Confused as hell about hCG now...

**RyanGreg** · 10-13-2012, 05:56 PM

Is it used during cycle or in PCT?

I always thought it should be used throughout cycle at 125-250iu twice per week but now I'm hearing that it should be used in PCT only?

Can someone clear this up for me thanks..

**MickeyKnox** · 10-13-2012, 06:02 PM

during cycle. 250iu 2/wk.

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 06:03 PM

During cycle up to 3 days before PCT.

**RyanGreg** · 10-13-2012, 06:08 PM

Thanks guys..

So stop 3 days before PCT are you saying?

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 06:09 PM

Yes, it has a 48 hour half-life so it clears quickly.

**kmms** · 10-13-2012, 06:10 PM

i'm using it for the final 4 weeks on cycle, the two weeks before pct begins as well as the first two weeks of pct.

i'm not a medical doctor and i did not stay at a holiday inn express last night.

**DanB** · 10-13-2012, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by kmms

i'm using it for the final 4 weeks on cycle, the two weeks before pct begins as well as the first two weeks of pct.

i'm not a medical doctor and i did not stay at a holiday inn express last night.

just wondering as it is obviously your decision but why choose to take during pct? do you understand why it is advisable to not using during pct

op sorry for hijack im just curious and also should have some info relevant to the topic for you to see

**Sgt. Hartman** · 10-13-2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

during cycle. 250iu 2/wk.

Correct.

And it can be ramped up to higher doses the last few weeks on cycle especially on an aggressive or extended cycles.

**kmms** · 10-13-2012, 06:15 PM

mine indicates a half life of 33 hours

Originally Posted by Sworder

Yes, it has a 48 hour half-life so it clears quickly.

**Sgt. Hartman** · 10-13-2012, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

just wondering as it is obviously your decision but why choose to take during pct? do you understand why it is advisable to not using during pct

op sorry for hijack im just curious and also should have some info relevant to the topic for you to see

Running it the 2 weeks before pct on a long estered cycle is not a bad idea imo but the first 2 weeks into pct is counterproductive b/c it will inhibit lh which is def not what we want during pct.

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by kmms

mine indicates a half life of 33 hours

Is that IM or subQ injection?

**kmms** · 10-13-2012, 06:26 PM

you know there is a tremendous amount of conflicting information available on this issue. ultimately it's up to each of us to assess the info that's available and make an informed decision. failing that, we would still benefit i think by looking to people who have a significant amount of experience with these things and then make a personal assessment of them, are they successful or failing or just treading water etc.

if you have a link to some good info be it personal experience or peer reviewed studies then i'm certainly willing to review my position if it makes a convincing argument. i suppose that running it for the duration of the cycle and not using it to transition into pct just doesn't make sense to me but using it at the end of the cycle and through the two week downtime and commencement of pct does. i'm no doctor, man. i am willing to learn and am glad a forum like this is here to help us all make informed decisions.

Originally Posted by DanB

just wondering as it is obviously your decision but why choose to take during pct? do you understand why it is advisable to not using during pct

op sorry for hijack im just curious and also should have some info relevant to the topic for you to see

**DanB** · 10-13-2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

Running it the 2 weeks before pct on a long estered cycle is not a bad idea imo but the first 2 weeks into pct is counterproductive b/c it will inhibit lh which is def not what we want during pct.

yeah my thoughts aswell and i think it was you who advised me to blast prior to pct a while ago and i done so with good success and will now to this every cycle

just wondering if he didnt know why it should be avoided during pct or if he was following a different theory and if so i would be curious to hear it

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 06:29 PM

HCG = LH analog, your pituitary won't increase its natural LH if it is already getting testosterone production from exogenous sources.

**kmms** · 10-13-2012, 06:30 PM

the packaging indicates either is acceptable. i'm using it subq.

Originally Posted by Sworder

Is that IM or subQ injection?

**DanB** · 10-13-2012, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by kmms

you know there is a tremendous amount of conflicting information available on this issue. ultimately it's up to each of us to assess the info that's available and make an informed decision. failing that, we would still benefit i think by looking to people who have a significant amount of experience with these things and then make a personal assessment of them, are they successful or failing or just treading water etc.

if you have a link to some good info be it personal experience or peer reviewed studies then i'm certainly willing to review my position if it makes a convincing argument. i suppose that running it for the duration of the cycle and not using it to transition into pct just doesn't make sense to me but using it at the end of the cycle and through the two week downtime and commencement of pct does. i'm no doctor, man. i am willing to learn and am glad a forum like this is here to help us all make informed decisions.

i havnt used during pct simply because the advise i have been given and what i have read myself all shows not to do this for reason sarge stated

im on app watching the ufc so not going near a laptop tonight but im sure i will find relevant info pretty easily tomorrow so i can pm you if you like and have a look

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by kmms

the packaging indicates either is acceptable. i'm using it subq.

I was talking about the half-life, it will differ from subQ or IM....

**kmms** · 10-13-2012, 06:38 PM

haha shit i need to get off the comp before someone spoils it for me. we used to get free ppv's here in thailand but the network dropped that channel this year so now i have to wait for downloads.

Originally Posted by DanB

i havnt used during pct simply because the advise i have been given and what i have read myself all shows not to do this for reason sarge stated

im on app watching the ufc so not going near a laptop tonight but im sure i will find relevant info pretty easily tomorrow so i can pm you if you like and have a look

**RyanGreg** · 10-13-2012, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Yes, it has a 48 hour half-life so it clears quickly.

Thanks for the replays everyone..

This is the main reason i was confused about having hcg during cycle or in PCT:

You have not stated what your HCG dose is. Also, you're using it right from week 1? And I don't reccomend you use it what so ever anyways. This is your very first cycle, and you don't even know if you are prone to testicular atrophy. Most people don't even experience it, let alone on what is considered a short cycle (8 weeker). 8 weeks being on the short end should provide a window for your HPTA to recover faster and easier than longer cycles people have done. In short, your plan to use HCG is a waste of money, and you don't need it. Why don't you run this cycle WITHOUT it, and observe whether or not you are prone to testicular atrophy. If you do get it (which would typically be WEEKS into your cycle IF you do get it), you can easily start the HCG several weeks in... and even so, i'd like to add that your testicles will return to normal size during PCT anyhow even without HCG. If you don't get testicular atrophy, there's no need to be using HCG. I believe HCG isn't a requirement at all for anything, and should only be used if you are having the utmost trouble getting your testosterone levels back up. I think you are falling into the usual trap that a lot of beginners do whereby you are getting scared by some of the things you are reading (in this case, testicular atrophy) and freaking out over what to take to 'prevent' it. This is not unlike how people will go out and start buying 5-alpha reductase inhibitors and all these other things because they're afraid of every side effect under the sun. If doses are sensible and cycle lengths kept short, most of these side effects shouldn't even see the light of day.

The biggest problem I find people run into is that when they are new to this world of AAS, they do a lot of research (which is of course a good thing). But the problem is that they read everything with extreme contexts and start to freak out. People will read about how most AAS convert into estrogen and DHT on cycle, and how it will suppress the body's endogenous hormone production, etc. So then they freak out and think they need to buy copious amounts of aromatase inhibitors, SERMs, 5-AR blockers, shoot HCG into themselves every day on cycle, and literally try to combat EVERY SINGLE THING that they read about. I have to tell these people "whoa, calm down and just take a step back for a second and look at the big picture". You need to realize this is why we start first cycles with testosterone -only, and start things slow so you can gauge how you react to it. Not everyone will get gyno , not everyone will get acne, etc. etc. and so you must learn what YOU need to do. If you just go off and buy every single blocker of everything, and run it on your first cycle... how will you ever know if you are even sensitive at all to these side effects you're attempting to block? The answer is you don't know! You could be wasting your money buying all these ancilliaries and running them at full blast doses to block side effects you aren't even prone to! This is where we use logic and reason when we plan cycles and do research, etc.

My personal opinion is that I see far too many people excessively relying on HCG in the first place. It is very easy to destroy your body's endogenous LH secretion with it (by both desensitizing your leydig cells in the testes, as well as halting endogenous LH and FSH secretion), and is one of the reasons why I strongly advise against its constant use while on-cycle . IF HCG were to be used at all, I advise only during the first week or so of PCT to give the testes a jumpstart (see 'steroid .com PCT' in the PCT forum) - that's IT. I'm telling you, drop the HCG. You don't even know if you're prone to testicular atrophy yet, let alone all the other issues that constant on-cycle HCG use presents.

The post was not made to me by the way..

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 06:46 PM

It's not the cosmetic "testicular atrophy" that is important, its preventing the leydig cells to atrophy on a cellular level so they are responsive to the LH later when you start PCT.

**Metalject** · 10-13-2012, 07:46 PM

It can be used on cycle or during PCT...during PCT I like to refer to it as a prime for the SERM therapy to come.

While it can be used on cycle, I also think this can get a lot of guys in a mess if they're not careful. It's very easy for the body to become dependent on the LH mimic HCG provides and it occurs it normally occurs due to long term use...a PCT prime with HCG won't be long term. Anyway, the desensitized effect is very real and something many often overlook.

Last thing, kind of off topic but relevant IMO. Whether you use HCG on cycle or not, if you're going to use steroids it's always best to assume you will one day end up with the need for TRT. I'm not saying it's a guarantee but even if you do everything perfectly there's still a very good chance.

**mockery** · 10-13-2012, 07:51 PM

I think what this comes down to is, Ronnie promotes high doseages of hcg in pct ran with nova... alot of people look to him for advice but alot of his advice is conflicted on this forum. But my understanding is his ideas are on guys that wanna get huge and stay huge using large amaounts of gear year round. So people need to set goals before they go one way or another.

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by mockery

I think what this comes down to is, Ronnie promotes high doseages of hcg in pct ran with nova... alot of people look to him for advice but alot of his advice is conflicted on this forum. But my understanding is his ideas are on guys that wanna get huge and stay huge using large amaounts of gear year round. So people need to set goals before they go one way or another.

There has been a lot of research done in this area since those protocols were established and the leading steroid experts would agree not to include hCG in PCT. Also, that if you are not going to use it during the cycle and jump start it pre-PCT you need higher doses to accomplish this 1000IU EOD for 2 weeks would suffice but you can't do 500iu twice a week after being shut down 12weeks+ and expect the gonads to be fully functional.