AIs and Lipid Values???

[warmouth]

Hey guys. I was wondering how much AIs affect lipid values? I was reading about them on the homepage and it says that certain ones can cause elevated lipid panels, so use with caution. Since I have posted up my BW results, and know my lipid values are extremely high, could this be caused by my use of liquidex? Is there any other AI that doesnt raise cholesterol? I have been thinking of ordering Stane or letro. By Hypertension has been high, even whie taking my BP meds. Thanks guys!

[kmms]

not sure if this will help or not but i've been taking very small doses of arimidex, started off with .25 and dropped to .125 because it was just too strong, and after getting back my 1 month BW my total cholesterol, hdl, triglycerides etc all came back on the on the low end of the range. don't have the results with me right now but i remember triglycerides were 75 on a scale of <150.

i'm not sure what in particular to attribute that to, i eat tons of leafy greens every day, two tablespoons of virgin coconut oil and one fresh coconut every day etc. i guess what i'm getting at is that while arimidex has an extremely profound impact on my estrogen levels as evidenced by my rather low dose, it hasn't had any pronounced negative effect on my cholesterol, triglycerides, hdl etc

[warmouth]

I thought about dropping my dose, but ended up going up to .35 EOD because my blood pressure remained high. It has slightly lowered a bit since, but still not fully under control. I just thought that liquidex could be having a part in my elevated cholesterol levels. I am just wondering if letro of the extremestsnr would be a better choice in this matter? Thanks or the response!

[MuscleInk]

On Friday, I spoke with one of the larger Pharma companies that manufacturers two of the AIs discussed on the forum. The medical director wasn't aware of any impact in lipid values or any differential effects across AIs on lipids. I have a call with the VP of OPs next week for a further discussion.

There has also been a question about gender differences between AIs - i.e. are some more effective in men then others. The medical director wasn't aware of any published data since these compounds were developed to treat breast cancer in women and the application to males is more of an off label use. Again, the VP of ops may have more insight or may provide some published data if it exists.

[kmms]

my blood pressure was 115/70 so i don't think the dbol, test e or arimidex has really had any negative sides yet. crossing my fingers. no acne, bloating, hair loss etc. in my 8th wk now and total weight is up 16 pounds with no change in bf%. significant strength gains across the board, vastly improved sexual strength and endurance, girls are happy and i'm happy. everything has gone smooth as silk so far.

[warmouth]

On Friday, I spoke with one of the larger Pharma companies that manufacturers two of the AIs discussed on the forum. The medical director wasn't aware of any impact in lipid values or any differential effects across AIs on lipids. I have a call with the VP of OPs next week for a further discussion.

There has also been a question about gender differences between AIs - i.e. are some more effective in men then others. The medical director wasn't aware of any published data since these compounds were developed to treat breast cancer in women and the application to males is more of an off label use. Again, the VP of ops may have more insight or may provide some published data if it exists.

Wow MuscleInk. Keep me updated on this. I was just browsing steroid dot com and researching AIs and saw it said what it did on lipids. I didnt even realize it could effect lipids until I read it. This might be a subject for a sticky if you get all the information needed. I suspect most, as myself, are unaware of the negative side effects of certain AIs. I would like to know which ones are better/worse on lipid profiles. Since I have a family history of high cholesterol, I would definitely like to use the safest AI for me. And others might need something different. I know everyone reacts differently to certain compounds. I might be better off taking letro, while you may be better off with armidex and others might be better of with stane. It is interesting and we might should delve into this more. Make sure to keep us/me posted. This could get very interesting!

[Metalject]

Hey guys. I was wondering how much AIs affect lipid values? I was reading about them on the homepage and it says that certain ones can cause elevated lipid panels, so use with caution. Since I have posted up my BW results, and know my lipid values are extremely high, could this be caused by my use of liquidex? Is there any other AI that doesnt raise cholesterol? I have been thinking of ordering Stane or letro. By Hypertension has been high, even whie taking my BP meds. Thanks guys!

They can have a very strong affect, especially when combined with aromatizing steroids. This can actually make it worse. Most steroids have some type of affect on cholesterol HDL or both HDL and LDL. However, the use of an AI has the strong ability to skew levels even more. The reason is estrogen plays an important role on cholesterol and an AI suppresses the hormone so much this can mess things up. This is why in my opinion it's best not to use an AI when possible. If you can run a cycle with only a SERM and control things with the SERM and your diet you'll be far better off in the long run...and yes, that is possible with moderate cycles and diet.

Personally, of all the side effects guys tend to worry about on message boards and in the gym, cholesterol is the most serious one and rarely gets the attention it deserves. If your cholesterol is off I would stop using the AI.

[Metalject]

not sure if this will help or not but i've been taking very small doses of arimidex, started off with .25 and dropped to .125 because it was just too strong, and after getting back my 1 month BW my total cholesterol, hdl, triglycerides etc all came back on the on the low end of the range. don't have the results with me right now but i remember triglycerides were 75 on a scale of <150.

i'm not sure what in particular to attribute that to, i eat tons of leafy greens every day, two tablespoons of virgin coconut oil and one fresh coconut every day etc. i guess what i'm getting at is that while arimidex has an extremely profound impact on my estrogen levels as evidenced by my rather low dose, it hasn't had any pronounced negative effect on my cholesterol, triglycerides, hdl etc

Just to clarify, a significant reduction in HDL cholesterol is a negative affect on cholesterol.

[kmms]

Just to clarify, a significant reduction in HDL cholesterol is a negative affect on cholesterol.

you are correct and i am sure that i misspoke regarding my hdl. will check my numbers later tonight. my hdl was right in line with my expectations after adding coconut and coconut oil to my diet for the last several months. medium chain fatty acids ftw.

[warmouth]

They can have a very strong affect, especially when combined with aromatizing steroids. This can actually make it worse. Most steroids have some type of affect on cholesterol HDL or both HDL and LDL. However, the use of an AI has the strong ability to skew levels even more. The reason is estrogen plays an important role on cholesterol and an AI suppresses the hormone so much this can mess things up. This is why in my opinion it's best not to use an AI when possible. If you can run a cycle with only a SERM and control things with the SERM and your diet you'll be far better off in the long run...and yes, that is possible with moderate cycles and diet.

Personally, of all the side effects guys tend to worry about on message boards and in the gym, cholesterol is the most serious one and rarely gets the attention it deserves. If your cholesterol is off I would stop using the AI.

Iam with you here. I have not once seen a post about this on this forum, that is, since I have become active. High cholesterol can be very dangerous, even in a short amount of time. Arteries can harden fairly quick, as can plaque build up. I always see things like gyno, water retention, soreness, etc, but those are all visual side effects. I think this cholesterol thing should be further researched, even if it is by me. But if MuscleInk can nail down more advice from the professionals, that is going to help out tremendously. I just learned about lipids in relation to AI today while reading, and I am definitely going to research a bit more to see the risk to reward while using them. I know they are common place, and I am no one to change the flow of things. But if they are bad for ME, then I will not use them. That goes for anything for that matter. The only reason I use an AI in the first place is because my already high BP stays high, even while on my prescribed meds. But this could be due to the elevated lipids due to the AI use. And when you say using SERMs insteadof AIs, you mean something like Nolvadex @ say 10mgs ED?

[warmouth]

And as far as a SERM goes, do they not act in the same way as an AI, as far as reducing the amount of estrogen produced? And what are they known to do in relation to lipid panels?

[Metalject]

On Friday, I spoke with one of the larger Pharma companies that manufacturers two of the AIs discussed on the forum. The medical director wasn't aware of any impact in lipid values or any differential effects across AIs on lipids. I have a call with the VP of OPs next week for a further discussion.

There has also been a question about gender differences between AIs - i.e. are some more effective in men then others. The medical director wasn't aware of any published data since these compounds were developed to treat breast cancer in women and the application to males is more of an off label use. Again, the VP of ops may have more insight or may provide some published data if it exists.

Insight from guys like this can be useful and then other times it's worth as much as a pile of garbage. A lot of these guys at compounding pharmacies, sure they know how to make a product but that's really as far as it go. Very few of them understand the compounds in a true active sense. For example, there's a large compounding facility in East TN, they manufacture a large amount of prescription testosterone. I've spoken to one of the guys who works there a few times and while he's a very smart guy on one end he couldn't tell you the ins and outs of testosterone to save his life.

[Metalject]

And as far as a SERM goes, do they not act in the same way as an AI, as far as reducing the amount of estrogen produced? And what are they known to do in relation to lipid panels?

SERM's inhibit the estrogen hormone from attaching to the receptors...they do not inhibit aromatase or lower estrogen levels to any significant degree. However, as far as lipids go SERM's actually have a positive effect on lipid values...while they're anti-estrogenic on one end they can actually be estrogenic on another end, in this case the liver. Estrogen in the liver helps regulate cholesterol by both improving HDL and LDL levels.

[Metalject]

Iam with you here. I have not once seen a post about this on this forum, that is, since I have become active. High cholesterol can be very dangerous, even in a short amount of time. Arteries can harden fairly quick, as can plaque build up. I always see things like gyno, water retention, soreness, etc, but those are all visual side effects. I think this cholesterol thing should be further researched, even if it is by me. But if MuscleInk can nail down more advice from the professionals, that is going to help out tremendously. I just learned about lipids in relation to AI today while reading, and I am definitely going to research a bit more to see the risk to reward while using them. I know they are common place, and I am no one to change the flow of things. But if they are bad for ME, then I will not use them. That goes for anything for that matter. The only reason I use an AI in the first place is because my already high BP stays high, even while on my prescribed meds. But this could be due to the elevated lipids due to the AI use. And when you say using SERMs insteadof AIs, you mean something like Nolvadex @ say 10mgs ED?

Yep, cardiovascular health should be the primary concern of most, but often it's not.

With a moderate cycle, a lot of guys can control gyno with a SERM like Novladex or Clomid...Nolva seems to be a little better at this though...10-20mg/ed. If that doesn't work, odds are no amount will and you'll have to use an AI or adjust your stack in some way. When it comes to water retention, I'm a firm believer this can be controlled through diet. Yes, estrogenic steroids can cause water retention, but so many times I'd be willing to bet the brunt of the water retention is due to overeating...especially carbohydrates. I think many would be surprised how well they can control water retention with their diet. Of course, you get into big boy cycles and once again this can change things, and it's always important to keep in mind the issue of individual response.

[warmouth]

Insight from guys like this can be useful and then other times it's worth as much as a pile of garbage. A lot of these guys at compounding pharmacies, sure they know how to make a product but that's really as far as it go. Very few of them understand the compounds in a true active sense. For example, there's a large compounding facility in East TN, they manufacture a large amount of prescription testosterone. I've spoken to one of the guys who works there a few times and while he's a very smart guy on one end he couldn't tell you the ins and outs of testosterone to save his life.

Is that right???? I am in east tennessee all the time! lol

[MuscleInk]

Insight from guys like this can be useful and then other times it's worth as much as a pile of garbage. A lot of these guys at compounding pharmacies, sure they know how to make a product but that's really as far as it go. Very few of them understand the compounds in a true active sense. For example, there's a large compounding facility in East TN, they manufacture a large amount of prescription testosterone. I've spoken to one of the guys who works there a few times and while he's a very smart guy on one end he couldn't tell you the ins and outs of testosterone to save his life.

Yes that's very true and also why you have to dig a bit deeper. With a lot of Pharma companies, employees are specialized so they know their particular area inside and out but any off label use usually stumps them. I'm hoping some of the on site clinical folks can shed some light on the issue but I realize I could still come up dry. AI and SERMs were developed primarily to block estrogen activity in estrogen positive breast cancer. Clinically I've used all the products mentioned in my patients and never seen any effect on lipids, BUT, we are referring to women who clearly aren't taking testosterone for any reason; unlike those of us here. We all know from experience that testosterone therapy screws with lipid profiles and it certainly would be plausible that AIs compound the problem. I'd really like to see some references to medically published data showing the effects of AIs on lipid profiles in men as well as any differential effects across various AIs which has also been a topic of discussion as of late (i.e. that some AIs don't impact lipids as much as others or that some are more effective in men at down regulating estrogen). Again, the problem could be that the Pharma companies aren't as concerned with these issues because the use in men is off label and di minimus compared to its therapeutic intent (women with BrCa), this empirical studies in this area are of little interest to the Pharma company's bottom line.

One a side note, I spoke to directors at three TRT clinics on Friday for their feedback on the topic. Not surprisingly they had no thoughts on the subject and said that most use Adex simply because it has a long half life, acts quickly, and is tolerated well in the majority of men.

[warmouth]

Yep, cardiovascular health should be the primary concern of most, but often it's not.

With a moderate cycle, a lot of guys can control gyno with a SERM like Novladex or Clomid...Nolva seems to be a little better at this though...10-20mg/ed. If that doesn't work, odds are no amount will and you'll have to use an AI or adjust your stack in some way. When it comes to water retention, I'm a firm believer this can be controlled through diet. Yes, estrogenic steroids can cause water retention, but so many times I'd be willing to bet the brunt of the water retention is due to overeating...especially carbohydrates. I think many would be surprised how well they can control water retention with their diet. Of course, you get into big boy cycles and once again this can change things, and it's always important to keep in mind the issue of individual response.

Very informative. So Nolva @ 10mgs ED could possibly be a decent substitute for an AI? And it doesnt negatively effect lipid values?

[warmouth]

Yes that's very true and also why you have to dig a bit deeper. With a lot of Pharma companies, employees are specialized so they know their particular area inside and out but any off label use usually stumps them. I'm hoping some of the on site clinical folks can shed some light on the issue but I realize I could still come up dry. AI and SERMs were developed primarily to block estrogen activity in estrogen positive breast cancer. Clinically I've used all the products mentioned in my patients and never seen any effect on lipids, BUT, we are referring to women who clearly aren't taking testosterone for any reason; unlike those of us here. We all know from experience that testosterone therapy screws with lipid profiles and it certainly would be plausible that AIs compound the problem. I'd really like to see some references to medically published data showing the effects of AIs on lipid profiles in men as well as any differential effects across various AIs which has also been a topic of discussion as of late (i.e. that some AIs don't impact lipids as much as others or that some are more effective in men at down regulating estrogen). Again, the problem could be that the Pharma companies aren't as concerned with these issues because the use in men is off label and di minimus compared to its therapeutic intent (women with BrCa), this empirical studies in this area are of little interest to the Pharma company's bottom line.

One a side note, I spoke to directors at three TRT clinics on Friday for their feedback on the topic. Not surprisingly they had no thoughts on the subject and said that most use Adex simply because it has a long half life, acts quickly, and is tolerated well in the majority of men.

You have got to get all the information you can get Muscle. I know it is off label for men, and I understand you cant just come out and ask something in a way that might raise suspicion. But if there is anyway you could ask the safety of them as far as cardio health (in women) that would be awesome. Just let us know and keep posted if there is anything extraordinary that you can come up with. Thai is going to be good for all of us I do believe!

[MuscleInk]

Very informative. So Nolva @ 10mgs ED could possibly be a decent substitute for an AI? And it doesnt negatively effect lipid values?

Correct. I'm picking up tamoxifen next week to use instead of Adex. I've been running Adex at .5mg for two weeks due to E levels. I'm pretty sure my lipid profile will look like hell right now.

[MuscleInk]

You have got to get all the information you can get Muscle. I know it is off label for men, and I understand you cant just come out and ask something in a way that might raise suspicion. But if there is anyway you could ask the safety of them as far as cardio health (in women) that would be awesome. Just let us know and keep posted if there is anything extraordinary that you can come up with. Thai is going to be good for all of us I do believe!

Absolutely. I want to get as much info as I can out of professional and personal curiosity.

.....and I whole heartedly (pun intended) agree with your early statement about lipid profiles. It's a topic that doesn't get as much attention as it should here sometimes. There are many threads directed at liver health, gyno management, and getting maximal results on cycle and the cholesterol issue gets overlooked a bit IMO.

[warmouth]

Awesome man! We are going to get this out there so everyone here might be able to remain as healthy as possible while doing this stuff. I am also going to pick up some tamoxifen. If that is going to be better on cholesterol management, then that what I am going to do. You know, it might hinder gains a little, but shouldnt be enough to worry about. Plus, the risk of elevated tryglycerides and LDL, it is worth sacrificing a little on the gains. I am just glad I read that today. This might very well be something that everyone here needs to get checked to make sure they are ok and their heart health is ok. That is way more important than being a giant beast after a couple of cycles. With all of the great information on here for liver, gyno, etc, we need some great info on stuff that could be detrimental to the most important thing, out heart, the most important muscle. Just another thread to read to educate before we medicate! I cant wait to get the ball rolling with this.

[Metalject]

Is that right???? I am in east tennessee all the time! lol

Yep, Tri-Cities area.

[warmouth]

That is awesome. I had no idea there was a place around here that did it. Crazy!

[Metalject]

Yes that's very true and also why you have to dig a bit deeper. With a lot of Pharma companies, employees are specialized so they know their particular area inside and out but any off label use usually stumps them. I'm hoping some of the on site clinical folks can shed some light on the issue but I realize I could still come up dry. AI and SERMs were developed primarily to block estrogen activity in estrogen positive breast cancer. Clinically I've used all the products mentioned in my patients and never seen any effect on lipids, BUT, we are referring to women who clearly aren't taking testosterone for any reason; unlike those of us here. We all know from experience that testosterone therapy screws with lipid profiles and it certainly would be plausible that AIs compound the problem. I'd really like to see some references to medically published data showing the effects of AIs on lipid profiles in men as well as any differential effects across various AIs which has also been a topic of discussion as of late (i.e. that some AIs don't impact lipids as much as others or that some are more effective in men at down regulating estrogen). Again, the problem could be that the Pharma companies aren't as concerned with these issues because the use in men is off label and di minimus compared to its therapeutic intent (women with BrCa), this empirical studies in this area are of little interest to the Pharma company's bottom line.

One a side note, I spoke to directors at three TRT clinics on Friday for their feedback on the topic. Not surprisingly they had no thoughts on the subject and said that most use Adex simply because it has a long half life, acts quickly, and is tolerated well in the majority of men.

Yeah, this is a tough topic because most of the data out there refers to post-menopausal women being treated for breast cancer, and even it is inconclusive. It seems in those studies Aromasin tends to be the friendliest, Arimidex mostly friendly but possible changes and Letrozole the unfriendliest. However, again this is not taking into account supplementing with aromatizing steroids, which obviously changes everything completely. However, the significant decreases in HDL make sense when we think about what these compounds do (AI, testosterone) and the importance of estrogen in relation to cholesterol.

[Metalject]

Very informative. So Nolva @ 10mgs ED could possibly be a decent substitute for an AI? And it doesnt negatively effect lipid values?

Should improve cholesterol.

[kmms]

Awesome man! We are going to get this out there so everyone here might be able to remain as healthy as possible while doing this stuff. I am also going to pick up some tamoxifen. If that is going to be better on cholesterol management, then that what I am going to do. You know, it might hinder gains a little, but shouldnt be enough to worry about. Plus, the risk of elevated tryglycerides and LDL, it is worth sacrificing a little on the gains. I am just glad I read that today. This might very well be something that everyone here needs to get checked to make sure they are ok and their heart health is ok. That is way more important than being a giant beast after a couple of cycles. With all of the great information on here for liver, gyno, etc, we need some great info on stuff that could be detrimental to the most important thing, out heart, the most important muscle. Just another thread to read to educate before we medicate! I cant wait to get the ball rolling with this.

do you already have some olive and or coconut oil in your diet?

[Metalject]

Awesome man! We are going to get this out there so everyone here might be able to remain as healthy as possible while doing this stuff. I am also going to pick up some tamoxifen. If that is going to be better on cholesterol management, then that what I am going to do. You know, it might hinder gains a little, but shouldnt be enough to worry about. Plus, the risk of elevated tryglycerides and LDL, it is worth sacrificing a little on the gains. I am just glad I read that today. This might very well be something that everyone here needs to get checked to make sure they are ok and their heart health is ok. That is way more important than being a giant beast after a couple of cycles. With all of the great information on here for liver, gyno, etc, we need some great info on stuff that could be detrimental to the most important thing, out heart, the most important muscle. Just another thread to read to educate before we medicate! I cant wait to get the ball rolling with this.

It really shouldn't make that big of a difference in your gains/progress. Very low estrogen levels can slow down mass gains a bit but your estrogen levels are not going to bottom out because you're using a SERM. This is one of those things that's been blown way out of proportion over the years. Even if it keeps you from gaining as much (which it shouldn't be much) what's worse, a pound or two less of muscle or horrible lipid profiles? Pretty easy question to answer.

[Metalject]

One more thing, keep in mind there's no guarantee a SERM will protect you like an AI. It's not going to have a big affect on water retention. You'll really need to control this through your diet and your total stack...you may have to make adjustments. Further, depending on your own genetic response, some guys will still get gyno symptoms with a SERM. In this case, you can add the AI back in if needed. It's really hard to predict but by no means is an AI always necessary like many tend to believe.

On the cholesterol, while a SERM should give you some improvements, make sure your diet is rich in omega fatty acids and overall cholesterol friendly foods. This will help. Plenty of cardiovascular activity can also help a good bit. These three things together should make a good difference.

Last thing, again total doses of your steroids will make a difference, but so does genetics. Recall the NEJM study on testosterone enanthate....20men given Test-E at 600mg/wk for 10-12wks...can't remember off hand if it was 10 or 12. Anyway, no one got gyno, and no one had any serious health issues...a few had slight reductions in HDL.

Water retention: The most water I ever gained was on the following cycle and I was using an AI:

Test 75gmg/wk
Dbol 30mg/ed
Deca 400mg/wk
My diet sucked and I looked like it sucked.

This cycle was without an AI:

Test-E: 1,750mg/wk
Tren-a: 700mg/wk
Dbol: 50mg/ed
Winny: 50mg/ed
Water retention was very minimal and no AI. For the record, this was not a normal cycle for me but something I tried as an experiment once.

Overall point, individual response is one of the biggest factors along with food intake and lifestyle choices.

[warmouth]

Nice information Metalject. It is a no brainer as to wether or not a pound or 2 lost vs hoddid lipid values. This is great stuff! I mean, back in the day, no one seemed to use SERMS or AIs, then nolva hit the scene and people started using it while "on". Then of course, AIs made their appearance for controlling estrogen related sides. All of this is good stuff!

[jimmyinkedup]

On Friday, I spoke with one of the larger Pharma companies that manufacturers two of the AIs discussed on the forum. The medical director wasn't aware of any impact in lipid values or any differential effects across AIs on lipids. I have a call with the VP of OPs next week for a further discussion.

There has also been a question about gender differences between AIs - i.e. are some more effective in men then others. The medical director wasn't aware of any published data since these compounds were developed to treat breast cancer in women and the application to males is more of an off label use. Again, the VP of ops may have more insight or may provide some published data if it exists.

Upjohn/Pharmacia clinical trials on aromasin (exemestane) were conducted on both men and women. I actually came across the fda application online. Ill see if i can find it again.
Scary that a medical director a Pharma company cant make the correlation between e2 and lipid profile..

[jimmyinkedup]

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsa...opharmr_P1.pdf
Page 24 mentiones diff observed between men and women (or the lack therof)

[< <Samson> >]

How long after use can your cholesterol be extremely high? My diet runs on extreme cholesterol yet pretty low fat. I ran a Ai for a while then stopped while on Enan and prop for 3 months, five months ago.

[MuscleInk]

Upjohn/Pharmacia clinical trials on aromasin (exemestane) were conducted on both men and women. I actually came across the fda application online. Ill see if i can find it again.
Scary that a medical director a Pharma company cant make the correlation between e2 and lipid profile..

That would be great Jimmy! Thanks.

Actually, while it is disappointing, the reality is, big Pharma is about bottom lines. Terrible thing to say but an unfortunate reality. With the cost of bringing new drugs to market topping $1.8B, Pharma companies look to maximize profits for each compound before patent lives expire and often aren't as concerned with off label applications an the proper efficacy/safety studies if the market cap is small.

[warmouth]

How long after use can your cholesterol be extremely high? My diet runs on extreme cholesterol yet pretty low fat. I ran a Ai for a while then stopped while on Enan and prop for 3 months, five months ago.

Samson, I would just go in and get it checked. You can buy the choloesterol check for at home use at any pharmacy. It would be worth having a look. I am curious as to what alot of users lipids are both on and off. If you get one of the kits, let us know.

[< <Samson> >]

I already got the test done, I need to get my results next week.

[warmouth]

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsa...opharmr_P1.pdf
Page 24 mentiones diff observed between men and women (or the lack therof)

Wow. It would seem, based on the article itself, that extremestane drastically raises lipids. That is, if I didnt miss anything. That is the best article I have read yet. All I can seem to find is "fluff". Thanks for the input Jimmy!

[MuscleInk]

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsa...opharmr_P1.pdf
Page 24 mentiones diff observed between men and women (or the lack therof)

Excellent! Thanks Jimmy. I'm going to give this a thorough read!!!!!

[MuscleInk]

Samson, I would just go in and get it checked. You can buy the choloesterol check for at home use at any pharmacy. It would be worth having a look. I am curious as to what alot of users lipids are both on and off. If you get one of the kits, let us know.

Unless they've improved them recently, the accuracy of home cholesterol test kits varies considerably, and the results don't offer a complete picture of your risk of developing heart disease. Many home cholesterol test kits measure only total cholesterol; a few also measure HDL, LDL, and triglycerides. The variability may be even greater with home cholesterol test kits if you're not fasting when you take the test, or if you don't precisely follow the directions on the packaging.

[jimmyinkedup]

I just posted on this in the trt forum. I think the benefit to exemestane as far as lipid values and igf are direc tly related to estrogen (no shock there). While often it is stated that exemestane is "stronger" than anastrozole ..the fact is , as shown in this study ( http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/12/5951.full ) even at doses of 50mg/day , while e2 was drastically reduced..it was still at the low end of normal clinical range. My point being I think its easier to "crush" e2 levels with anastrozole than with exemestane. I am pretty thoroughly convinced all the igf / lipid effects of ai's are related to their effect as far as mediating e2. E2 play a critical role in lipid values and also a key role in igf production in the liver. What I find more interesting is that serm like tamoxifen actually decreases igf...but thats another thread/topic.

[warmouth]

I just posted on this in the trt forum. I think the benefit to exemestane as far as lipid values and igf are direc tly related to estrogen (no shock there). While often it is stated that exemestane is "stronger" than anastrozole ..the fact is , as shown in this study ( http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/12/5951.full ) even at doses of 50mg/day , while e2 was drastically reduced..it was still at the low end of normal clinical range. My point being I think its easier to "crush" e2 levels with anastrozole than with exemestane. I am pretty thoroughly convinced all the igf / lipid effects of ai's are related to their effect as far as mediating e2. E2 play a critical role in lipid values and also a key role in igf production in the liver. What I find more interesting is that serm like tamoxifen actually decreases igf...but thats another thread/topic.

Somy BW results could have had something to do with liquidex? And are you saying that "crushing" E2 helps lipids or harms them? Is the correlation between estrogen and lipids that estrogen induces raised levels or reduces? The artice is amazing, I am just having a hard time taking it all in. I have read it several times.