running SERM on cycle

[Squats33]

Thoughts? No time to search at the moment. Benefits? Negatives?

[Lunk1]

Other than Nolva for Gyno reversal then absolutley not!

[MickeyKnox]

Like Lunk said, occasionally Tamoxifen will be included at 10mg/day to ward off potential gyno flare ups for sensitive guys, but not just arbitrarily.

[Squats33]

SERM:
Clomid, stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that
a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone aud
luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's
own testosterone production. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, however
it does also work as an anti-estrogen. How does it work? Because it is
a weak synthetic estrogen, it will bind to the estrogen receptor (ER)
and not cause any problems. At the same time the increase in estrogen
from steroids are blocked from attaching to the ER.

--- Does this not mean that taking clomid on cycle would help out the balls with natural production?

Got that directly from the SERM/AI definition sticky.

[MickeyKnox]

SERM:
Clomid, stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that
a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone aud
luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's
own testosterone production. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, however
it does also work as an anti-estrogen. How does it work? Because it is
a weak synthetic estrogen, it will bind to the estrogen receptor (ER)
and not cause any problems. At the same time the increase in estrogen
from steroids are blocked from attaching to the ER.

--- Does this not mean that taking clomid on cycle would help out the balls with natural production?

Got that directly from the SERM/AI definition sticky.

Im no expert, but i would think that the supraphysiological amounts of exogenous testosterone would supersede the effects of clomid. The quote you're referring to is in relation to PCT, i believe.

[Squats33]

Yes indeed it was in the PCT thread but it doesn't say that it only works during PCT... I believe that's how I understand it. And since it's "weaker" than tamoxifen , I would assume it better to take on cycle with an AI than to take tamoxifen on cycle with an AI....

Just trying to read into it some.

[bigsiv]

This is a good question I asked something similar months back, my thoughts was that if tamoxifen could bind to the breast gland then estrogen would not be able to bind, this would block gyno from starting and free up estrogen (which I've read can AID in gains)

I asked about this and got my head bitten off people assuming I was cycling without A.i which I wasn't lol it was hypothetical question

[Squats33]

Bump. Any other vets wanna chime in?

[Bio-Active]

Tamox is only going to help reduce the gyno symptoms. If you use an AI as suggested it should help eliminate most other sides from elevated E

Bump. Any other vets wanna chime in?

[Peer]

Ralox (Evista) has shown superiority for gynecomastia reversal in clinical trials (adolescent males with gyno), I would recommend this over the other SERMs on cycle.
I think Atomini has the studies posted.

[Sworder]

Ok guys, lets try to get back on track. OP didn't mention nolvadex nor did he mention gyno.

He is talking about Clomid for natural testosterone production ON cycle.

To answer OP, since the clomid blocks certain receptors in the brain "fooling" it that it needs to increase testosterone production I would assume that the overwhelming androgens from your cycle would hinder (LH/FSH induced)testosterone production. You maybe would get a minimal amount, but nothing worth clapping your hands for. It's worth a shot in my opinion, Test LH and FSH at week 6 of a cycle start clomid therapy and check LH/FSH again at week 10. The amount would probably be minimal, I wouldn't do it as hCG would be a much better option. It isn't that bad of an idea though to try to keep the pituitary producing SOME LH/FSH though, I just doubt the probability of success.

[MickeyKnox]

Ralox (Evista) has shown superiority for gynecomastia reversal in clinical trials (adolescent males with gyno), I would recommend this over the other SERMs on cycle.
I think Atomini has the studies posted.

Correct. It has 10 times the binding affinity than Tamox.

[Lunk1]

Ok guys, lets try to get back on track. OP didn't mention nolvadex nor did he mention gyno.

He is talking about Clomid for natural testosterone production ON cycle.

To answer OP, since the clomid blocks certain receptors in the brain "fooling" it that it needs to increase testosterone production I would assume that the overwhelming androgens from your cycle would hinder (LH/FSH induced)testosterone production. You maybe would get a minimal amount, but nothing worth clapping your hands for. It's worth a shot in my opinion, Test LH and FSH at week 6 of a cycle start clomid therapy and check LH/FSH again at week 10. The amount would probably be minimal, I wouldn't do it as hCG would be a much better option. It isn't that bad of an idea though to try to keep the pituitary producing SOME LH/FSH though, I just doubt the probability of success.

I am sure glad you guys are willing to be test subjects..I will stick to known and proven protocals!

[Sworder]

I am sure glad you guys are willing to be test subjects..I will stick to known and proven protocals!

What is the known and proven protocol for producing LH/FSH on cycle? I wouldn't do what OP is suggesting, if he wants to pursue it and take the labs, go for it. I would be interested in seeing the results, I don't think they would be significant though.

[Squats33]

Because the primary goal here with hCG or Clomid would be to produce natty test. I'd be more than happy to let y'all know if the clomid works. Then again as in my log I have noticed little to none in terms of shrinkage. Although I notice it, it's nothing major, more being picky than anything.

Just curious because gyno is not the problem and based on what I have read on clomid, it should help with production.... It is my first cycle, and I have decided no HCG in order to see what works best for me. Would like to give the clomid a try because I'm noticing minimal sides. I am 27 days into my cycle as well.

I'll start the clomid either week 5 (Thursday) or week 6 (the following Thursday). It will be minimal, I'll start out EOD with it. Feels free to check out the log in the members section.

[Squats33]

Found something interesting



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22044663

Abstract
Study Type - Therapy (case series) Level of Evidence 4. What's known on the subject? and What does the study add? Hypogonadism is a prevalent problem, increasing in frequency as men age. It is most commonly treated by testosterone supplementation therapy but in younger patients this can lead to testicular atrophy with subsequent exogenous testosterone dependency and may impair spermatogenesis. Clomiphene citrate (CC) may be used as an alternative treatment in these patients with hypogonadism when maintenance of fertility is desired. This study shows that CC is a safe and efficacious drug to use as an alternative to exogenous testosterone. Not only have we validated previous findings of other papers but have proven our findings over a much longer period (mean duration of treatment 19 months). This prospective study is the largest to date assessing both the objective hormone response to CC therapy as well as the subjective response based on a validated questionnaire.
OBJECTIVE:
• To prospectively assess the andrological outcomes of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) treatment in hypogonadal men.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
• We prospectively evaluated 86 men with hypogonadism (HG) as confirmed by two consecutive early morning testosterone measurements <300 ng/dL. • The cohort included all men with HG presenting to our clinic between 2002 and 2006 who, after an informed discussion, elected to have CC therapy. CC was commenced at 25 mg every other day and titrated to 50 mg every other day. The target testosterone level was 550 ± 50 ng/dL. • Testosterone (free and total), sex hormone binding globulin, oestradiol, luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone were measured at baseline and during treatment on all patients. Once the desired testosterone level was achieved, testosterone/gonadotropin levels were measured twice per year. • To assess subjective response to treatment, the androgen deficiency in aging males (ADAM) questionnaire was administered before treatment and during follow-up.
RESULTS:
• Patients' mean (standard deviation [sd]; range) age was 29 (3; 22-37) years. Infertility was the most common reason (64%) for seeking treatment. The mean (sd) duration of CC treatment was 19 (14) months. • At the last evaluation, 70% of men were using 25 mg CC every other day, and the remainder were using 50 mg every other day. • All mean testosterone and gonadotropin measurements significantly increased during treatment. • Subjectively, there was an improvement in all questions (except loss of height) on the ADAM questionnaire. More than half the patients had an improvement in at least three symptoms. • There were no major side effects recorded and the presence of a varicocele did not have an impact on the response to CC.
CONCLUSION:
• Long-term follow-up of CC treatment for HG shows that it appears to be an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation in men wishing to preserve their fertility.

[Squats33]

Bump to see what yall think

[BR0DIE]

This is a good question I asked something similar months back, my thoughts was that if tamoxifen could bind to the breast gland then estrogen would not be able to bind, this would block gyno from starting and free up estrogen (which I've read can AID in gains)

I asked about this and got my head bitten off people assuming I was cycling without A.i which I wasn't lol it was hypothetical question

Arimidex gives me hairloss so what you described is exactly what I plan to do on my next cycle. Nolva will prevent gyno and I'll just have to deal with the bloat and other estro sides for a few weeks.

[bigsiv]

Arimidex gives me hairloss so what you described is exactly what I plan to do on my next cycle. Nolva will prevent gyno and I'll just have to deal with the bloat and other estro sides for a few weeks.

Pm me a couple of weeks before you start and I will go through a proper protocol with you. I've been looking at this for a while now I'm gonna try it next year. I've still got a few tweaks and info to go through first but should have a good idea soon

[bigsiv]

Arimidex gives me hairloss so what you described is exactly what I plan to do on my next cycle. Nolva will prevent gyno and I'll just have to deal with the bloat and other estro sides for a few weeks.

Brodie have a quick look at the thread a few down Starting test dose without A.i? And have s look at the natural estrogen/prolactin suppression I mention. See what you think!

[Squats33]

What do you guys think about the article I found?

[Sworder]

It doesn't apply because you have excessive androgens. I have already explained everything in my post, re-read it until you understand it.

[Squats33]

It doesn't apply because you have excessive androgens. I have already explained everything in my post, re-read it until you understand it.

I enjoyed your explanation but I was seeing of anyone else would chime in.

[seriouslifter]

go with armidex at .25mg EOD

[SportbikerKid]

Alot of guys doing very heavy cycles will run 10-20mg nolva ED in addition to running letro/stane. If I was running a moderate-high dose of a compound that has a high aromitization rate, I would definitely consider throwing in 10mg nolva.

[SportbikerKid]

Alot of guys doing very heavy cycles will run 10-20mg nolva ED in addition to running letro/stane. If I was running a moderate-high dose of a compound that has a high aromitization rate, I would definitely consider throwing in 10mg nolva.

edit: I would be very hesitant to run nolva with a 19-nor because I believe it can actually agravate prolactin induced gyno

[Sworder]

edit: I would be very hesitant to run nolva with a 19-nor because i believe it can actually agravate prolactin induced gyno

lmao

[Squats33]

lmao

I'm done with this thread lol. Nobody reads I suppose.