How do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

[Sworder]

IMHO if you use steroids before your HPTA isnt full developed and your natural test isnt maatured or runnng at peak levels you have more of a chance of causing yourself problems ie low test and not fully recovering or reaching your natural test peak. I think there are more who dont fully recover than more who do. If you think different fine just give your advice to the OP but from my experience and the endo's ive spoken to its clear its a huge problem and is causing serious issues with the younger bodybuilders.

@Marcus3000 I have been researching diligently but I can not find a good definition on HPTA maturation. Could you please clarify this for me? What does maturation have to do with function? What does maturation have to do with restoration of HPTA function post AAS cycle? I guess these questions are more rhetorical than anything but if you chose to answer please stay on topic.

@ Atomini how would "wear-and-tear" have an effect on the HPTA? If we agree on the notion that AAS cause the HPTA to fail earlier. Then what damage are you doing to the HPTA? Is it the actual atrophy which is causing it or do you believe it is from "overstimulation" of the Hypo when it is trying to sense the androgen levels? I believe the latter to be not true and rather foolish as the hypo won't suffer damage from that but I am just throwing out options.. Also, if you could make sure to answer this one please. Since genetics are expressed through hormones, do you think we are changing the expression of genetics by using AAS? To further clarify, if your genes say your should have a certain amount of tT and you supply with exogenous; do you think that this will have an effect on future gene expression?

[AD]

Just because there is a possibility of recovery dose not take the place of preventing them from using it in the first place. Like I said I don't hand out death sentences to people like most do around here. And im not going to contribute to fear mongering. Yes its possible to recover.

Does drinking Alchohol before your legal make it ok? No.
Does taking steroids before 25 beause you can make it ok? No

Just because it is possible to recover does not make everything ok, your heath can still be effected, high BPH, PSA, BP, hairloss acne Gyno, and everything else.

Are these kids going to ruin themselves for life off a bad cycle, it's on an individual basis and I think with Anything care must be taking before, during and after cycle to ensure a proper recovery.

I stand firm with my opinion, no they should no use them, but if they are determined to, you or me ain't gonna do a damn thing to change the vast majoritys mind. I'll be here to tell them the pros and cons and help with in whatever decision they make. I'm not going to toss kids to the wind because they make a wrong decision. I'll help them avoid as much damage as I can along the way and hope to give them a speedy recovery, and if I can stop a few along the way from using them more power to them.

Best.

ok. now i understand. i think we are in agreement. there are health risks involved.

cheers bro

[Atomini]

@Marcus3000 I have been researching diligently but I can not find a good definition on HPTA maturation. Could you please clarify this for me? What does maturation have to do with function? What does maturation have to do with restoration of HPTA function post AAS cycle? I guess these questions are more rhetorical than anything but if you chose to answer please stay on topic.

@ Atomini how would "wear-and-tear" have an effect on the HPTA? If we agree on the notion that AAS cause the HPTA to fail earlier. Then what damage are you doing to the HPTA? Is it the actual atrophy which is causing it or do you believe it is from "overstimulation" of the Hypo when it is trying to sense the androgen levels? I believe the latter to be not true and rather foolish as the hypo won't suffer damage from that but I am just throwing out options.. Also, if you could make sure to answer this one please. Since genetics are expressed through hormones, do you think we are changing the expression of genetics by using AAS? To further clarify, if your genes say your should have a certain amount of tT and you supply with exogenous; do you think that this will have an effect on future gene expression?

My PRIMARY definition of wear and tear is just simple aging and operation of these cells. You drive a car couple hundred thousand miles, and it wears down over time from simple use. Same thing with the human body. And at times, certain things can speed up wear and tear. I do believe damage and wear and tear can be further caused by atrophy of the leydig cells, for example, when using exogenous androgens. This is of course most of the time an occurance with those who aren't cycling properly or do not follow adequate PCT guidelines. HOWEVER, with that being said... I do know a couple of people for whom a cycle seemed to have a 're-set' effect on their HPTA. Bloodwork prior to their first ever cycle dictated T levels on the low end of normal. After going through a 10 week cycle, and a 4 week PCT, bloodwork was taken (2 months after PCT I would just like to clarify), and their T levels were in the mid-high end of normal. These are two personally known cases, but if you search, you will find this incidence of 're-setting' certain aspects of the endocrine system through the brief use of an exogenous source is actually well documented in the medical field. I remember being shown a study in one of my courses whereby a certain number of pubscent and pre-pubescent children were having issues with endogenous production of HGH. They were administered exogenous HGH (and it was some insanely high dose) for 2-4 weeks. After halting the brief administration, these children's endogenous HGH production was in full swing and in normal ranges. I will try to dig back and find the study, because its actually extremely interesting.

This is why I don't believe as much as many other people here, that doing cycles necessarily destroys, damages or downregulates HPTA function. I do believe that if cycles are kept short and proper PCT guidelines (and time off cycle) are properly adhered to, that it may be actually beneficial to some people's HPTA in keeping its function 'lively'. This would be something interesting for the medical field to look into even further.

Answer to your question regarding genes expressed through hormones: I don't think we're changing our genetic expression by using AAS. The purpose of all hormones is to simply bind to receptor sites that then signal the expression of genes in the cell, which then engage cellular function and processes (in the case of muscle cells, this means growth of myosin and actin protein filaments, or in the case of leydig cells it means the production of testosterone ). These genes that are expressed are not changed. Essentially, these genes are the blueprints for the construction of proteins (or other substances a cell may construct). The anabolic steroid is like the foreman that comes along and says to the cell "hey, i'm giving you the go-ahead to begin construction" and pulls out the blueprint so that the workers can make it all happen. The blueprint is never changed. Now, lets say the scenario is this: suddenly over the next 40,000 years ALL humans on the planet begin cycling AAS (a wishful thought, I know). Over time, might this affect our evolution in a certain way that would change gene expression related to AAS or even other unknown future changes in our genes that govern all these processes? Yes, of course. But then we're getting into the topic of evolution and genetic mutations.

[Phased]

I would just like to point out that Atomini and Sworder are extremely on point and both bring so much passion to this forum and this debate. I'm really proud of you guys. Keep it up.
Best

[AD]

My PRIMARY definition of wear and tear is just simple aging and operation of these cells. You drive a car couple hundred thousand miles, and it wears down over time from simple use. Same thing with the human body. And at times, certain things can speed up wear and tear. I do believe damage and wear and tear can be further caused by atrophy of the leydig cells, for example, when using exogenous androgens. This is of course most of the time an occurance with those who aren't cycling properly or do not follow adequate PCT guidelines. HOWEVER, with that being said... I do know a couple of people for whom a cycle seemed to have a 're-set' effect on their HPTA. Bloodwork prior to their first ever cycle dictated T levels on the low end of normal. After going through a 10 week cycle, and a 4 week PCT, bloodwork was taken (2 months after PCT I would just like to clarify), and their T levels were in the mid-high end of normal. These are two personally known cases, but if you search, you will find this incidence of 're-setting' certain aspects of the endocrine system through the brief use of an exogenous source is actually well documented in the medical field. I remember being shown a study in one of my courses whereby a certain number of pubscent and pre-pubescent children were having issues with endogenous production of HGH. They were administered exogenous HGH (and it was some insanely high dose) for 2-4 weeks. After halting the brief administration, these children's endogenous HGH production was in full swing and in normal ranges. I will try to dig back and find the study, because its actually extremely interesting.

do you think this can be explained by the pct resetting the system? or do you think it was the cycle that reset the system?

[Atomini]

do you think this can be explained by the pct resetting the system? or do you think it was the cycle that reset the system?

Officially, I have no clue. I wish that a full-out clinical study could be performed in a re-creation of these situations so we could find out exactly why this might be. If I had to take a guess, though, I would say it would likely be both that would be responsible for the re-set. One without the other may not end up with the same result. But I do think it's the combination of the shut down with the bumpstart given by PCT meds. In general, it's not unlike if/when your computer starts acting all screwy on you, and you decide to reboot it and then it is suddenly working fine again.

That is IF that is what's happening in these situations.

[Sworder]

You are aware of the fact that AAS shuts down the HPTA so if your theory would be correct then the HPTA should work better as it hasn't been used. If you are driving a car a lot that is fine, but taking AAS = putting the car in the garage. Maybe need to jump start it but other than that it should be running smoothly.

The hGH doesn't belong to the HPTA so it wouldn't be relevant. Yes, you can use it to compare the re-sensitizing of the cells but other than that and functionally it doesn't really work for the HPTA.

The HPTA has been jump-started in similar fashions though. Mainly a hCG blast to try to stimulate the leydigs to re-sensitize, clomid/nolva is used to try to jump-start the pit. There is no benefit to suppress the Hypo/Pit and I find it incredibly "bold" to say that cycling maintains HPTA function if proper PCT and time off is adhered to. If we would take a poll here I believe most of the guys over the age of 30 to be on TRT.

If you believe genes to predetermine the levels of hormones why would PCT change any of that? Is PCT only used to "jump-start" or do you think the body may find stasis without? PCT for a lot of guys is used just so that the recovery process is faster. The discussion of hCG can be made as well, we have it to help stimulate the leydigs so they are more responsive to LH. But what about the sertoli cells? Why aren't more people infertile as a result of not stimulating sertoli cells? I am not discussing the notion that PCT isn't needed I am wondering how PCT would fit in congruence with your theory.

[Sworder]

My theory to the HPTA/why levels start to decline:

First which may be obvious, something wrong with the actual Hypo/Pit/Leydig cells. This one is obvious and won't be covered.

The other thing which seems to be supported by data I have seen. Is that the more exposure to androgens the more suppressed the HPTA will be sooner. This is seen in African-American males as they have the highest testosterone levels and also the higher 5alpha reductase enzymes(this is the enzyme used to convert testosterone to the more potent androgen DHT). Although, their testosterone levels are also the lowest as age progresses. I don't believe there is a predetermined level which is assumed. I believe when AAS are introduced we are skewing this number grossly in that case. Anyway, this information and also the fact that AAS accelerates HPTA failure makes it logical to me that when the body is exposed to more androgens, the endogenous testosterone comes to a halt.

This sparks another issue then, how would the body "keep" track of how much androgens are circulated? Gets me to start thinking of the l prostate. I think this is the epicenter of "keeping" track. How this "measurement" is kept track of may be in prostate hypertrophy, honestly I have no clue! But I find the notion to make sense somehow.

The observation I have made and feel free to refute if you wish and I have not been able to explain in other way but it seems true that the more androgens you are exposed to the sooner your HPTA will fail.

My thoughts on PCT as my previous post may imply I don't feel it is useful: PCT will help you recover quicker. PCT may offer the needed jump-start the HPTA needs. The body may return to stasis without PCT chems but it's a godsend crutch for your HPTA.

I wanted to share my theory so it doesn't seem like I am just nay-saying

[marcus300]

@Marcus3000 I have been researching diligently but I can not find a good definition on HPTA maturation. Could you please clarify this for me? What does maturation have to do with function? What does maturation have to do with restoration of HPTA function post AAS cycle? I guess these questions are more rhetorical than anything but if you chose to answer please stay on topic.

What I mean by your testosterone and HPTA being fully developed and matured is that its fully developed and running at peak, its finished maturing and stop growing and developing, I can't put it simpler than that..

If it doesn't fully mature which can happen by shutting it down by using AAS it can effect the future function of the HPTA and never reach peak performance. Of course it may still function but it may not function at the same levels previously or the same levels what it should reach to in the future at full development. If you shutting down the HPTA and introducing hormones what the body is still developing and balancing then this can have a huge impact on restoration of the HPTA and the developing hormones. In some cases it can never fully reach the natural peak and many have symptoms of low testosterone . On the other hand some recover fine and never have a problem with their test levels but from personal experience and the people ive worked with and also the endo's 'Ive seen and spoken to this is a huge problem especially in the UK, infact my Endo told me its out of control and the referrals are thick and fast for teenagers having issues with low test.



I would also say alot of the younger guys lie about recovery because of the embarrassment of the symptoms, Ive had personal experience with this with a few younger guys Ive known over the years, what many do is simply go back on cycle to feel normal again and never get treatment for low test or even try and get fully recover from the HPTA.


Your not going to get one answer what is 100% correct, your not going to find one stupid study detailing this either because we are all iindividuals what respond and recover differently, of course we can use the correct precaution during the cycle and post cycle but there are still a hell of alot of complaints and damage occurring with teenagers etc using AAS. You'll get a lot of guy stating they used young and never had a problem (many lie though) and many others stating they have low test due to cycling to young. Now I am guessing here but you must be in your low 20's because you have the mind set of a younger bodybuilder who hasn't seen that much damage and your probably still using steroids anyway but in time and as the years pass by your mind set will change because of what you read and see trust me on that one.


Ive just done a quick search which took me 5 mins and just a few threads from our younger bodybuilders having issues with their test levels after the first cycle etc, there are some variations but more or less teenagers early 20's.



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ny-years-later...



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ull-of-regrets



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...at-18...-I-did.





http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...rmanent-damage



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...239-New-to-TRT



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-2-years-later.



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...seeking-advice.





http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-and-need-help!!!



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...after-4-months



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-taking-Clomid

[Metalject]

There are always risks regardless of your age. Personally, I take a very pro steroid stance...not an anti-steroid guy, but the idea that being 25yrs old or older is going to provide you some magical protection is misguided. You can cycle by all the standard "responsive bro protocols" but there can still be issues. You may very well still end up with low testosterone due to use once you get a little older. Of course, you may very well end up with it regardless of steroid use but in this case, you may speed it up. You also present the risk of cardiovascular damage in the long term despite supplementing responsibly. Can you take preventive measures? Absolutely, things like cholesterol can be controlled on cycle but it's misguided to assume there's a guarantee.

When it comes to the young guy, in some ways this is a tough topic for me. If a 23 or 24yr old man wants to use steroids and is generally a healthy individual, I'm not going to tell him he needs to wait until he's 25. If he's under 23, the situation can change but the uniqueness of his situation might change the answer. You take a 18-20yr old guy, sure, the damage to the HPTA may very well be severe...then again it may not but the risk I would think would be a little higher at this age compared to a few years down the line. At the same time there is something important to remember......

....if an individual is an adult and granted the basic rights and responsibilities of an adult, he should be free to make his own decision. You can take the 21yr old guy and warn him of the potential problems and tell him he's SOL when it comes to getting help from you, or you can guide him the best you can so that he reaches his goals in the safest and most efficient way possible. If he's going to use steroids no matter what and we're going to hold to liberty being a right held by all men, the latter is the only reasonable approach.

[Sworder]

What I mean by your testosterone and HPTA being fully developed and matured is that its fully developed and running at peak, its finished maturing and stop growing and developing, I can't put it simpler than that..

Ok, as you may suspect I will have to respectfully disagree. HPTA "maturation" in regards to being fully developed, this is actually achieved very early. During puberty is when the testicles starts and completes developing. In all honesty, I can't find any evidence that this may be a problem even if you would halt development at this stage. What brings me to think about this is that sometimes the testicles aren't descended properly. Medically we can fix this by supplying exogenous hormones to drop the testicle. What makes these two things correlate is that although "maturation" or "development" of the testicles is halted(as in AAS use) the HPTA can still function properly. So this leads to the question, if a male whose HPTA "maturation" has been halted by improper function and is later resumed to develop fully can have a properly functioning HPTA. Why can't an AAS induced halt of development during puberty result in proper function when exogenous hormones are removed? Honestly, the main concern would be to close growth plates with too much androgens. It will be in your genes as Atomini & Asiandude have theorized what your internal "meter" is set at. Unless you believe that AAS damages the HPTA somehow then the whole maturation theory is Bullshit IMO!

Yes, I agree with your endo that it is a sensitive system as in it will recognize hormones at a very sensitive level and shutdown endogenous production swiftly. Is it "sensitive" in the fact that you can't beat the living shit out of it with AAS use? Nope, because I have already said. You are not stimulating the Leydigs nor the pituitary/hypo to release anything. You are actually taking a break from your own system. This is contradicting my theory though as I think the body recognizes how much androgens have been circulating. I can't think of any other way why AAS induced hypogonadism would happen. Since you aren't stressing your HPTA system. You are taxing all other systems though by increasing androgens but the HPTA is shutdown(taking a break). I apologize for being blunt and crude but honestly I think it is some scare tactic bullcrap that your endo is spewing as he has no evidence to prove this. The growth plates will close with too much androgens present, there is studies on this. But theorizing on something which lacks any support and no correlating situations is blasphemy and I will call it as I smell it. I gave you an example of how halting HPTA development will not result in abnormal activity later on, this is proven.

For clarification: I am not saying that people under 25 are exempt from HPTA failure. I am saying that if there was a difference I would theorize that they would be better off and have an easier time to recover. Again, I do not advocate anybody to touch AAS unless they are willing to sacrifice their HPTA. Anybody below 23-25 shouldn't use AAS because don't have the mature enough mind nor a comprehensive view on reality.

[Brohim]

The HPTA is more resilient at a younger age from what the bros say!!


Asiandude do you mind furthering your theory on the thermostat HPTA? What do you think happens to decrease levels after cycles? How does the body keep track with age? Do you alter "hormonal age" with steroids?

I talked to a Doctor (Endo) and he said the same thing - that younger guy's HPTA recover faster

[Sworder]

I talked to a Doctor (Endo) and he said the same thing - that younger guy's HPTA recover faster

Yes, this is a general consensus among many medical doctors and "bros" based on observations so if somebody states otherwise I would like a clear and logical explanation.

[AD]

i believe the system works like a thermostat. there is a set point at which your test level will return to whenever its too high or too low. when the HPTA is immature, this set point is not fixed yet, and cycling now may confuse the HPTA enough to wrongly set itself at a very low level. and this can be permanent.

The max level of natty test is probably preprogramed in your genes but how your body detects fluctuations must be through some chemoreceptors. Before such receptors are mature, blasting it with 10x the usual circulating test can easily wipe them out. Thats how your genetic potential will never be reached. You body will permanently assume that it already has 10x the amount of test it actually need

[Sworder]

The max level of natty test is probably preprogramed in your genes but how your body detects fluctuations must be through some chemoreceptors. Before such receptors are mature, blasting it with 10x the usual circulating test can easily wipe them out. Thats how your genetic potential will never be reached. You body will permanently assume that it already has 10x the amount of test it actually need

Chemoreceptors? receptor maturation? Respectfully, what are you talking about? I have actually heard the theory that androgen receptor sensitivity will never return but this theory has been tossed in the garbage bin a long time ago. The body won't permanently assume that it has x10 amount of test, the word metabolize comes to mind. If the receptor isn't occupied it isn't occupied simple.

[AD]

You have never heard of chemoreceptors?

[AD]

Chemoreceptors? receptor maturation? Respectfully, what are you talking about? I have actually heard the theory that androgen receptor sensitivity will never return but this theory has been tossed in the garbage bin a long time ago. The body won't permanently assume that it has x10 amount of test, the word metabolize comes to mind. If the receptor isn't occupied it isn't occupied simple.

This is no longer a discussion. Its propaganda.

[frank13]

Ive no idea what your going on about now!

IMHO if you use steroids before your HPTA isnt full developed and your natural test isnt maatured or runnng at peak levels you have more of a chance of causing yourself problems ie low test and not fully recovering or reaching your natural test peak. I think there are more who dont fully recover than more who do. If you think different fine just give your advice to the OP but from my experience and the endo's ive spoken to its clear its a huge problem and is causing serious issues with the younger bodybuilders.

^^^^very well said

[Sworder]

This is no longer a discussion. Its propaganda.

Lol, what chemorecptors? In the Hypothalamus? Being too general is like Marcus300's endo. Be specific and explain yourself. Or review my 2-3 posts and argue those to the best of your knowledge. Repeating the same thing everybody else has been saying is not going to change my mind and it is still not making sense.

Edit: It has been propaganda from the get-go with unfounded accusations that the HPTA needs to grow to the age of 25 before AAS is touched. It doesn't make sense and I have shown an example of where halting the HPTA doesn't affect function later on in life. The only thing that is perpetuating the propaganda is lack of knowledge of what is said. I have presented my refutations and would like them argued not for somebody to keep on repeating the same propaganda.

Edit #2: The thing that really gets under my skin is the parroting going on about "underdeveloped HPTA" when there hasn't been anything to substantiate these grounds other than generalizations that don't even make sense. Yes, the HPTA will fail sooner or later but just because a cycle is done pre-25 doesn't mean it will and a lot of educated people believe this to be untrue. The HPTA will recover faster when you are young..

[Brohim]

Lol, what chemorecptors? In the Hypothalamus? Being too general is like Marcus300's endo. Be specific and explain yourself. Or review my 2-3 posts and argue those to the best of your knowledge. Repeating the same thing everybody else has been saying is not going to change my mind and it is still not making sense.

Edit: It has been propaganda from the get-go with unfounded accusations that the HPTA needs to grow to the age of 25 before AAS is touched. It doesn't make sense and I have shown an example of where halting the HPTA doesn't affect function later on in life. The only thing that is perpetuating the propaganda is lack of knowledge of what is said. I have presented my refutations and would like them argued not for somebody to keep on repeating the same propaganda.

Edit #2: The thing that really gets under my skin is the parroting going on about "underdeveloped HPTA" when there hasn't been anything to substantiate these grounds other than generalizations that don't even make sense. Yes, the HPTA will fail sooner or later but just because a cycle is done pre-25 doesn't mean it will and a lot of educated people believe this to be untrue. The HPTA will recover faster when you are young..

The male brain is not fully developed until around 24. So we can go with that. Sure the HPTA will probably recover just fine but most young men don't have the correct knowledge and coping skills it takes to run an AAS cycle. Look at Marcus threads he cited. Half those boys went willy nilly with AAS, no PCT and some even repeated same half ass cycle and messed themselves up. If they had the proper knowledge they might be ok.

So even though they might be ready physiologically they still fail because they don't do things right.

[Sworder]

The male brain is not fully developed until around 24. So we can go with that. Sure the HPTA will probably recover just fine but most young men don't have the correct knowledge and coping skills it takes to run an AAS cycle. Look at Marcus threads he cited. Half those boys went willy nilly with AAS, no PCT and some even repeated same half ass cycle and messed themselves up. If they had the proper knowledge they might be ok.
So even though they might be ready physiologically they still fail because they don't do things right.

Agreed!

[Phased]

In my experience ive never seen a friend or person recover fully over the age of 30, yet the dozen or so people i know between the age of 19 and 27 recover very well every time...

However i don't believe most 18 to 25 year olds are mentally ready to cycle, just my thoughts...

This could go on forever on both sides, but I think the simplest answer was missed.
Thank you Matt,
Best

[Sworder]

Another great example of why "HPTA maturation" to age 25 is invalid, I was thinking about this one at the gym. But females do NOT have to wait until 25 before they start playing with their HPGA.. Why would men? Now please let's not continue this bad habit of reading my posts and not comprehending the meaning and continuing on repeating the same thing. I just wanted to add this weapon to the arsenal.

[marcus300]

Ok, as you may suspect I will have to respectfully disagree. HPTA "maturation" in regards to being fully developed, this is actually achieved very early. During puberty is when the testicles starts and completes developing. In all honesty, I can't find any evidence that this may be a problem even if you would halt development at this stage. What brings me to think about this is that sometimes the testicles aren't descended properly. Medically we can fix this by supplying exogenous hormones to drop the testicle. What makes these two things correlate is that although "maturation" or "development" of the testicles is halted(as in AAS use) the HPTA can still function properly. So this leads to the question, if a male whose HPTA "maturation" has been halted by improper function and is later resumed to develop fully can have a properly functioning HPTA. Why can't an AAS induced halt of development during puberty result in proper function when exogenous hormones are removed? Honestly, the main concern would be to close growth plates with too much androgens. It will be in your genes as Atomini & Asiandude have theorized what your internal "meter" is set at. Unless you believe that AAS damages the HPTA somehow then the whole maturation theory is Bullshit IMO!

Yes, I agree with your endo that it is a sensitive system as in it will recognize hormones at a very sensitive level and shutdown endogenous production swiftly. Is it "sensitive" in the fact that you can't beat the living shit out of it with AAS use? Nope, because I have already said. You are not stimulating the Leydigs nor the pituitary/hypo to release anything. You are actually taking a break from your own system. This is contradicting my theory though as I think the body recognizes how much androgens have been circulating. I can't think of any other way why AAS induced hypogonadism would happen. Since you aren't stressing your HPTA system. You are taxing all other systems though by increasing androgens but the HPTA is shutdown(taking a break). I apologize for being blunt and crude but honestly I think it is some scare tactic bullcrap that your endo is spewing as he has no evidence to prove this. The growth plates will close with too much androgens present, there is studies on this. But theorizing on something which lacks any support and no correlating situations is blasphemy and I will call it as I smell it. I gave you an example of how halting HPTA development will not result in abnormal activity later on, this is proven.

For clarification: I am not saying that people under 25 are exempt from HPTA failure. I am saying that if there was a difference I would theorize that they would be better off and have an easier time to recover. Again, I do not advocate anybody to touch AAS unless they are willing to sacrifice their HPTA. Anybody below 23-25 shouldn't use AAS because don't have the mature enough mind nor a comprehensive view on reality.

You seem to confuse yourself constantly you agree then disagree about the same thing over and over again then go off on a tangent about something whats not even irrelevant lol.

My Endo specializes in sports related hormone complaints and is very high up in the field so I would take alot more what he tells me than some 25yrs kid who is obsessed with studies and text books who has zero experience, thats you by the way if you can't recognize yourself. He has seen that many steroid ppatientshe can ddiagnosewhere the problems and issues come from, far more than you. Also Ive been using steroids longer than you have been alive so Ive seen alot more, dealt with alot more and read far more than you could ever understand on the subject so thats why when I see your post it makes me smile. Let me tell you something about studies and steroids, there are so many studies out there and for every study there are usually others ones contradicting the results. Also usually studies aren't done on humans or even not at the same dosages what us bodybuilders use so in many cases they are total garbage......Now before you start putting words in my mouth which you always seem to do to back up your stupid claims, dont its silly lol.



You also have to take your binkers off to experience and listen to it and read it and understand it before disregarding it. When you get alot of guys,bodybuilders and experienced medical professionals who have been using and dealt alot more than you could ever do you have to sit back and listen. Weather that goes against studies or not you have to take bodybuilders experience into consideration first because these are the guys who are using steroids at the dosages we are all debating about, not some mouse or sheep taking 1mg weekly whats suddenly sprouted a 5th leg.

Yes of course many teens etc do recover well without any issues but there are far more who don't and many who say they have recovered who lie because of the embarrassment because Ive seen first hand and had that many pms over the yrs stating so. So you can't just disregard it you have to take it all in but I understand how you think because I was once 25 yrs old who didn't listen or understand about experience and just focused on books and studies but its a huge mistake and in time you will know this.


It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree and move on best of luck to you for the future

[Sworder]

@Marcus300 I have not claimed to be more experienced than anybody nor do I claim to have more knowledge than a medical professional. If you wish to explain something to me or further the discussion that is fine I am all ears. I have presented my case and the only thing you and some others is repeat the same thing over and over. This is not debate, discussion nor does it make anybody the wiser. If you compose an intelligent response to why you think it is a certain way please do so. Otherwise please refute my statements and why they are false. The fact that you are not means that you can not and constantly repeat and repeat. Sorry, I will not listen to something which doesn't 1: Make sense, the opposite is logical though as I have shown. 2: There is no empirical data to support it. I have never been a lemming nor will I start. My own mind is intelligent to make decisions for me, by the way I do love studies

Yes, sorry I love accurate information and I will always refute something which I feel is false. The inability to explain something usually leads to frustration and attacking the other person's character. A woman's menstrual cycle is halted by BC and their HPGA is not affected. Had there been a problem with the HPGA not reaching maturation I am sure the doctors wouldn't prescribe it. The undescended testicle is my other example.

Yes sure, we can agree to disagree or try to understand eachother. But the common thing here is reading through my posts without comprehension then just disregarding it. I have provided observable examples and you have consistently just repeated the same general statement and "parroting" has followed.

[marcus300]

I can't keep saying the same old thing because you fail to take it in which is fine it isnt a problem

Maybe we can talk further about this is in 10years time maybe you will have a different view on things,


best of luck

[Sworder]

I am taking it in, but there are others who have 10 years on me and have said the same things. Also, I am not the kind of person to just skim through somebody's post without comprehension. I read and re-read if needed, so I do understand what you are saying. You are still by-passing my two examples which will still be true 10 years from now LMAO. I understand you don't want to continue the "discussion" as you have been stating the same thing with each response. Have a good night!

[marcus300]

You keep reading your studies my friend lol

good night

[Sworder]

Yes, I will keep on relying on observable and proven data and not futile projections of immature and unsubstantiated proclamations. Thank you sir, I will respectfully take my leave and call it a night.

[marcus300]

Remember we are talking about bodybuilders using the amounts we use for cycling lol not some sheep, mouse or female......You'll learn one day when you get older sweet dreams

Now lets leave the thread alone and not destroy it, we dont agree which is fine all the best

[Capebuffalo]

Wow the new guys seem to be worth every dime.

Marcus has been here a long time and has practical knowledge a little respect would be nice.
Opinions aside.

[marcus300]

Wow the new guys seem to be worth every dime.

Marcus has been here a long time and has practical knowledge a little respect would be nice.
Opinions aside.

Seen them come and go before, he's only a young kid obsessed with studies on women,mice,pigs and sheep doesnt fully grasp all the threads what have been posted here over the yrs from teens crying about low test etc. He'll learn and will have a different out look on things as he gets older trust I did lol.

Anyway won't be reading anymore of his posts unless I need some help with a mouse I have who's got Hypogonadism

Let him be Capebuffalo dont set him off again,

[The Kernal]

Seen them come and go before, he's only a young kid obsessed with studies on women,mice,pigs and sheep doesnt fully grasp all the threads what have been posted here over the yrs from teens crying about low test etc. He'll learn and will have a different out look on things as he gets older trust I did lol.

Anyway won't be reading anymore of his posts unless I need some help with a mouse I have who's got Hypogonadism

Let him be Capebuffalo dont set him off again,

I've got to be honest. I'm glad you guys had that argument. I actually learn't alot from it! I'm 20y/o and looking at doing a cycle in the near future, but just because Sworder says that there isn't enough evidence to say that AAS at a young age isn't detrimental - there also isn't enough evidence to say that doing AAS at a young age is safe. Its a risk!

Three of the greatest skills to have when it comes to things like AAS is
1. Maturity
2. Research
3. Experience

End thread

[jimmyinkedup]

there isn't enough evidence to say that AAS at a young age isn't detrimental - there also isn't enough evidence to say that doing AAS at a young safe. Its a risk!

^^ Excellent Point.

I dont know when the HTPA is fully "developed" ..I do know that our natural testosterone production levels peak at age 25.
It seems to me shutting that system down prior to that isnt very prudent.
The funny thing is , just as its said it cant be proved its bad to cycle under 25 , it sure cant be proved its ok either. The ypoung "recover better"??? We have no idea if the young recover at all because we have no ida what their natural test production would have peaked at or what their baseline test levels would be.
Its cost / benefits to me.
Then the emotional maturity aspect.
I just cant see where its a good , well thought out , prudent decision...even just based on the unknown.
Thats just my opinion.

[The Kernal]

^^ Excellent Point.

I dont know when the HTPA is fully "developed" ..I do know that our natural testosterone production levels peak at age 25.
It seems to me shutting that system down prior to that isnt very prudent.
The funny thing is , just as its said it cant be proved its bad to cycle under 25 , it sure cant be proved its ok either. The ypoung "recover better"??? We have no idea if the young recover at all because we have no ida what their natural test production would have peaked at or what their baseline test levels would be.
Its cost / benefits to me.
Then the emotional maturity aspect.
I just cant see where its a good , well thought out , prudent decision...even just based on the unknown.
Thats just my opinion.

Ty mate. Agreed with you aswell.

Heck, it's life - you face decisions everyday (this may be getting a little of track, but what the hell) that could possibly change the rest of your life.. Ie - driving to work is taking a risk. The fortunate thing is, when it comes to AAS, the risks can be discussed and analysed before diving in. (this forum for example)

I'm happy with sitting here and reading/taking all the info in that I can, then when everything seems to be planned, and the time feels right - I will make my move.

[Misery13]

Wow the new guys seem to be worth every dime.

Marcus has been here a long time and has practical knowledge a little respect would be nice.
Opinions aside.

I agree. I also don't understand how the 2 new kids on the block are already considered knowledgeable members already.....

[pjliftsalot]

I agree. I also don't understand how the 2 new kids on the block are already considered knowledgeable members already.....

I dont understand the whole knowledgeable member thing so whatever, but the respect thing is messed up. Marcus has obviously spent a lot of time and effort here , I'd say he has earned and deserves appropriate respect.

[Wazz]

Ok, long but beneficial read!

Is anyone at this time doing active research into this for study (or as a hobby collecting stats). The reason I ask is that I'm still about 3 months away from my 1st cycle & the Doc will be invovled. I will most certainly be going with pre-cycle blood work & post-cycle (2 month) Blood work to see the effect of just Test E. One Doc is on board & will support, however gaining the relationship with the second Doc will take more time (GI Doc)

I still have a massive amount of research to do in the way that I have Crohn's Disease & although we do not have an official Crohn's, IBD, and/or UC thread yet. I have read just about every thread that comes up with the search name Crohn's. It looks as if AAS can also be beneficial to aiding in the relief of flares & symtoms but thats for another thread & another time.


So, if anyone is collecting data please let me know. I have no issue posting anonymous blood work to add to furthur local study.

Wazz

[< <Samson> >]

Tough subject from all aspects.

Will you recover better when you are younger? Theoretically yes, but possibly not since your system 100% developed.

Will you recover 100% when you are older? Yet again, it just depends on how your body reacts. Damn near 6 months after cycle my libido is better than it was before cycle and I am waiting on all of my lab work.


The bottom line is steroids are serious stuff and can effect your system in many ways. There are quite a few side effects which are possible before and after cycling. . . .

So before you jump on, really think about of what can possibly happen and what will you do if it does.


Also, whenever who ever decides to jump on. Try to be as safe as possible, all the way from being sanitary which does not change no matter what age you are. To having a proper PCT on hand along with what ever Ai that may apply to you depending on your cycle.


I don't think any of us really want to mess ourselves up for life. I think

[Wazz]

^ Agreed. w/o making it sound as if slamming others who made mistakes (proper context). Now-a-days Its almost pure neglect to start a cycle w/o proper knowledge or preperation, like you mentioned, having the proper gear on hand should issues arise to include everything for a proper PCT.

I feel for most everyone who got involved w/ AAS before the mainstream internet offered up so much valuable information on preventative health care w/ AAS. They paved the way, but now for those getting involved I find no excuse. It's still a fight, everyday there's Teenagers on this site wanting to start Glad members don't waiver.