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  1. #1
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Could you help/give suggestions on my lean bulk cycle?

    Hey all, so I am planning a lean or clean bulk cycle at the start of december, but I am researching a ton before I start. First off, here are my stats:

    23Yrs old (please dont flame on "you are too young, you have a bunch of natty test in you." I have natural low levels of test and will eventually opt for TRT.
    5'10
    190lbs
    12%BF
    Training properly for 5 years
    Have used 4 cycles before this

    Now that the stats are out of the way. I do some low level MMA competition and I am a basketball player, hence why I am doing lean bulk. I have used sustanon 325 and test enth before and I just didnt like the compound so I am staying away from any long esters. I personally find test prop to be much better so that is why I am using it as my base. I plan to run this cycle for 12 weeks looking to gain 10-15lbs of clean mass while maintaining my athletic ability. Here is the proposed cycle I would like to run:

    Weeks 1-12 Test Prop 125mgs EOD
    Weeks 1-12 Mast Prop 100mgs EOD or Enth 400mgs 2xweek (not sure what my source has yet)
    Weeks 1-4 TBOL 40mgs ED
    Weeks 7-12 Anavar 60mgs ED
    Weeks 9-12 Winstrol 20mgs ED
    Weeks 9-10 Proviron 20mgs ED
    Weeks 11-12 Proviron 40mgs ED
    Aromasin will be ran 12.5mg ED

    PCT:
    HCG 5000iu ED for 10 Days
    Clomid 200mgs Day 1, 150mgs Day 2, 100mgs for 2 weeks, 50mgs for 2 weeks
    Nolvadex 40/40/20/20

    Also have hawthorne berry, milk thistle, celery seed extract, vitamin C, and omega 3s on hand for support.

    Now I may be running too many compounds or orals for most peoples likings so Id like to see what you all have to say about that. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Lunk1's Avatar
    Lunk1 is offline aka "JOB"
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    What is your test level?

  3. #3
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    good gawd, where in the world did you get the 50,000 iu's in ten days protocol??? regardless, it should be ran on cycle. your clomid is too aggressive imho. personally my vision gets impaired (yellow haze) above 150mg. and why four orals? i would dump the winny. and i won't brow beat you about your age and cycles.
    Last edited by MickeyKnox; 10-01-2012 at 05:35 PM. Reason: mised oral

  4. #4
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Curious what the cause of your naturally low test levels are. Is there a documented reason?

  5. #5
    fit2bOld's Avatar
    fit2bOld is offline Knowledgeable Member- Recognized Member Winner - $100
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    You really don't want to opt for the TRT. Really? Why the provirion? 2 orals?

  6. #6
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the responses guys. As for my test levels it was my test serum was 291 and my free test was 5.8. Well below the norm according the the charts. I am not sure why my test levels are low. I believe it could be a couple of reasons. I ran the PHs when I was around 16-18 years old from time to time. I was stupid and had no idea what the hell i was doing. I just listened to people without taking initiative and doing my own research. Now I am a lot older and i believe smarted, but i still would like some input from you guys about the stack.

    I have some winny laying around and i thought that it wouldnt be too bad considering the dose and duration of use is low/short. I thought that proviron worked very well with masteron /winnny/var and i figured it would lean me out a little bit more towards the end of the cycle. I appreciate all of the comments and concerns, but I would like to get some real input on my stack rather than my medical history. I know that stuff is necessary, but the big picture here is about the stack.

    Thank you

  7. #7
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    i would run hcg on cycle bro, run it at 250iu 2/wk. nevermind the 5k blast/day

    you can achieve your goals easisly with a simple prop/var cycle and spot on diet. you look pretty lean and this combo will shine on you. but, if youre hell bent on this cycle you can keep the tbol for a kicker and the var near the end to harden up. but i imho, i would drop the winny and prov. you have mast in there anyway.

  8. #8
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    I will run the HCG on cycle then as you suggest.

    lol Im pretty set on keeping the tbol as the kicker, the var, and the masteron . May I ask you why drop the winny and proviron since they are low dose and short duration? Other than them being hepatoxic, detrimental to lipids, etc. why would this be "horrible." Would it be useless or do the health risks completely outweight the results?

    Also, how do you feeling about the dosing with the gear for this cycle?

    Thanks

  9. #9
    t-dogg's Avatar
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    I wouldnt run three orals. Next, coming from a mma back ground I will tell you anavar will be hard on you. Grappling isnt to bad, but pad work and striking you will hate.
    Last edited by t-dogg; 10-01-2012 at 06:19 PM.

  10. #10
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    I will run the HCG on cycle then as you suggest.

    lol Im pretty set on keeping the tbol as the kicker, the var, and the masteron . May I ask you why drop the winny and proviron since they are low dose and short duration? Other than them being hepatoxic, detrimental to lipids, etc. why would this be "horrible." Would it be useless or do the health risks completely outweight the results?

    Also, how do you feeling about the dosing with the gear for this cycle?

    Thanks
    most of the answer is in your question. and i honestly think they are too hard on your liver to justify the risk. im not a big fan of multiple orals.

  11. #11
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-dogg View Post
    I wouldnt run three orals. Next, coming from a mma back ground I will tell you anavar will be hard on you. Grappling isnt to bad, but pad work and striking you will hate.
    Anavar being hard on me? I havent heard of this before. If anything I thought the winstrol would, can you elaborate on why the var might me hard?

    Thanks

  12. #12
    Lunk1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyKnox View Post
    most of the answer is in your question. and i honestly think they are too hard on your liver to justify the risk. im not a big fan of multiple orals.
    Do I or don't I????

  13. #13
    t-dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    Anavar being hard on me? I havent heard of this before. If anything I thought the winstrol would, can you elaborate on why the var might me hard?

    Thanks

    Yes anavar. The pumps you can get from it. Calfs, forarms, shoulders. Its hard to train properly on anavar.


    You need to plan a cycle out that complaints mma well. Right now you are way over doing this cycle imo for mma.

  14. #14
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyKnox View Post
    most of the answer is in your question. and i honestly think they are too hard on your liver to justify the risk. im not a big fan of multiple orals.
    I see, well I appreciate the input. Do you think the 125mgs of prop eod and 100mgs of mast prop eod will work? how about the tbol at 40 mgs to kick start? one more thing. is aromasin at 12.5mgs ED alright? or should I add more or less?

  15. #15
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Do I or don't I????

    Haha thats what i am thinking!

  16. #16
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    People will probably freak out here, but my last cycle I was doing 40mgs of var AND 40mgs of winny for the last 4 weeks of my cycle. I was cramping like a mo fo on this. The pumps werent too bad actually. But I thought this would be from the winstrol because in the past when I have run var i felt clean and loose.

  17. #17
    t-dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    People will probably freak out here, but my last cycle I was doing 40mgs of var AND 40mgs of winny for the last 4 weeks of my cycle. I was cramping like a mo fo on this. The pumps werent too bad actually. But I thought this would be from the winstrol because in the past when I have run var i felt clean and loose.

    IMO it makes no sense to run multi orals. Just run one and increase the dose. 40mgs of anavar is nothing for a male.

  18. #18
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Do I or don't I????
    hahaha leave it to you Lunk

    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    I see, well I appreciate the input. Do you think the 125mgs of prop eod and 100mgs of mast prop eod will work? how about the tbol at 40 mgs to kick start? one more thing. is aromasin at 12.5mgs ED alright? or should I add more or less?
    of course it will work. lol but you could easily drop your prop to 75-100mg/eod. and i would start your aromasin @ 12.5mg/eod..work up not down.

  19. #19
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Ill probably stick with 125mg of the prop. last time I ran it it was 100mg and I liked it, but I feel I could handle 125. Also, with the aromasin . i think they are 25mg pills and are impossible to split. Should I just take it whole EOD?

  20. #20
    t-dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    Ill probably stick with 125mg of the prop. last time I ran it it was 100mg and I liked it, but I feel I could handle 125. Also, with the aromasin. i think they are 25mg pills and are impossible to split. Should I just take it whole EOD?


    Thats fine to do. I run 12.5 each day or 25 every other day personally.

  21. #21
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    Ill probably stick with 125mg of the prop. last time I ran it it was 100mg and I liked it, but I feel I could handle 125. Also, with the aromasin . i think they are 25mg pills and are impossible to split. Should I just take it whole EOD?
    no, split them. use a razor blade. 25mg eod is similar to 12.5 ed ?

  22. #22
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    I am pretty prone to gyno, water retention so I figure run it 25mg EOD.

  23. #23
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    good luck with your cycle.

  24. #24
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks again all for the input!

  25. #25
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhswhite500 View Post
    I will run the HCG on cycle then as you suggest.

    lol Im pretty set on keeping the tbol as the kicker, the var, and the masteron . May I ask you why drop the winny and proviron since they are low dose and short duration? Other than them being hepatoxic, detrimental to lipids, etc. why would this be "horrible." Would it be useless or do the health risks completely outweight the results?

    Also, how do you feeling about the dosing with the gear for this cycle?

    Thanks
    Drop the extras like Mickey said. It's really just overkill. More is not always better.

  26. #26
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Judging by the size of your quads ill take your advice my man. lol so after dropping the winny and proviron do all the other doses and lengths look alright?

  27. #27
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Dose yes, length no. Prop=short ester so 10 weeks is good. Other than that what Mickey said works. HCG during and clomid does not need to be that high. Now visit the nutrition forum and have them help you "nail" your diet down to your specific goals. Free nutritionists there!

    kel

  28. #28
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Quick update I have to mention. My source only has Mast Enathante version : /. Will it be okay to run the prop and mast at the same time considering they are different esters?

    Im assuming that it is probably okay, but I will probably have to change up the dosing and run time for each compound. Any suggestions?

    Thanks

  29. #29
    kelkel's Avatar
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    It's ok. 10 weeks is still fine. Dosing is subjective. Your mast is probably 200mg/ml so 1ml twice a week is great. It's basically a dht and won't aromatize. Adjust your pct start time.

  30. #30
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    May I ask why not 12 weeks for the total cycle? and yes the mast is 200mg/CC and I was gonna run 400mgs/week. When you say adjust your PCT time. Could you elaborate a little? Obviously propinate will clear the system faster than the masteron enanthanate so does this mean wait a few days after the last prop injection?

    Thanks

  31. #31
    kelkel's Avatar
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    A thought would be stop the mast at 10 wks and finish the next two weeks with your prop. Start you're pct 2 days later.

  32. #32
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Thats what I was thinking so the mast isnt in my system while the test is out. so heres the new lay out of what ill do:

    Weeks 1-12 Test Prop 125mgs EOD
    Weeks 1-10 Mast Enth 200mgs 2xweek
    Weeks 1-4 TBOL 40mgs ED
    Weeks 8-12 Var 60mgs ED
    Aromasin 25mgs ED
    HCG 250ius 2xweek

    Start PCT 2 days after last test prop pin:

    Clomid day 1 150mgs, 100/100/50/50
    Nolvadex 40/40/20/20

    BOOM

  33. #33
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Hit the nutrition forum to make it even better. Let me know how you do when all said and done. PM me.

  34. #34
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Hey Kel, call me stupid/noob but I cant seem to be able to send you a PM

  35. #35
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Whats up guys. So after much deliberation I have decided to make a final change to my upcoming cycle. Hopefully this thread hasnt died. I am going to put my order in to my source tomorrow or saturday so Id like to get one more final check before I purchase the goods lol. Here it is....

    Weeks 1-12 Test prop 125mgs EOD
    Weeks 1-10 Primobolan Enth 500mgs 2xweek (or should this be pinned EOD, keeping reading mixed opinions?)
    Weeks 1-4 TBOL 40mgs ED
    Weeks 8-12 Anavar 60mgs ED
    Weeks 1-12 HCG 250iu 2xweek (should I run this for the entire 12 weeks or start mid cycle?)
    Weeks 1-12 Aromasin 25mg EOD

    PCT:
    Clomid 100/100/50/50
    Nolva 40/40/20/20
    Vitamin C 6 grams per day for 30 days
    Vitamin E toco8 powder by Primordial Performance

    A couple of ending questions, bear with me here... First off, should I run HCG with the PCT too? and if so, at same dose? secondly, can I run proviron instead of nolvadex . I keep reading that Nolva has been linked to supressing IGF 1 levels. Obviously, I wouldnt want that so Im curious if it could be replaced with Proviron. Lastly, should I use something to block DHT conversion to avoid Hair loss, Prostate hypertrophy, and acne?

    Thanks again everybody
    Last edited by mhswhite500; 10-04-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: forgot to add what gear to take for PCT plan

  36. #36
    kelkel's Avatar
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    You don't have enough posts yet to pm. Run hcg during your cycle, you don't really need it after. I would not use proviron instead of nolva. Your only using nolva for 4 weeks, your IGF1 level will survive just fine. Hell, aromasin can even elevate IGF1 and your using that during cycle. Proviron on cycle, sure, it has benefits but it depends on your goals. It's basically a DHT, won't aromatize and is suppressive of estrogen on several levels so if used during cycle it "may" eliminate your need for an AI. It also binds to shbg and albumin more strongly than T which allows more free T. Not that you'll have that issue anyway! Be cognizant of blood pressure if your prone to it. DHT can raise BP.

    Personally I would not use any dht blockers unless you know for sure you are prone to MPB. I've never had to worry about it. If I did, I would hope only the grays fall out.

  37. #37
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    Yeah, I figured I didnt have enough posts... Anyways, if thats what you suggest then Ill just run the Nolva instead of the Proviron . I know that my moms family is not bald at all so I think Im covered? I am very prone to high BP so I will definitely not want to mess with that. Obviously AAS raise BP to some degree, but I dont want to get crazy here...

    Other than the proviron switch does everything else look all ship shape?

    Thanks

  38. #38
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Yes. Primo does not need to be eod. How you have it is fine.

  39. #39
    mhswhite500 is offline Junior Member
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    awesome. Thank you Kel! I can finally get my stuff and not stress. I will post another thread on my status of the stack when I start in decemeber.


    Thanks again bro

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