How do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

I was talking to this man at my gym earlier today. He's huge, so I asked him what his thoughts were on younger individuals using steroids. He says he's been cycling ever since 17, each cycle after heavy research to ensure he carried the cycle, AI, and PCT protocols perfectly and abides by the "Time on=Time off rule. He said his blood work dictates he's recovered completely each time and is a perfectly healthy individual.

My question is, provided you cycle correctly and recover perfectly each time, how do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

I don't intend to piss anyone off with this thread. Just wanted your view on it

Well he is lucky, you never know how it will effect you. To me it's like playing Russian roulette, you may live you may die. Same with steroids, it may not hurt you but then again it could f.... You up for life. I guess you have to ask yourself is it really worth it. Unless you making your living at it I say no, why take chance just not worth it.

i believe the system works like a thermostat. there is a set point at which your test level will return to whenever its too high or too low. when the HPTA is immature, this set point is not fixed yet, and cycling now may confuse the HPTA enough to wrongly set itself at a very low level. and this can be permanent.

The HPTA is more resilient at a younger age from what the bros say!!


Asiandude do you mind furthering your theory on the thermostat HPTA? What do you think happens to decrease levels after cycles? How does the body keep track with age? Do you alter "hormonal age" with steroids?

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Originally Posted by Sworder

The HPTA is more resilient at a younger age from what the bros say!!


Asiandude do you mind furthering your theory on the thermostat HPTA? What do you think happens to decrease levels after cycles? How does the body keep track with age? Do you alter "hormonal age" with steroids?

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I agree I think it's easier to recover from a cycle when younger then it is when your older. But that's just my opinion and exp. Did a cycle when I was 19, no pct, nothing. Then dbol around 20, 3 years later my test was at 1226ng natural.

By no means am I encouraging youth taking gear, but I don't think it's the end of the world like people say it is. You make mistakes, you learn from them, and hope to be better for them later. I don't give people death sentences for young cycles, but I do encourage research and learning, then decide if it's right for you. Only the individual can chose, and we put no guns to people's heads here.
You cannot change anyone, and people will ultimately do what they want no matter what you say.

Best

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Originally Posted by Phased

I agree I think it's easier to recover from a cycle when younger then it is when your older. But that's just my opinion and exp. Did a cycle when I was 19, no pct, nothing. 3 years my test was at 1226ng natural.
Best

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Very true, there is a lot of misinformation given when people are advised, you can debate if it is justified to give the wrong information to deter a young kid from making a bad decision. Then again do the people that advise this have any background information to make these statements. I wouldn't advise anybody to cycle if they are not willing to sacrifice their HPTA for it. Below the age of 23, I don't think the brain has matured enough to make that decision. I don't think it is right either to use supraphysiological doses of androgens to achieve a body which is achievable naturally.. Just my 2¢, call it food for thought!

what i said is not based on science or research. its my way of thinking so as to understand the overall picture better. i think, in short, you can say its broscience...lol

but this thermostat model can be used to explain many systems that work in our body.

anexample, and the most appropriate one, is thermoregulation. how does our body keep a constant temperature even at very different environmental temp? because somewhere in our brain, there is a fixed point. in a cold environment, the body recognizes it needs to produce more heat or reduce heat loss. vasoconstriction happens in the skin and muscle contract to produce shivering. when its too hot, our body wants to lose excess heat, sweat glands are stimulated and vasodilation happens in the skin.

when you fall sick, the immune system is activated and the set temp is adjusted higher. you get a fever. this might also be due to toxins in the blood stream, but the body actually actively sets a higher temp so that our immune system works slightly better.

come to think about it, almost every system in the body works in this way. everything has a fixed point. deviation from this point is detected, and corrections are made to return to this fixed point.

like i said, this model helps me understand things. it is not based on any particular research paper.

Yes, I know it's just your personal theory.

How would you explain the "fixed" point changing through out life? Could you also touch on the other questions posed please. Again, I understand it is theory. I have my own and would like to hear yours.

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Originally Posted by Sworder

The HPTA is more resilient at a younger age from what the bros say!!


Asiandude do you mind furthering your theory on the thermostat HPTA?
(1)What do you think happens to decrease levels after cycles?
(2)How does the body keep track with age?
(3)Do you alter "hormonal age" with steroids?

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you mean these questions?

Yes, I thought of some more too but lets start with those :)

sex hormones in the body have one main function. for reproduction. this is the same in male and females. estrogen and progesterone in women, and test in men.

as a person grows older and past the reproductive age, sex hormones naturally decrease. menopause is a dramatic step down in female hormones, sudden and drastic. in men, if you believe in the andropause theory, it happens in a more gradual manner. but as a person gets older, the "set point" is gradually lowered. how? i dont know. maybe its just nature.

in young men, the "set point" is much higher. the body wants to produce a lot of test, and like a high level of circulation test. this explains why some younger guys recover from a cycle much easier compared to an older guy. but if the guy is so young that the HPTA is not mature yet (this is my theory again), then the system can be confused and the set point can be incorrectly altered.

for older guys, if the "set point" is already on its way down due to age, recovery from a cycle will be slower, because the set point is already low, the difference between set point and low post-cycle test is not steep.

even in so-called matured HPTA, it doesn't mean that the set point cannot be messed up. frequent and long cycles can still affect this set point. this is why guys who blast and cruise will likely need trt sometime in the future.

In my experience ive never seen a friend or person recover fully over the age of 30, yet the dozen or so people i know between the age of 19 and 27 recover very well every time...

However i don't believe most 18 to 25 year olds are mentally ready to cycle, just my thoughts...

Yes, I believe that the "set point" is altered by either of two things. First is just cell damage, inability to function as a result of aging or from atrophy induced by AAS. Second is I think that the body "keeps track" of circulating androgens. The counter for this.. Erm, maybe the prostate?

With this I believe you can speed up the "hormonal age" by altering the set point so that ones hormonal age is different than that of actual age. Kind of what you would see in a child. As growth plates are exposed to androgens they close and the process of aging is developed in the body.

This is congruent with why men of certain origin which have a higher 5AR activity are shown to decrease in testosterone at an earlier age; while having a very high testosterone level during early adulthood.

Anyway I will further my explanations tomorrow I have to sleep now..

i like broscience discussions :)

It's called genetics. Your genes determine how much Testosterone is produced naturally at any given point. This is what sets the 'thermostat' for literally every single process in your body, and is what ultimately controls homeostasis. And everyone is programmed through their genetics to produce and maintain different levels of different hormones throughout your life at different ages.

But just like a computer, it doesn't matter what the programming says if the hardware becomes physically damaged...

Get what i'm saying?

Something I read today

Master genes control basic body plans.
The development of an organism — from a fertilized egg, through embryonic and juvenile stages, to adulthood — requires the coordinated expression of sets of genes at the proper times and in the proper places. Studies of several bizarre mutations in the fruitfly, Drosophila, provided keys to understanding the molecular basis of large-scale developmental plans. Early embryonic genes express proteins that set up the orientation and define the body segments of the fly embryo. Then "homeotic" genes act on the segments to make the body parts distinct to each segment.
Sequence analysis showed that homeotic genes from Drosophila and vertebrate animals share a 180-nucleotide region, called the homeobox. These homeobox proteins have structures highly similar to the regions of regulatory proteins that bind to DNA promoters and enhancers. Thus, a homeotic protein elicits coordinated expression when the protein binds to a specific promoter or enhancer sequence shared by a number of genes involved in the development of body region or segment.

Very good discussion guys carry on...

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Originally Posted by *Admin*

Very good discussion guys carry on...

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Whats your view on this, boss?

Everyone is different it depends on the individual how and if they recover at a young age, i am also one that started at 18 but never had any problems and shut down was very minimal didnt or doesnt ever really last any longer than a week after cycle ...where as some people are waiting weeks to recover properly after cycle my friend is around 6 weeks before he notices hes getting back to normal so it all depends on your body BUT that being said to cycle at a young age is a lottery if your body dont like it then the damage is done then thats it your pretty much screwed and on other meds or trt for life so you do have to be very carefull and not having your dick working but looking the bollocks must be the worst ever feeling lolol so be carefull all be wise!!

(To the young ones reading this)^^^^^^^

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Originally Posted by Matt

In my experience ive never seen a friend or person recover fully over the age of 30, yet the dozen or so people i know between the age of 19 and 27 recover very well every time...

However i don't believe most 18 to 25 year olds are mentally ready to cycle, just my thoughts...

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Sworder^^^^
Members please read, and re read this again. 100% truth.

Thank you Matt
Best

dont believe this to be true at all^^^^^^

I am not condoning the use of youth using steroids. No they should not use them, however I am not going to hand out death sentences to them and to their HTPA. The human body is more resilient than we can even understand.

People will always do what they want, regardless of what you tell them.
Dad says Don't take steroids..well they them.
Dad says don't do drugs, they use them.
Dad says don't get tattoos they get them.

Millions of people come here a year, how many take them no matter what we say..Hundreds if not hundreds of thousands.
I only hope they wait, but if they do not, well we can at least help them recover or do it right or both.

I did a cycle a test cycle at 19 in high school, recovered fine. Then did a dbol only cycle at 20, recovered fine. No these are not the way to do them. Had I known or had this board back then things would have been different, I still would have ran them, but done them right. At 23 after both cycles were over and no pct I still had a base line test of 1226ng.

Yes you can recover.

Research, learn, listen decide if its right for you, then act.

Best

The question that always arose in my mind is how do you know you recovered fine?
How do you know what your endogenous hormone levels MIGHT have been had you not shut down a developing HPTA ? You dont.
You know what is , but you have no idea what might have been .
Also as Matt pointed out the emotional maturity issue is one important point to consider as well that often gets overlooked. Thats on an individual basis IMO as sometimes i see 30 yr olds that i dont think are emotionally ready or capable of undertaking androgen use.

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.


Of course your going to get guys recovering fine and the majority dont IMHO, many cover it up and ashamed to say anything other ask for help who really need it. I have a list of threads somewhere from many teenagers etc pleading for help and IMHO they outweight the ones who recover fine.

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Originally Posted by Phased

I am not condoning the use of youth using steroids. No they should not use them, however I am not going to hand out death sentences to them and to their HTPA. The human body is more resilient than we can even understand.

People will always do what they want, regardless of what you tell them.
Dad says Don't take steroids..well they them.
Dad says don't do drugs, they use them.
Dad says don't get tattoos they get them.

Millions of people come here a year, how many take them no matter what we say..Hundreds if not hundreds of thousands.
I only hope they wait, but if they do not, well we can at least help them recover or do it right or both.

I did a cycle a test cycle at 19 in high school, recovered fine. Then did a dbol only cycle at 23, recovered fine. No these are not the way to do them. Had I known or had this board back then things would have been different, I still would have ran them, but done them right. At 23 after both cycles were over and no pct I still had a base line test of 1226ng.

Yes you can recover.

Research, learn, listen decide if its right for you, then act.

Best

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Thank you. I'm only 19 and I'll still more than likely wait until I'm around 23. I don't really see the need. You can still build a great physique naturally that girls will love, which is one of the main reasons people my age decide to cycle so early unfortunately. They think it's a magic chemical to get them ripped quick but in reality it's a huge bargain with your health. I asked this just to help out mainly with the high school and aspiring college athletes.

Thank you everyone for answering. This is a great discussion

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Originally Posted by Shsm

Thank you. I'm only 19 and I'll still more than likely wait until I'm around 23. I don't really see the need. You can still build a great physique naturally that girls will love, which is one of the main reasons people my age decide to cycle so early unfortunately. They think it's a magic chemical to get them ripped quick but in reality it's a huge bargain with your health. I asked this just to help out mainly with the high school and aspiring college athletes.

Thank you everyone for answering. This is a great discussion

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Good to hear that you are waiting, your body will thank you later. From 19 to 23 you have 4 years to build an incredible structure. If you get impatient and can't wait come talk to us first before doing anything. If you get dead set on it, at least we can guide you and make the best out of it. But please wait.

Best

Genetics yes, but what does genetics tell us? It sends out hormones, we are altering genetics in a way by supplying hormones. This is why we can grow past "genetic potential", all these signals are going to be recorded one way or another from my perspective. If you are supposed to per say get 1.2grams of testosterone in a year naturally I believe you are maturing your endocrine system by exogenous supply of hormones.

If you think about it, what does aging mean? It has to be the cumulative stress on the body by sex hormones. Genetics are the boss and uses hormones to send a message. I would think that it only makes sense that we are altering "genetics" by exogenous "messengers".

The pax 7 genes are the ones responsible for myogenesis in the homeobox.

@ Marcus3000 Your endo seems to talk a lot and be very general; care to try to squeeze some more information out of him about what he means with the statements. Specifics please!

@Binsser What Matt stated is very true, it is known by people who have a clue and saying otherwise is probably "scare tactics".

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Originally Posted by Sworder

@ Marcus3000 Your endo seems to talk a lot and be very general; care to try to squeeze some more information out of him about what he means with the statements. Specifics please!

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My endo does talk alot to me and explains things indetail if you dont understand him himn I would ask you to do more research because I'm not seeing him for a long time and I dont think he cant explain his view any better. I don't agree with that there is more younger guys recovering than having problems, from my experience a lot lie about recovery and there are far more with issues related to low test. This is a subject what can go on forever but at the end of the day you give your advice and everyone else can theres if the OP wants to take risks what could damage to his HPTA then thats his choice. Its just all different opinions and thats whats good abouit forums because its full of them.

@Marcus3000 All systems in the body get weaker and recover more difficult as you grow older.

The theory that it is only in the genetics/DNA and that we aren't doing anything to change this by exposing ourselves to high levels of androgens is false IMO! If genetics aren't changed then you wouldn't see such a decline in LH/FSH/Testosterone after 5-6 cycles. Unless this is caused by damage to the actual Pit/Hypo/Leydigs as a result of atrophy. Or the actual androgens causing damage to the tissue(this is not very plausible imo).

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Originally Posted by Sworder

@Marcus3000 All systems in the body get weaker and recover more difficult as you grow older.

The theory that it is only in the genetics/DNA and that we aren't doing anything to change this by exposing ourselves to high levels of androgens is false IMO! If genetics aren't changed then you wouldn't see such a decline in LH/FSH/Testosterone after 5-6 cycles. Unless this is caused by damage to the actual Pit/Hypo/Leydigs as a result of atrophy. Or the actual androgens causing damage to the tissue(this is not very plausible imo).

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Ive no idea what your going on about now!

IMHO if you use steroids before your HPTA isnt full developed and your natural test isnt maatured or runnng at peak levels you have more of a chance of causing yourself problems ie low test and not fully recovering or reaching your natural test peak. I think there are more who dont fully recover than more who do. If you think different fine just give your advice to the OP but from my experience and the endo's ive spoken to its clear its a huge problem and is causing serious issues with the younger bodybuilders.

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Originally Posted by Sworder

@Marcus3000 All systems in the body get weaker and recover more difficult as you grow older.

The theory that it is only in the genetics/DNA and that we aren't doing anything to change this by exposing ourselves to high levels of androgens is false IMO! If genetics aren't changed then you wouldn't see such a decline in LH/FSH/Testosterone after 5-6 cycles. Unless this is caused by damage to the actual Pit/Hypo/Leydigs as a result of atrophy. Or the actual androgens causing damage to the tissue(this is not very plausible imo).

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Your DNA doesn't change over time. Unless you live in Chernobyl.

The reason why there is a decline in LH/FSH/Testosterone due to age, or even after doing several cycles is simply wear and tear, and/or aging. Some of these occurances can be sped up by improper use of AAS, inadequate or no PCT, and so on and so forth. Your genetics will also determine at what point in time your body is going to naturally decline in production of these hormones as well. We all have peaks in our optimal reproductive cycles, and then it naturally slows down over time. It is a combination of wear and tear, age, genetics, and what we do to ourselves (what we consume and expose ourselves to, etc.).

And before anyone jumps on me about my "your DNA doesn't change over time" statement and starts to nitpick semantics:

- I am not talking about evolution when I said that
- I am not talking about mutations caused by chemicals or radiation when I said that
- I am talking about a change in the DNA that governs your body's processes (and in this case we're talking about endocrine processes) in your lifetime.

I am not saying your DNA changes or your genes changes! I am saying the expression that your genes are making are getting changed by supplying exogenous hormones!!

I had some freinds at a young age doing cycles in my high school and now a few years later theres nothing wrong with them. but i know it DOES f u up inside or it could mentaly but everyone is different, you dont know how it can affect you

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Originally Posted by Atomini

Your DNA doesn't change over time. Unless you live in Chernobyl.

The reason why there is a decline in LH/FSH/Testosterone due to age, or even after doing several cycles is simply wear and tear, and/or aging. Some of these occurances can be sped up by improper use of AAS, inadequate or no PCT, and so on and so forth. Your genetics will also determine at what point in time your body is going to naturally decline in production of these hormones as well. We all have peaks in our optimal reproductive cycles, and then it naturally slows down over time. It is a combination of wear and tear, age, genetics, and what we do to ourselves (what we consume and expose ourselves to, etc.).

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It also prob has to do with a desensitization along the entire HPTA if I had to speculate. Years of gnrh triggering lh fsh (cliffs obviously) etc ..i would imagine some desensitization would occur. Also possibly the age related effects on specific cyp enzymes. Now im going from memory here so bear with me or if I am incorrect in my recollection jump in please. ie: cyp 19 (aromatase) increases with age and cyp3a4 genrally decreases with age. Increased aromatase and a decrease in the enzyme that metabolizes estrogen results in higher e2 levels and a stronger negative feedback. Also aromatase has a proportional relationship to shbg ...so increased aromatase = increased shbg. Just some speculation on my part.

Wait until you're 25, why not use your natural levels which are already incredibly high? Steroids should only be used after you're 25, that's when your test levels start to drop.

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Originally Posted by P.Money

Wait until you're 25, why not use your natural levels which are already incredibly high? Steroids should only be used after you're 25, that's when your test levels start to drop.

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Why does every vet and noob say this?

As if teens can build muscle just like that....they're the same as everyone,they still plateau and natural gains start taking forever....

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Originally Posted by Anabolick

Why does every vet and noob say this?

As if teens can build muscle just like that....they're the same as everyone,they still plateau and natural gains start taking forever....

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There's a reason behind saying it. You need to reach your maximum natural potential, then you hit the juice. And besides, it could affect your growth!

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Originally Posted by Phased

I am not condoning the use of youth using steroids. No they should not use them, however I am not going to hand out death sentences to them and to their HTPA. The human body is more resilient than we can even understand.

People will always do what they want, regardless of what you tell them.
Dad says Don't take steroids..well they them.
Dad says don't do drugs, they use them.
Dad says don't get tattoos they get them.

Millions of people come here a year, how many take them no matter what we say..Hundreds if not hundreds of thousands.
I only hope they wait, but if they do not, well we can at least help them recover or do it right or both.

I did a cycle a test cycle at 19 in high school, recovered fine. Then did a dbol only cycle at 20, recovered fine. No these are not the way to do them. Had I known or had this board back then things would have been different, I still would have ran them, but done them right. At 23 after both cycles were over and no pct I still had a base line test of 1226ng.

Yes you can recover.

Research, learn, listen decide if its right for you, then act.

Best

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hi Phased,
i am confused about your stand. you dont condone teenages using, but not because of health reasons since you think they recover well enough. so what are your reasons for youngsters not using?

Just because there is a possibility of recovery dose not take the place of preventing them from using it in the first place. Like I said I don't hand out death sentences to people like most do around here. And im not going to contribute to fear mongering. Yes its possible to recover.

Does drinking Alchohol before your legal make it ok? No.
Does taking steroids before 25 beause you can make it ok? No

Just because it is possible to recover does not make everything ok, your heath can still be effected, high BPH, PSA, BP, hairloss acne Gyno, and everything else.

Are these kids going to ruin themselves for life off a bad cycle, it's on an individual basis and I think with Anything care must be taking before, during and after cycle to ensure a proper recovery.

I stand firm with my opinion, no they should no use them, but if they are determined to, you or me ain't gonna do a damn thing to change the vast majoritys mind. I'll be here to tell them the pros and cons and help with in whatever decision they make. I'm not going to toss kids to the wind because they make a wrong decision. I'll help them avoid as much damage as I can along the way and hope to give them a speedy recovery, and if I can stop a few along the way from using them more power to them.

Best.