok buddy. Hope you at least feel better going forward

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

yeah i feel same way about a gym, the last thing you need is somebody coming over moaning ''why didnt you call me after you fvcked me'', its my sanctuary, but damn it hard sometimes not to try it, especially if you knew she was into gymnastics.........

thought that was the one alright, good to have ya!!!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Got ya.

Ok, so we got a plan in tact...

.5 Adex ed for 7 days, then .5 eod throughout cycle and leading up to PCT (not during).

I will get BW done after 2-3 weeks to see where my E levels are.

Austinite, Sworder, and the rest...thank you so much for your prompt replies. I REALLY appreciate it!

No problem and good luck with the rest of your cycle! Eat a lot

Originally Posted by austinite

Thought that frontloading post looked familiar. Good thread.

Thanks. I rewrote most of it for here as views change and how to implement. Always a good thread to have and share views on. imo

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Everything will be ok buddy. Hope you at least feel better going forward

Originally Posted by Sworder

No problem and good luck with the rest of your cycle! Eat a lot

Thank YOU again. I will bring this thread back TTT when I get my results back.

**austinite** · 09-30-2012, 11:50 PM

^ looking forward to seeing results. Also, please update your Members Cycle thread with this info, or at least link to this thread because it will be great for researchers to learn with you.

**bp2000** · 09-30-2012, 11:52 PM

You don't have any itchy nips or anything with e2 that high? If so you can take some Nolva 10mg or so ED for a week just incase.

**kelkel** · 10-01-2012, 12:15 AM

Op, read this regarding estrogen testing:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ou-should-know

kel

**Trying-Hard** · 10-01-2012, 09:19 AM

bp2000, I did have itchy nips and sensitivity, then I took 25mg ED of L-satne and 20mg Nolva for 1 week and the sides went away.

kelkel, thanks for the link.

Going to pick up my prescribed Adex right now...not taking ANY chances.

Thanks again...updates to follow.

**Bonaparte** · 10-01-2012, 11:49 AM

10mg EOD of Aromasin is a very minimal dose.
You obviously need more, especially since you're running nothing but Test and HCG .
And 161 is hardly "through the roof". E2 can go several times higher without even showing.

**Trying-Hard** · 10-01-2012, 02:32 PM

Everything I've been reading states 40-70 is the normal range for men. So when I saw mine to be 4x as high, you can understand why I freaked out, especially with all the reading I have been doing about the effects of it on the body (but I am aware now those effects are long term)

I just want to get it under control so I can grow!! I am assuming that my gains have been inhibited by these high estrogen levels.

Anyway, on track now and we will see what happens when I get BW done. Like I said, I'll be sure to post results in this thread.

**HitIt** · 10-01-2012, 02:51 PM

hcg will also increase endogenous estrogen (and your ai won't affect that)

**Trying-Hard** · 10-01-2012, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by HitIt;61***57

hcg will also increase endogenous estrogen (and your ai won't affect that)

I knew HCG raises estrogen, but I didn't know the AI doesn't inhibit the estrogen from HCG. Why would AI inhibit estrogen from test cyp, but not from HCG? Isn't estrogen, estrogen?

**HitIt** · 10-01-2012, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard;61***72

I knew HCG raises estrogen, but I didn't know the AI doesn't inhibit the estrogen from HCG. Why would AI inhibit estrogen from test cyp, but not from HCG? Isn't estrogen, estrogen?

e2 is produced by the adrenal glands and testes in men. since this e2 is not derived from conversion of T by the aromatase enzyme, it's not regulated by an aromatase inhibitor.

**Bonaparte** · 10-01-2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by HitIt

e2 is produced by the adrenal glands and testes in men. since this e2 is not derived from conversion of T by the aromatase enzyme, it's not regulated by an aromatase inhibitor.

I disagree. If anything, it increases aromatase expression, which an AI will still take care of.
The only way that an AI wouldn't work is if HCG converts directly to estrogen through some other means that the aromatase enzyme (which it cannot, since a peptide chain has a completely different structure than a sex hormone), or if it caused your adrenal glands to pump out an insane amount of estrogen. This is highly unlikely, since adrenal E2 production only accounts for maybe 2% of natural E2 levels in men.

I haven't worried about this much lately, but I'm fairly certain the estrogenic effects of HCG are mainly due to it increasing Leydig cell activity in the testes, which is also where most E2 conversion takes place E2 is not produced by the testes, as you say, but by aromatase enzymes within the leydig cells of the testes).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estradi...e_reproduction