Frontloading

**theanimal2114** · 09-30-2012, 06:43 PM

So I was wondering if frontloading would be worth it for a 12 week cycle of test e. I have read that people say it will get your blood levels up faster which in turn will get it into your system at a quicker rate. For a test e cycle of 500mg a week would it be a good idea to start the first week off with 1000mg? how would that be dosed if it is even worth doing. 250mg a week eod for the first week? thanks

**Capebuffalo** · 09-30-2012, 06:45 PM

It's not worth it with long esters.

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 06:50 PM

OP...are you aware of the risks of cycling at 22?

**theanimal2114** · 09-30-2012, 06:57 PM

Why not? I have heard many say it is worth it.

**theanimal2114** · 09-30-2012, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

OP...are you aware of the risks of cycling at 22?

Yes, I am just researching and getting information.

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 07:00 PM

Are you willing to risk your bodies ability to creat test naturally and end up on TRT for life? Are you willing to rish high BP, high cholesterol and possibly ED in the future?

**Shsm** · 09-30-2012, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Are you willing to risk your bodies ability to creat test naturally and end up on TRT for life? Are you willing to rish high BP, high cholesterol and possibly ED in the future?

Tell him about the penis shrinking. That's sure to scare him away

**theanimal2114** · 09-30-2012, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by theanimal2114

Yes, I am just researching and getting information.

Ive just heard mixed things on frontloading and wanted to see what you guys think.

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shsm

Tell him about the penis shrinking. That's sure to scare him away

I was wondering what caused this...guess I have an excuse now!

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by theanimal2114

Ive just heard mixed things on frontloading and wanted to see what you guys think.

It's a practice that some like..if you search Sworder did anice write up on it last week I believe. I think for a begginer it's best to keep things as simple as possible and there is no reason to be impatient

**Riptorn** · 09-30-2012, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I was wondering what caused this...guess I have an excuse now!

First you blame the moil, then the cold pool water and now the AAS? It's about time you had an intervention and faced the facts. hehe

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Riptorn

First you blame the moil, then the cold pool water and now the AAS? It's about time you had an intervention and faced the facts. hehe

That cold water causes shrinkage...I will not debate this further

**theanimal2114** · 09-30-2012, 07:22 PM

Thanks Lunk1 that was a great read on frontloading. Now if you were to frontload would you want to increase the dosage of AI? For example if the AI dosage is .25mg of Arimidex EOD for the cycle, would it be a good idea to double the dosage to .50mg EOD for the first week when Frontloading? Or just keep it at .25 and up it if signs of gyno occur?

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by theanimal2114

Thanks Lunk1 that was a great read on frontloading. Now if you were to frontload would you want to increase the dosage of AI? For example if the AI dosage is .25mg of Arimidex EOD for the cycle, would it be a good idea to double the dosage to .50mg EOD for the first week when Frontloading? Or just keep it at .25 and up it if signs of gyno occur?

My opinion is that you would still start at .25 and adjust if necessary.

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 07:55 PM

The point of the frontload is to fastforward to say week 4 where you are metabolizing 500mg Test E/week. The first week you are not "doing" more than 500mg Test E/week even though you are injecting 1000mg for example.

In week 4 of a cycle with testosterone enanthate you will still be metabolizing from Week 2 and 3. And since you didn't inject anything prior to Week 1 this is why you frontload.

This is why you do not need to increase the AI dose as Lunk proposes, because you are not doing more than 500 Test E/week at any given time.

**Capebuffalo** · 09-30-2012, 08:21 PM

"The theory is that steady state concentration (and therapeutic effect) will be reached faster. But this doesnt work for anabolic steroids . Why? BC steady state concentration is usually achieved after four half lives. The half life for long esters is days and weeks.

Assuming T1/2 of TestEnanthate is 10 days, then it won't be reached until 40 days. Also, of the several recognized pathways of action, the MAIN one we are interested in, the anabolic component of protein synthesis (transcrption/translation, etc.) takes a good two weeks to occur. No amount of loading dose is going to increase the speed of this process.

The loading dose = the volume of distribution x the desired concentration (i.e. the concentration at steady state).

If you run the numbers for a 500mg weekly dose:
Loading dose = usual maintenance dose / usual dosage interval x kel (t1/2/0.693). This comes out to about 1 gm.
But as explained above, you will get all the risk and none of the benefits.

It does work for faster acting compounds however, thus you may frontload with single esters or orals."

from todoveritas. he knows his chemistry & biology.

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 08:26 PM

[QUOTE=Capebuffalo;6189306]"The theory is that steady state concentration (and therapeutic effect) will be reached faster. But this doesnt work for anabolic steroids . Why? BC steady state concentration is usually achieved after four half lives. The half life for long esters is days and weeks.

Assuming T1/2 of TestEnanthate is 10 days, then it won't be reached until 40 days. Also, of the several recognized pathways of action, the MAIN one we are interested in, the anabolic component of protein synthesis (transcrption/translation, etc.) takes a good two weeks to occur. No amount of loading dose is going to increase the speed of this process.

The loading dose = the volume of distribution x the desired concentration (i.e. the concentration at steady state).

If you run the numbers for a 500mg weekly dose:
Loading dose = usual maintenance dose / usual dosage interval x kel (t1/2/0.693). This comes out to about 1 gm.
But as explained above, you will get all the risk and none of the benefits.

It does work for faster acting compounds however, thus you may frontload with single esters or orals."

from todoveritas. he knows his chemistry & biology.[/QUOTE]

I was going to say...you been holding bac Cape lol

**Capebuffalo** · 09-30-2012, 08:36 PM

[QUOTE=Lunk1;6189314]

Originally Posted by Capebuffalo

"The theory is that steady state concentration (and therapeutic effect) will be reached faster. But this doesnt work for anabolic steroids . Why? BC steady state concentration is usually achieved after four half lives. The half life for long esters is days and weeks.

Assuming T1/2 of TestEnanthate is 10 days, then it won't be reached until 40 days. Also, of the several recognized pathways of action, the MAIN one we are interested in, the anabolic component of protein synthesis (transcrption/translation, etc.) takes a good two weeks to occur. No amount of loading dose is going to increase the speed of this process.

The loading dose = the volume of distribution x the desired concentration (i.e. the concentration at steady state).

If you run the numbers for a 500mg weekly dose:
Loading dose = usual maintenance dose / usual dosage interval x kel (t1/2/0.693). This comes out to about 1 gm.
But as explained above, you will get all the risk and none of the benefits.

It does work for faster acting compounds however, thus you may frontload with single esters or orals."

from todoveritas. he knows his chemistry & biology.[/QUOTE]

I was going to say...you been holding bac Cape lol

Never plagedize Give credit where credit is due. IMO

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 08:47 PM

Steady state concentrations are different from wanting to metabolize a certain amount. Also, makes no sense that you get "all the risk and none of the benefits", it acts on the AR in certain tissue but just not on the muscle tissue? I understand you didn't write this but I believe his application to myogenesis is off. A lot of researchers frontload testosterone in AAS studies as well as it being implicated often with antibiotics.

"This works for single esters or orals?"

A good example would be Dianabol which has a half life of 4 hours, steady state concentrations will be achieved(I have seen five is the more accurate number) after five half lives. So then we take a Dianabol at 9AM 1PM 5PM 9PM 1AM and we won't reap the benefits of the Dianabol until we fall asleep?:P Then the steady state concentrations diminish agains and you have to rebuild SSC. Wouldn't this somehow perpetuate the idea that since steady state concentrations are constantly fluctuating dianabol isn't a good or effective compound. Which is far from true. And also most people do not comply with taking the dianabol every 4 hours like they should but still get good results.

I don't doubt his chemistry or biology knowledge, but the application of the AAS and interaction with the AR is inaccurate in this case imo. I do pretty short cycles(6-8) and most(70%ish) of my gains come within the first four weeks, then at 6-8 weeks gains come to a halt. If it were true that @ the 6week mark is when I should start reaping the benefits then I have been missing out as I am gaining almost everything when I am not supposed to due to steady state concentrations not being achieved. Also sarcoplasmic hypertrophy always takes place within first week as a result of the ARs being activated from the frontload.

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 09:00 PM

Also, keep in mind that steady state concentrations of an ESTER with testosterone for example is rather irrelevant. You want the ester to be metabolized leaving active compound in your blood stream. Ester needs to be cleaved off!!

**Capebuffalo** · 09-30-2012, 09:01 PM

I'm sorry I don't understand I thought myogenesis was at the embryonic level

I'm not trying to be argumentative but understand what you are saying.

**Sworder** · 09-30-2012, 09:11 PM

Depends on what dictionary you use

I have The American Heritage Medical Dictionary. Some say just muscle tissue formation and some specify at an embryonic level, a lot of the Vet dictionaries use this definition as does Wikipedia.

I know where you are coming from and I don't take offense. I always come off as extremely argumentative and may seem aggressive in my statements. It's all good though, we are here to learn as am I. If I believe in something I will argue that it is right and if enough logical information is presented I leave the discussion enlightened! This happens a lot and is beneficial!

**Lunk1** · 09-30-2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Depends on what dictionary you use

I have The American Heritage Medical Dictionary. Some say just muscle tissue formation and some specify at an embryonic level, a lot of the Vet dictionaries use this definition as does Wikipedia.

I know where you are coming from and I don't take offense. I always come off as extremely argumentative and may seem aggressive in my statements. It's all good though, we are here to learn as am I. If I believe in something I will argue that it is right and if enough logical information is presented I leave the discussion enlightened! This happens a lot and is beneficial!

I honestly have not seen this at all and I for one am loving the info that both you and Cape are providing on this subject

**Capebuffalo** · 10-01-2012, 05:10 AM

Ok. Let me come at it from a different angle. See if you can help me understand.
Speaking from my practical experience I have use a lot of test e. no matter the dosage I use I don't see the benefits until week 3-5. So what is the benefit of front loading? I still won't see anything noticeable for the same 3-5 weeks. Yes the level will be slightly higher but it would be if I ran a higher amount but if your not running the same amount through out their will be a dip.
Now prop is a different story for me and I can see and have front loaded it.
So what is the benefit? And again I am asking to learn not argue.

**baseline_9** · 10-01-2012, 05:54 AM

I will let u guys have my opinion on front loading long esters soon enough... I will be running a short heavy blast cycle for 5-6 weeks

**Sworder** · 10-01-2012, 11:12 AM

The benefit is that you come to the level you want to be at in the first week! The difference in the amount you metabolize is big! Especially in the first week. The only dip that you get is when you discontinue your cycle and the testosterone "self tapers". Try it out! I am sure you will be very happy with the results.

Basically, you can't talk about SSC with injectable AAS because it doesn't follow the normal process of eating a pill for example.

The steady state concentration doesn't apply to injectable AAS because before you can use the testosterone from the testosterone+ester. After cleaving the ester you will have the hydrolysis of the testosterone, first order kinetics don't apply in the same way because of it. The half life of testosterone ONLY no ester is about 4 hours. Lets compare the ester to a time release and that you aren't consuming the testosterone or getting it in active circulation until the ester is gone. After the ester is gone is when you are "eating the testosterone pill" if that is making sense. This is why you can achieve maximum and steady levels of AAS with a frontload. I hope I am doing a good job explaining, feel free to question any and everything that doesn't make sense.

**Sworder** · 10-01-2012, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

I will let u guys have my opinion on front loading long esters soon enough... I will be running a short heavy blast cycle for 5-6 weeks

Just make sure you are running the proper loading dose!

**theanimal2114** · 10-01-2012, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Just make sure you are running the proper loading dose!

Hey Sworder read your post on frontloading. In it you say to pin 607mg of test e the first day only, if you are normally doing 500mg of test e a week. So my question to you is after the first day of 607mg of test e would you go back to normal injecting for the next pin? For example 250mg every 3.5 days for the normal 500mg a week.

**bp2000** · 10-01-2012, 10:02 PM

So if you don't feel the effect of long ester until week 4 what does frontloading do for you?

**Sworder** · 10-01-2012, 10:04 PM

Yes, 600mg first day, then regular 250mg after that. You got it!

**theanimal2114** · 10-01-2012, 10:48 PM

Thanks bro, your posts are very helpful

**Sworder** · 10-01-2012, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by bp2000

So if you don't feel the effect of long ester until week 4 what does frontloading do for you?

Frontloading enables me to start off at full speed from Day 1. The whole thinking about long esters haven't kicked in yet is bothersome too and there is no need to wait as you are never exceeding the mg amount/week. The general consensus that the longer you are on the worse it is to your HPTA makes frontloading a very good option as you can maximize your gains in a shorter amount of time. Get in and get out! A lot of guys have a hard time keeping the high intensity that a cycle requires for 10+weeks too. Diet becomes sloppy and you are wasting time and wasting gear as gains start coming to a halt. Your CNS isn't recovering as fast as your muscles are so it does exhaust your body.

It does so I can hit my cycles hard and get off quicker so I can do more cycles/year to get better gains. You will get better results doing 4 8weekers/year than 2 16weekers even though you are on for the same amount of time/year you will get better results with doing 8 weekers. Typically if I am going to run 600mg Test E/400mg Tren E/300mg Deca I will frontload 1000mg Test E/600mg Tren E/900mg Deca. That is a pretty heavy cycle but it has me growing very quickly and I can drop the long esters at 5-6 weeks and by week 8 I am done with it and can start PCT.

I could avoid the long esters and just stick with short esters but that would be a lot of pinning and A LOT pricier.