HCG and Tren only cycle <Must read!>

[Cheifjuana]

What are your thoughts on HCG and tren only cycle?

-I've recently read that test with tren gives you quite a bit of estrogen and you need an AI.
-With HCG it'll give you enough test to maintain the tren without an AI needed.

So is this a smart move to avoid gyno, and using an AI? Does/will HCG give you enough test to stop tren gen-ital' problems?

[S&S_ShovelHead]

Where did you read hcg will give you a maintenance level of testosterone?

[Cheifjuana]

Where did you read hcg will give you a maintenance level of testosterone?

Read the thread under this one "Low Dose Testosterone Needed"

[austinite]

No. hCG will not suffice. You were misled or misunderstood.

[Sworder]

There are no "tren genital" problems.

I can provide literature supporting that hCG will give you a maintenance level of testosterone. This will have to be tomorrow, have to sleep now. Gonna reply in that thread as well.

[Cheifjuana]

There are no "tren genital" problems.

I can provide literature supporting that hCG will give you a maintenance level of testosterone. This will have to be tomorrow, have to sleep now. Gonna reply in that thread as well.

Okay so no tren dick? Cool man ill see it

[Sworder]

Tren stick problems won't be caused by lacking androgens. As trenbolone is the best one for the job in regards to libido. There may be other factors which relate to ED.

[Cheifjuana]

Tren stick problems won't be caused by lacking androgens. As trenbolone is the best one for the job in regards to libido. There may be other factors which relate to ED.

I see. What were results good and bad when you tried this

[warmouth]

I see. What were results good and bad when you tried this

This is Sworders theory at the moment man. Let him delve into it more. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF! He is not promoting this, ony making a hypothesis and it is for now a theory. Wait. I feel you are young for tren anyways and a nice beginner cycle is what you need to be researching. If you are new to AAS, DONT USE TREN! Be patient. Let Sworder work out these details. I am sure he would persuade you to stickto a beginner cycle anyways, but he has experience and he like to tinker with certain things because he has learned his body and can react in an intelligent manner if something goes wrong. He knows what he is doing, you are not on his level yet.

[Cheifjuana]

This is Sworders theory at the moment man. Let him delve into it more. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF! He is not promoting this, ony making a hypothesis and it is for now a theory. Wait. I feel you are young for tren anyways and a nice beginner cycle is what you need to be researching. If you are new to AAS, DONT USE TREN! Be patient. Let Sworder work out these details. I am sure he would persuade you to stickto a beginner cycle anyways, but he has experience and he like to tinker with certain things because he has learned his body and can react in an intelligent manner if something goes wrong. He knows what he is doing, you are not on his level yet.

1, am I stopping him from delveing on this? 2, did I say I want to do this? 3, did I say it wasn't a theory? Kinda the reason I posted about it... 4, I know its his theory I was talking to him about this. (Damn) 5, I'm 21 you couldn't convince me to take gear right now when my body is almost developed and don't plan on taking tren and also don't remember me saying I wanted to. 6, I am patient and letting him work out the details how am I stopping him? 7, When did I say I was "on his level" with gear? SHAKING MY D dude. Smd.

I feel the post that I read on this website and very interesting and enlightening but then the subject gets shut down with people talking like this then the thread goes no where -.-

Please can we talk about this without interruption. With staying on topic? Ty

[austinite]

1, am I stopping him from delveing on this? 2, did I say I want to do this? 3, did I say it wasn't a theory? Kinda the reason I posted about it... 4, I know its his theory I was talking to him about this. (Damn) 5, I'm 21 you couldn't convince me to take gear right now when my body is almost developed and don't plan on taking tren and also don't remember me saying I wanted to. 6, I am patient and letting him work out the details how am I stopping him? 7, When did I say I was "on his level" with gear? SHAKING MY D dude. Smd.

I feel the post that I read on this website and very interesting and enlightening but then the subject gets shut down with people talking like this then the thread goes no where -.-

Please can we talk about this without interruption. With staying on topic? Ty

smd? You need to watch what you say. Warmouth said nothing warranting this reply from you. He said what he said with good intentions. Relax and watch the foul language.

[JohnnyVegas]

If hCG alone caused a maintenance level of testosterone, none of us TRT guys would need test...we would just use the hCG.

My TRT dose shuts me down (as would a Tren cycle) The hCG does enough to prohibit testicular atrophy, but it doesn't produce a maintenance level of Test. If it did, my Test levels would be off the charts.

I look foreword to seeing what Sworder has been reading. If what you say is true, the TRT guys will go crazy.

[Atomini]

Problem with using HCG is that it increases aromatase activity, thereby increasing estrogen. So yes, you WILL still need an AI if you do this. It does not negate the need for an AI but warrants one even more. Bad idea!

[warmouth]

1, am I stopping him from delveing on this? 2, did I say I want to do this? 3, did I say it wasn't a theory? Kinda the reason I posted about it... 4, I know its his theory I was talking to him about this. (Damn) 5, I'm 21 you couldn't convince me to take gear right now when my body is almost developed and don't plan on taking tren and also don't remember me saying I wanted to. 6, I am patient and letting him work out the details how am I stopping him? 7, When did I say I was "on his level" with gear? SHAKING MY D dude. Smd.

I feel the post that I read on this website and very interesting and enlightening but then the subject gets shut down with people talking like this then the thread goes no where -.-

Please can we talk about this without interruption. With staying on topic? Ty

I think you are over reacting a bit. Sworder posted this theory, which is where the conversation should have stayed. No reason to start a thread on a topic that was just started, as it could be asked there. I was simply saying that you needed to let the theory play out, and see what comes of this. I said nothing that you WERE going to do this, but questioning it at this point is no needed, as everyone, including Sworder will not reccommend this until alot more research i done.

[adamjames]

What are your thoughts on HCG and tren only cycle?

-I've recently read that test with tren gives you quite a bit of estrogen and you need an AI.
-With HCG it'll give you enough test to maintain the tren without an AI needed.

So is this a smart move to avoid gyno, and using an AI? Does/will HCG give you enough test to stop tren gen-ital' problems?

Im no expert on HCG but it looks like austinite answered your question regarding it, as far as tren, test and estrogen levels go you can you run low test dose at say 150 mg ew or 200 ew and tren at 300 and upwards, this kind of dosing along with correct diet and cardio should yield the ripped dry look you seek and you may not need an AI at all if you nail it

[migs]

My doc put me on 1000iu of hcg every other day my test levels went from 382 to 1190. But the problem was my estrogen also went through the roof from 19 to a whooping 63 and quest diagnostics considers over 30 high. I'm taking letro to control it so tren with hcg is a bad idea endless your going to add a ai plus tren and hcg.

[Lunk1]

Problem with using HCG is that it increases aromatase activity, thereby increasing estrogen. So yes, you WILL still need an AI if you do this. It does not negate the need for an AI but warrants one even more. Bad idea!

I promise this post answers the theory of if an AI is still needed......

Thanks A!

[austinite]

My doc put me on 1000iu of hcg every other day my test levels went from 382 to 1190. But the problem was my estrogen also went through the roof from 19 to a whooping 63 and quest diagnostics considers over 30 high. I'm taking letro to control it so tren with hcg is a bad idea endless your going to add a ai plus tren and hcg.

Lol. You need a new doctor if this is at all true. Your intratesticular e2 is through the roof I bet.

[migs]

Lol. You need a new doctor if this is at all true. Your intratesticular e2 is through the roof I bet.

Yup it's true? I'm still trying to control my e2

[Atomini]

My doc put me on 1000iu of hcg every other day my test levels went from 382 to 1190. But the problem was my estrogen also went through the roof from 19 to a whooping 63 and quest diagnostics considers over 30 high. I'm taking letro to control it so tren with hcg is a bad idea endless your going to add a ai plus tren and hcg.

^ And this post here confirms what I said about the risks of using HCG without an AI!! Granted, 1000iu EOD is a heavy duty dosing protocol, but E2 levels rise with HCG use regardless. ALWAYS USE AN AI WITH HCG (at least a moderate dose and preferably Aromasin as the AI of choice).

[Cheifjuana]

smd? You need to watch what you say. Warmouth said nothing warranting this reply from you. He said what he said with good intentions. Relax and watch the foul language.

Oh didn't realize the letter D offended you. Actually really none of your concern on that post but ty I'm relaxing

[Cheifjuana]

I think you are over reacting a bit. Sworder posted this theory, which is where the conversation should have stayed. No reason to start a thread on a topic that was just started, as it could be asked there. I was simply saying that you needed to let the theory play out, and see what comes of this. I said nothing that you WERE going to do this, but questioning it at this point is no needed, as everyone, including Sworder will not reccommend this until alot more research i done.

I can ask a question for everyons opinion. It was buried on that thread and wanted everyone to see this. My apologizes bra, just wanted everyone to see Sworders theory . Didn't mean to offend

[warmouth]

3....2....1. LovByts, how long you predict here?

[MickeyKnox]

What are your thoughts on HCG and tren only cycle?

-I've recently read that test with tren gives you quite a bit of estrogen and you need an AI.
-With HCG it'll give you enough test to maintain the tren without an AI needed.

So is this a smart move to avoid gyno, and using an AI? Does/will HCG give you enough test to stop tren gen-ital' problems?

Imho, Tren and hCG only are a recipe for gyno, and other related E2 issues, without an AI/dopamine agonist. And this combo can further complicate "genital problems" if E2 is not maintained properly.

[Sworder]

If hCG alone caused a maintenance level of testosterone, none of us TRT guys would need test...we would just use the hCG.

My TRT dose shuts me down (as would a Tren cycle) The hCG does enough to prohibit testicular atrophy, but it doesn't produce a maintenance level of Test. If it did, my Test levels would be off the charts.

I look foreword to seeing what Sworder has been reading. If what you say is true, the TRT guys will go crazy.

HCG monotherapy has been used and implemented with success with some people. Of course not with primary, but with cyclists their testicles should be in far better condition. You don't think that hCG can produce maintenance levels of testosterone? I thought most testosterone comes from the testicles? The same testicles LH(and hCG) stimulates to produce testosterone. You can call HCG LH if you want, and you think that LH + testicle = normal testosterone but LH(HCG) + testicle = low testosterone? See how it doesn't make sense? The TRT guys won't go crazy because primary hypogonadal patients don't respond to LH( read HCG). I have a thread in HRT forum if you wish to find information that this works. I wouldn't bring it up unless I was certain of it.

Problem with using HCG is that it increases aromatase activity, thereby increasing estrogen. So yes, you WILL still need an AI if you do this. It does not negate the need for an AI but warrants one even more. Bad idea!

HCG will have an pretty equal amount of aromatase activity as LH. You probably didn't know LH will cause aromatase? So NO, if you can dial in your hCG to mimic NORMAL testosterone levels you shouldn't need an AI. Please provide support for your statements if you wish to further the discussion.

My doc put me on 1000iu of hcg every other day my test levels went from 382 to 1190. But the problem was my estrogen also went through the roof from 19 to a whooping 63 and quest diagnostics considers over 30 high. I'm taking letro to control it so tren with hcg is a bad idea endless your going to add a ai plus tren and hcg.

1190 is not considered normal testosterone levels... We want to shoot for normal levels, your testosterone is sky high. Thanks for providing support of how high hCG can take testosterone. It is the testosterone and estrogen relationship is what drives your estrogen high.

Imho, Tren and hCG only are a recipe for gyno, and other related E2 issues, without an AI/dopamine agonist. And this combo can further complicate "genital problems" if E2 is not maintained properly.

If you can keep your estrogen by the 20 mark with hCG you will be fine. Dopamine agonists are not needed when using trenbolone, this is a great myth. I have heard female accounts that run trenbolone and don't lactate, their breasts are fully developed. Makes you wonder huh. Libido can be managed with a strong AR binding androgen such as trenbolone and keeping estrogen in range or even a little below. I know personally as I have done this.

[Sworder]

I know a couple guys who are running hCG mono. Their doses and tT are as follows:

400 IU HCG x3/week
tT 778 ng/dL

400 IU HCG x3/week
tT 855 ng/dl

Kelkel found the study and posted in another thread:
Dose-Dependent Increase in Intratesticular Testosterone by Very Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin in Normal Men with Experimental Gonadotropin Deficiency
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913032/

[MickeyKnox]

...If you can keep your estrogen by the 20 mark with hCG you will be fine. Dopamine agonists are not needed when using trenbolone, this is a great myth. I have heard female accounts that run trenbolone and don't lactate, their breasts are fully developed. Makes you wonder huh. Libido can be managed with a strong AR binding androgen such as trenbolone and keeping estrogen in range or even a little below. I know personally as I have done this.

Im not referring to women here..lol But i hear what youre saying.

Question: Do you think this statement holds true with men and tren? IOW's, same scenario but with men. Do you feel that dopamine agonists are a myth without the use of an AI while administering tren only?

[Sworder]

The point is showing that with fully developed mammory glands(read severe gyno) they still don't lactate.

I think that progestins upregulate estrogen receptors or aromatase somehow. So I would always use an AI if I am running a high amount of an estrogen converting compound. I am actually right now on deca and tren with low amount of hcg 500iu. No AI. I used 2mg letro/day last cycle, feels great needing 0. No caber no AI. I do this because I have faith in my knowledge and the application of it. Doing a cut now gonna get down pretty low and take some pictures then bulk again.

[MickeyKnox]

The point is showing that with fully developed mammory glands(read severe gyno) they still don't lactate.

I think that progestins upregulate estrogen receptors or aromatase somehow. So I would always use an AI if I am running a high amount of an estrogen converting compound. I am actually right now on deca and tren with low amount of hcg 500iu. No AI. I used 2mg letro/day last cycle, feels great needing 0. No caber no AI. I do this because I have faith in my knowledge and the application of it. Doing a cut now gonna get down pretty low and take some pictures then bulk again.

Fair enough. Im interested in your results after your cycle. Keep the board posted.

[Atomini]

HCG will have an pretty equal amount of aromatase activity as LH. You probably didn't know LH will cause aromatase? So NO, if you can dial in your hCG to mimic NORMAL testosterone levels you shouldn't need an AI. Please provide support for your statements if you wish to further the discussion.

Endocrinol Jpn 1975 Aug;22(4):287-96 Related Articles, Links


Plasma estradiol concentrations and effect of HCG on plasma estradiol and testosterone in normal subjects and patients with endocrine disorders

...In the study of stimulation with human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), 3,000 IU daily for three days in ten normal men, the peripheral concentrations of estradiol showed maximum and fourfold increases 24 hours after the 1st injection of HCG. The testosterone levels, on the other hand, increased stepwise and reached a maximum of about two times preinjection levels 24 hours after the 3rd injection.


Endocrinology 1979 Feb;104(2):285-8 Related Articles, Links


Testicular aromatization in immature rats: localization and stimulation after gonadotropin administration in vivo.

Canick JA, Makris A, Gunsalus GL, Ryan KJ.

Aromatization was measured in testicular microsomal preparations obtained from rats treated 3--4 days with FSH, hCG, or vehicle, hCG, but not FSH, was found consistently to stimulate testicular aromatase activity at least 10-fold. As a marker for FSH action, epididymal androgen-binding protein was assayed and found to be 3 times higher in FSH-treated rats than in either hCG or control rats. hCG, but not FSH or vehicle, stimulated serum testosterone levels more than 100-fold. In all groups, aromatase activity in the microsomal fraction was at least 6 times higher than that found in the mitochondrial fraction. In experiments in which testicular compartments were separated, microsomal preparations from interstitial tissue of hCG-treated rats had 5--7 times more aromatase activity than microsomes from seminiferous tubules and 2--3 times more activity than microsomes from whole testes. It is concluded the hCG administered in vivo can stimulate testicular aromatase activity in immature rats, and the increase in activity is localized in the interstitial tissue.


Nippon Hinyokika Gakkai Zasshi 1997 Jul;88(7):649-57 Related Articles, Links


[A study on testicular aromatase activity--spermatogenic damage in high testicular E2 models of rat]

Akiyama H.

Department of Urology, Okayama University Medical School.

(BACKGROUND): In order to study the influence of testicular estrogen concentration on spermatogenesis, we conducted the following experiments. (METHODS): Eight-week-old male Sprague-Dawley rats were used and two kinds of experiments were prepared. In experiment one (intraperitoneal injection), five groups were set up: control (saline solution), estradiol (E2), human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), aromatase inhibitor (A.I.) and hCG+A.I. group. In experiment two (intratesticular injection), two groups were set up: control (saline solution) and E2 microcrystal suspension (Emcs) group. The experimental period was 28 days. At sacrifice, we evaluated the concentrations of serum testosterone (T) and E2, testicular T and E2, testicular aromatase activity and the seminiferous tubular diameter. (RESULTS): Exp. 1: In the hCG group, the rate of testicular aromatase activity and testicular E2 level were higher and the diameter of seminiferous tubules was smaller than in the control group. However, these changes were not observed in the hCG+A.I. group. Exp. 2: In the Emcs group, testicular E2 level showed an increase without elevation of serum E2 level, and the diameter of seminiferous tubules was atrophic. (CONCLUSION): It was suggested that the increase of the rate of testicular aromatase activity and the following elevation of testicular E2 level is possibly one of the causes of male infertility.

[Lunk1]

The point is showing that with fully developed mammory glands(read severe gyno) they still don't lactate.

I think that progestins upregulate estrogen receptors or aromatase somehow. So I would always use an AI if I am running a high amount of an estrogen converting compound. I am actually right now on deca and tren with low amount of hcg 500iu. No AI. I used 2mg letro/day last cycle, feels great needing 0. No caber no AI. I do this because I have faith in my knowledge and the application of it. Doing a cut now gonna get down pretty low and take some pictures then bulk again.

How is the labido? How is the ability to reach orgasm? How is the energy level? Hunger?

[Sworder]

My cycle results will be based on my diet and training as you know! A couple months in I feel great not having to constantly fight gyno and bloat. Libido is great from the tren and my mood is great, like always

Energy levels are great. Tren stimulates the CNS as you know, which is why it keeps you awake and also why it gives you so much energy even though you only slept 6 hours. Hunger I am trying to keep under control. Cutting.

[Sworder]

@Atomini

What do those studies prove? HCG will increase aromatase? Yes it will I didn't dispute that. What I am arguing is that you seem to think that HCG will aromatase MORE than LH will. I don't think you understand what you are saying or trying to say, I don't understand what I am saying or trying to say to you by saying this.

I think that you are saying that increasing your testosterone via hCG, via testosterone injections or via endogenous testosterone production will increase aromatase activity. Everybody should know that. Do you think that in a side by side comparison of hCG administered 800ng/dl tT and IM testosterone cypionate to 800ng/dl will yield a significant difference in e2? REALLY?

[s.e.bowen]

I love this place!!!!!!

s.e.bowen

[MickeyKnox]

I love this place!!!!!!

s.e.bowen

Lots of different opinions and ideas that can be shared in a mature fashion, mostly.

I don't always agree with Sworder, but i do admire the fact that he thinks outside the box and is not afraid to shake the tree. BUT, you don't want to shake it too hard, otherwise the fruit may fall on top of you.

[kelkel]

Sir Isaac Newton Knox!

[Sworder]

Bodybuilders used to pyramid their steroid cycles? WHY? Who was the guy that explained how a half-life works and how stupid it is to pyramid? Do you think that he was seen as "cancer" because of his arguments? I believe he was. I believe he was intelligent and changed the bodybuilding world for the better.

I will be that guy for you if it helps people cycle in a smarter way. Honestly, overshooting your testosterone and having to use an AI when using trenbolone is dumb. Lets use compounds in a more intelligent fashion if it is possible. If we can mimic our body's own testosterone production almost perfectly we shouldn't need an AI, unless we need it off cycle as well.

[human project]

Tren stick problems won't be caused by lacking androgens. As trenbolone is the best one for the job in regards to libido. There may be other factors which relate to ED.

The only problems I've ever had regarding ED were while on tren..

[Sworder]

The only problems I've ever had regarding ED were while on tren..

Trenbolone binds very strongly to the AR. It wouldn't make sense that it caused dysfunction. Maybe there were other variables you are not accounting for but I am sure that is not the case. This is often why anecdotal evidence is misleading. I really do not mean to say that you are wrong. I am just saying that AR activation in libido specific tissue is one variable of libido, and trenbolone does this much better than testosterone.

[warmouth]

Lets use compounds in a more intelligent fashion if it is possible. If we can mimic our body's own testosterone production almost perfectly we shouldn't need an AI, unless we need it off cycle as well.

Now this I can get behind. I am in full agreement with this statement. If a person is running a test cycle, with test as the primary anabolic, then an AI is for sure a must. If the test is used as a secondary and only for normal function, then the aromatase activity should, in theory, be minimal (unless a highly aromatizing compound is used). I think an AI should still be on hand just in case. Also, new members and guests, this talk and pshyco-babble is for extremely experienced users only. In no way should the subject be followed through by anyone for any reason. Everyone can choose what they want to do to themselves, but this subject is totally against 100 years of AAS evolution. No one will assist you on how to run this protocol. So until further research can be done regarding the topic (by certified professionals, specialists, and so forth), this is only for entertainment purposes and for Sworders "self-evaluation" < lol.