2nd Cycle

[jfromthebloc]

Male
28yrs Old
172 lbs
6"2
10-12% Body Fat

Hi there,

I just finished my first var/winnie cycle and I've been lurking on these boards obsessively for months. I absolutely loved my first cycle. It made me more consistent than I've ever been, I look great, and my strength is better than ever. I also never experienced any sides or anything negative for that matter. I got strong and leaned out. That said, I didn't get much bigger without a test base. So as I sit here and plan my second cycle I would appreciate some advice. I'm thinking oral t-bar with some sort of test base. Ideally I'd like to find one with minimal sides--especially of the gyno variety, one that doesn't need to be injected often, low water retention, and one that people don't bitch about the pain so much like prop. I'm a wuss I know, but I'm just starting out so take it easy on me, because the ideas of needles scare the shit out of me.

My goals are not to get crazy big. I want to achieve a bw of 185-190 with a single digit body fat percentage. I would also like to continue to get stronger. My goal for the last year has been to bench my own body weight and now that I can do that I'd love to be able to rep 225 some day.

I would appreciate any advice you guys could offer.

Thanks so much and happy to be here.

[PillarofBalance]

You could achieve 190lbs with single digit body fat just by carb cycling. Not gear cycling. Hire a diet guy instead of spending your money on gear.

[Capebuffalo]

Food is the most anabolic thing you can put in your body.
Would you mind listing everything you ate yesterday?

[jfromthebloc]

What I ate yesterday:
-Breakfast: Kashi Lean and a protein shake
-Mid Morning Snack: apple and a think thin protein bar
-Lunch: 2 chix breast and string cheese
-Afternoon snack: handful of almonds and walnuts with another protein shake
-dinner: half of a rotisserie chix with steamed broccoli

I was raised by a nutritionist and I definitely know how to eat. I was the kid who used to spend the night at my buddies houses just so I could eat captain crunch in the morning, because I grew up in the blandest house ever. I also used to work as a rep for Sambazon, Spirulean, and Atkins.

Thanks for the replies guys!

[Anxnymous]

If your looking to not gain more muscle mass then never log on here again, just get a good diet, do some cardio, and enjoy your single digit bf and you have saved 350$

[PillarofBalance]

What I ate yesterday:
-Breakfast: Kashi Lean and a protein shake
-Mid Morning Snack: apple and a think thin protein bar
-Lunch: 2 chix breast and string cheese
-Afternoon snack: handful of almonds and walnuts with another protein shake
-dinner: half of a rotisserie chix with steamed broccoli

I was raised by a nutritionist and I definitely know how to eat. I was the kid who used to spend the night at my buddies houses just so I could eat captain crunch in the morning, because I grew up in the blandest house ever. I also used to work as a rep for Sambazon, Spirulean, and Atkins.

Thanks for the replies guys!

Protein shakes and bars aren't food. You're not going to grow on that. You ate two pieces of chicken and some broccoli and some string cheese.

here was my meals yesterday and it was a non-training day

Meal 1
16 egg whites
1 Cup Oats
1 Cup fruit (god I hate fruit)

Meal 2
10 oz ground turkey
3 flax wraps

Meal 3
8 oz Shrimp
1 cup basmati rice

Meal 4
10 oz Ground Turkey
1 cup basmati rice

Meal 5
8 oz ribeye steak
1 baked sweet potato

Meal 6
6 Reese's Peanut Butter Cups (haters gonna hate)
3 Cups Greek yogurt

Protein powder is for post workout... thats it.

"Nutritionists" don't know jack about bodybuilding and power lifting diets.

[jfromthebloc]

Pillaro...wow! I can't even imagine the prep time for all that! Definitely eye-opening though. I have plans to eat a lot more during my 2nd cycle.

Anonymous...I'm trying to put on about 15lbs of lean muscle mass.

[Capebuffalo]

Your not eating near enough. Please try the nutrition section. List your goals and the food you just listed and they will help you. Aas at this point you won't keep your gains. You have to eat more.

[Capebuffalo]

Do you know your tdee? Do you know the macros of the food you listed ?

[warmouth]

Your diet is lacking for sure. That is low for a woman cutting in my opinion. And after that first cycle thing you did, I think BW should be your first objective, not anabolics. You got to get that diet down to get the most benefit from any compound to be super efficient. Food would do much, much better than a var/winny only cycle, if thats what you did. Get BW done first to make sure you fully recovered, and then think about the next cycle. Diet first however. Good Luck!

[jfromthebloc]

I understand that diet is key and I'm going to get much better about that for the goals of my second cycle. I've been eating the way I have because when I started weighed in at 196 and I didn't want to throw on a lot muscle with all that fat. Right now, I'm lean and I definitely have more muscle than I ever had in my life, people comment on it almost daily. If someone would help me with my original question I would be very grateful.

[Capebuffalo]

Test e
And ai
Hcg
And try running a pct this time

There you go.
Do you know your tdee?
There is the answers to every question. Your not going to listen so here and good luck

[jfromthebloc]

Cape,

Thank you. I'm undergoing a research phase right now and I came in here to hear everything you guys with a ton of experience have to say. I'm not doing my 2nd cycle until the early spring and I have plenty of time to fill in the gaps of my knowledge--and I know there is a TON more I have to learn. People are so quickly misunderstood on these boards and I just ask that you don't rush to judgement with me. I respect all of the experience and knowledge you guys are offering and I will take it to heart.

And for all I thought I knew about nutrition, I do feel incredibly dumb right now. I've never even heard the term tdee or macros before. However, I will be informed soon....

Thanks again.

And if your avatar is you, you're a frickin' stud.

[Capebuffalo]

Thank you for clarifying. But everyone need to understand diet is 90% of any great cycle. Eating sucks. I hate eating as much and as often as I have to. Please be aware of that and find the answers to your tdee there will be a sticky explaining it and how to figure. I gave you the basic compounds research those and you will have knowledge to ask good questions and understand the answers and why. Take you time. And feel free to ask anything you have a question on. But this is enough to get you started. Welcome. And thank you. I have some growing to do. But I gotta eat more. Lol

[warmouth]

Cape,

Thank you. I'm undergoing a research phase right now and I came in here to hear everything you guys with a ton of experience have to say. I'm not doing my 2nd cycle until the early spring and I have plenty of time to fill in the gaps of my knowledge--and I know there is a TON more I have to learn. People are so quickly misunderstood on these boards and I just ask that you don't rush to judgement with me. I respect all of the experience and knowledge you guys are offering and I will take it to heart.

And for all I thought I knew about nutrition, I do feel incredibly dumb right now. I've never even heard the term tdee or macros before. However, I will be informed soon....

Thanks again.

And if your avatar is you, you're a frickin' stud.

Capes favorite slogan! Inside joke OP. He gave you good advice.

[warmouth]

Cape,

Thank you. I'm undergoing a research phase right now and I came in here to hear everything you guys with a ton of experience have to say. I'm not doing my 2nd cycle until the early spring and I have plenty of time to fill in the gaps of my knowledge--and I know there is a TON more I have to learn. People are so quickly misunderstood on these boards and I just ask that you don't rush to judgement with me. I respect all of the experience and knowledge you guys are offering and I will take it to heart.

And for all I thought I knew about nutrition, I do feel incredibly dumb right now. I've never even heard the term tdee or macros before. However, I will be informed soon....

Thanks again.

And if your avatar is you, you're a frickin' stud.

Dont worry, its a daily thing for me too. You'll learn so much here that it will not matter in a few months. You will be a pro if you stick around. Sorry if I came off as a B-hole, as I know that transcripts often be mistaken. Good Luck!

[jfromthebloc]

Warmouth & Cape,

Thank you, really. I figured my tdee is 3319.48. No wonder why I've been leaning out with my level of activity. I thought it was the var. So with the stack you recommended Cape, how many cals should I take in if I want to add 15lbs of muscle over 8 weeks? Tell me if I should move this over to the nutrition thread at this point....PS I couldn't find anything on macros over there.

Appreciate all the help.

[warmouth]

Alot of estimate say take in 500 calories above TDEE dailt to add 1 pound a week, naturally. That with AAS would probably fit the bill nicely. Be carful where you get the additional calories from though. You could do something like a protien bar somewhere in the day, and before bed eat 1 1/2 cups of greek yogurt, fresh berries, and granola with some almonds on the side or mixed in. That would be about 300 calories.

[Tron3219]

Warmouth & Cape,

Thank you, really. I figured my tdee is 3319.48. No wonder why I've been leaning out with my level of activity. I thought it was the var. So with the stack you recommended Cape, how many cals should I take in if I want to add 15lbs of muscle over 8 weeks? Tell me if I should move this over to the nutrition thread at this point....PS I couldn't find anything on macros over there.

Appreciate all the help.

(15/8)500=caloric increase

Also, research macronutrients, doesn't have to be on this site, learn what they are, then learn how they are used to perform bodily functions. That will lead to how much to eat, and when to eat them. Any questions I'm sure most people can answer on this site if u don't understand something

[Tron3219]

That was supposed to be ( 15 / 8 ) not sun shades haha

[Capebuffalo]

They got you covered. Sorry I had to sleep. Now you see why food is so important. Everybody thinks they eat a lot until they sit down and look at it. You are on your way now. There are online sites where you plug in the food and it will do the calculations for you. Makes it easy to play with and hit the right amounts. Now start eating.

[jfromthebloc]

Hey guys,

Great advice and very practical. It was daunting reading what Pillaro ate yesterday, but after calculating my tdee and figuring I need about 3800cals to throw on a lb a week--I think I could do that if I plan and prep properly. Now the trick is going to be figuring out how to do that cost effectively. Anyways, I'm deathly curious to know what you ate yesterday Cape...if you wouldn't mind. Also, could you fill me in on what ai stands for? It just makes me think of that crappy spielberg film with that kid from sixth sense.

Also, if you guys could recommend any stickies that you think would benefit me that would be awesome. Thanks again!

[jfromthebloc]

Tron,

Your back looks like Bane's from Batman. Knarls bro...

[Capebuffalo]

AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.

Ar-r look for liquidex. I'm on a deload right now and are cutting before an online competition here. Go to the lounge and look at the Bulk Classic threads.
10 egg whites
2 cups oats
2 cups Greek yogurt w/ fruit.

Same above.

15 oz chicken
2 cups brown rice
Broccoli

16 oz fish
Lg sweet potatoe

15 oz beef/ chicken
2 cups brown rice
1/4 wedge lettuce oil vin

Lg chicken burrito

Casian shake

Normal day on a bulk. Not exact but you get the idea.

[jfromthebloc]

Are you not doing any protein shakes/bars throughout the day? Or is it just slow digesting casian before bed?

[Capebuffalo]

Shakes arent as good as food. Ok in a bind. But eat real food.
Shake is right before bed.

[Tron3219]

Tron,

Your back looks like Bane's from Batman. Knarls bro...

I do love me some back day

[jfromthebloc]

Cape,

I was researching the test e and it seems to be the complete opposite of what I want besides the need to only inject once a week. It has high water retention, liver toxic, gyno sides ect. Is that mainly why you also recommended the ai and the HCG along with it? To combat those sides? Is there any test out there with effects like prop that doesn't need to be injected as often?

I'm looking forward to saving money on protein shakes. I've always sucked those things down thinking they'd make me big. You'd be surprised how much bad advice there is out there.

[Capebuffalo]

Ai helps with water retention. Watch your sodium intake. E needs to be pinned every 3.5 days
Prop is eod

[Tron3219]

Cape,

I was researching the test e and it seems to be the complete opposite of what I want besides the need to only inject once a week. It has high water retention, liver toxic, gyno sides ect. Is that mainly why you also recommended the ai and the HCG along with it? To combat those sides? Is there any test out there with effects like prop that doesn't need to be injected as often?

I'm looking forward to saving money on protein shakes. I've always sucked those things down thinking they'd make me big. You'd be surprised how much bad advice there is out there.

The ai will help with the water retention and gyno and most other estrogen related side effects. The hcg will keep ur nuts kickin while on cycle. Hcg is a part of your hpta negative feedback loop.

Your brain(hypothalamus) sends a signal to your pituitary saying if there is enough test in ur system or not. With aas there is an abundance so it tells ur pituitary to stop producing Lh and fsh. Lh and fsh tell ur testes to produce more test and promotes testicular growth and spermatozoa count. It will also act as trh which makes the pituitary secrete t3 and t4(metabolism control)

So in essence it tricks ur body into not shutting off natural test production

[Capebuffalo]

The ai will help with the water retention and gyno and most other estrogen related side effects. The hcg will keep ur nuts kickin while on cycle. Hcg is a part of your hpta negative feedback loop.

Your brain(hypothalamus) sends a signal to your pituitary saying if there is enough test in ur system or not. With aas there is an abundance so it tells ur pituitary to stop producing Lh and fsh. Lh and fsh tell ur testes to produce more test and promotes testicular growth and spermatozoa count. It will also act as trh which makes the pituitary secrete t3 and t4(metabolism control)

So in essence it tricks ur body into not shutting off natural test production

Fing great answer/post. In car hard to give long answers. Cudos

[jfromthebloc]

After going through the profiles of test e and prop I think I'm leaning towards prop eod. Since there are much fewer sides with prop would it be ok to cut out the ai and just keep the HCG?

[Tron3219]

Fing great answer/post. In car hard to give long answers. Cudos

Yeah I feel ya, that was me all day yesterday lol I figured you were half passed out or busy, ur answer are typically in depth and very informative.

[Tron3219]

After going through the profiles of test e and prop I think I'm leaning towards prop eod. Since there are much fewer sides with prop would it be ok to cut out the ai and just keep the HCG?

Negative ghost rider...
Test prop will still aromatize into man boobies and what not

Ar-r has it for like 45 bucks...b there in a week or so waiting on ur front door like its Christmas and sh1t...well worth the investment

[Capebuffalo]

Ai is a must. No exceptions. Worth every cent.

[jfromthebloc]

Tron...that pattern is full. lol

[jfromthebloc]

How often are these ai and HCG injections under a prop eod schedule?

[Tron3219]

Tron...that pattern is full. lol

Haha
But for simplistic sake for you, test e isn't going to cause u much side effects (more then likely) running at a minimum dose of 500mg (250 e3.5d) WITH arimidex. Drink plenty of water and stay away from sodium, take ur adex eod and bloat will b kept to a minimum.

[Tron3219]

How often are these ai and HCG injections under a prop eod schedule?

Adex is what I use as an ai, i used it at .5 every other day up until I started my pct. It's an oral from arr, just shot it in my mouth every other morning, minty fresh

Hcg I used 250iu every 4 days starting 14 days after my first aas dosage. And stopped on my last shot of test e.

U will find many methods for hcg administration. Maybe cape and others can provide some input on their hcg methods

[warmouth]

Test E and P will both aromatize, so I think for now you would be better off pinning the E. Diet can effect water retention as well. HCG pin 2x weekly, AI use EOD ad adjust as you see fit. Prop can get painful if you are new to pinning. It is my favorite, but long esters are just as effective.