Test cycle, when does use cross the line to abuse?

**boxingfan30** · 12-09-2012, 10:32 PM

I'm just curious. I will likely start out with a 500 mg per week cycle as MuscleInc had suggested to me. I was also considering a 250 mg with a lighter dose of Var, but I would probably start with just doing the test as I was told that you could pinpoint side effects better.

My question is actually out of curiousity though... if 500 mg is considered use, what amount would be considered abuse? Like how much do a lot of these guys take that wind up with heart issues and other major side effects?

**kronik420** · 12-09-2012, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

I'm just curious. I will likely start out with a 500 mg per week cycle as MuscleInc had suggested to me. I was also considering a 250 mg with a lighter dose of Var, but I would probably start with just doing the test as I was told that you could pinpoint side effects better.

My question is actually out of curiousity though... if 500 mg is considered use, what amount would be considered abuse? Like how much do a lot of these guys take that wind up with heart issues and other major side effects?

depends on your point of view, some may say anything over a TRT dose is abuse....

**alexISthrowed** · 12-09-2012, 10:40 PM

There are more advanced guys on here taking very large doses, but they are experienced. I would not consider this abuse. I think rec drugs and diuretics come in to play with a lot of the pro bodybuilder deaths but that's just an assumption. I would consider abuse someone using aas at any dosage without proper knowledge, maturity, and respect for your health.

**kronik420** · 12-09-2012, 10:42 PM

if you truely wanted to be 'healthy' you wouldn't use AAS for any reason other than TRT..

**Lunk1** · 12-09-2012, 10:43 PM

I'm one of the ones Kronik speaks of. If you are using illegal drugs without a prescription or deviating from that prescription then by definition it's drug abuse. The amount you abuse doesn't change the terminology!

**boxingfan30** · 12-09-2012, 10:45 PM

interesting perspectives here.

**MickeyKnox** · 12-09-2012, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I'm one of the ones Kronik speaks of. If you are using illegal drugs without a prescription or deviating from that prescription then by definition it's drug abuse. The amount you abuse doesn't change the terminology!

The transparent truth is, anyone who cycles abuses AAS. But those of us that take the time to educate ourselves to be responsible, mature, health conscious, don't quite see it that way. We chose to view AAS use as a healthy alternative to other drugs that could produce similar results, like PH's for instance.

I believe there is enough information available via the internet and other medias, to properly educate yourself with everything you could possibly need to use AAS responsibly. This includes determining whether or not you are a candidate for AAS through blood work and health hx, or if there are any health risks involved.

Im referring to cycling here, not Rx TRT.

Be smart, be safe.

**MuscleInk** · 12-09-2012, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I'm one of the ones Kronik speaks of. If you are using illegal drugs without a prescription or deviating from that prescription then by definition it's drug abuse. The amount you abuse doesn't change the terminology!

But what if you could write the prescription and yet take more than the therapeutic dose? Abuse?

**Soar** · 12-09-2012, 11:09 PM

Any use would be abuse no? Unless TRT I'd think. It's no different from shooting heroin if you think about it. Both are illegal drugs.

**MickeyKnox** · 12-09-2012, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

But what if you could write the prescription and yet take more than the therapeutic dose? Abuse?

Good one ^^. The perks of being a physician.

Just write it for what you need MI.

**408gt91** · 12-09-2012, 11:16 PM

When your cycle lasts longer than two terms in the presidency
Dan duchaine

**alexISthrowed** · 12-09-2012, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Soar

Any use would be abuse no? Unless TRT I'd think. It's no different from shooting heroin if you think about it. Both are illegal drugs.

If you look at it in that sense yes. Morally I'd say there nothing alike, but everyone would have a different opinion on this. I'm sure Dan hooten thinks steroids are just as bad as heroin or crack. A lot of people's views are flawed by our media. If you consider it in the legal sense taking steroids would be considered abuse, but in a my personal non important opinion based of my own personal morals and beliefs, steroid use by knowledgable responsible people is not abuse.

**Metalject** · 12-09-2012, 11:46 PM

Defining a specific dose as abuse is not the best way to look at it IMO. Most men can tolerate high levels of testosterone very well. How high will dependent on the man in question. With that in mind, steroid abuse is defined as any use that causes you harm. If it's not causing you harm it would be hard to call it abuse.

**boxingfan30** · 12-10-2012, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by Metalject

Defining a specific dose as abuse is not the best way to look at it IMO. Most men can tolerate high levels of testosterone very well. How high will dependent on the man in question. With that in mind, steroid abuse is defined as any use that causes you harm. If it's not causing you harm it would be hard to call it abuse.

That's an interesting point actually. Everything that I've read only shows benefits over harm when it comes to test, by itself I mean.

**boxingfan30** · 12-10-2012, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Soar

Any use would be abuse no? Unless TRT I'd think. It's no different from shooting heroin if you think about it. Both are illegal drugs.

Both are illegal yes, but AAS has shown a lot of promise in the medical world... namely test. I don't know what good opiates may do aside from people using them as highly addictive pain killers that are all to often abused by many.

**boxingfan30** · 12-10-2012, 03:19 AM

By the way, for me, while it is illegal. My thought to try it is for several reasons... namely my constant mood swings that I didn't used to have. Depressed more easily (even though i'm on antidepressants), ability to put on weight easier, etc. A lot of these would be considered symptoms of low T or even GH and while my total test at 636 isn't low... for some reason it just seems like I don't feel like myself as much. MuscleINC and some others I think have seen my bloodwork. Perhaps the GH is to low. 0.0-2.9 was the range. Mine came back as 0.2.

**alexISthrowed** · 12-10-2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

By the way, for me, while it is illegal. My thought to try it is for several reasons... namely my constant mood swings that I didn't used to have. Depressed more easily (even though i'm on antidepressants), ability to put on weight easier, etc. A lot of these would be considered symptoms of low T or even GH and while my total test at 636 isn't low... for some reason it just seems like I don't feel like myself as much. MuscleINC and some others I think have seen my bloodwork. Perhaps the GH is to low. 0.0-2.9 was the range. Mine came back as 0.2.

Honestly if you have issues with mood swings and depression I'd get to the bottom of those issues before trying aas. Aas is not going to help your mood swings or depression and the hormone fluctuation in the beginning and during pct could make things worse. I'm a pretty level headed guy and on higher androgens there's definitely some added aggression. I also noticed some slight depression during pct when I used to cycle and I have no history of depression. There's going to be a point where your test levels are extremely low well your body gets things kicking again.

**boxingfan30** · 12-10-2012, 01:04 PM

yeah, that's why i'm just thinking everything over a lot before making any sudden decisions about it.

**alexISthrowed** · 12-10-2012, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

yeah, that's why i'm just thinking everything over a lot before making any sudden decisions about it.

Hormone fluctuation is no joke and you need to be 100% on top of your emotions if you want to do this IMO.

**ThaDude007** · 12-10-2012, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by alexISthrowed

If you look at it in that sense yes. Morally I'd say there nothing alike, but everyone would have a different opinion on this. I'm sure Dan hooten thinks steroids are just as bad as heroin or crack. A lot of people's views are flawed by our media. If you consider it in the legal sense taking steroids would be considered abuse, but in a my personal non important opinion based of my own personal morals and beliefs, steroid use by knowledgable responsible people is not abuse.

Agreed... How could you even compare heroin to steroids . That's like saying steroids are a gateway drug.

**kelkel** · 12-10-2012, 01:40 PM

We're talking cycling here so, IMHO, use becomes abuse when health becomes an issue.

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by ThaDude007

Agreed... How could you even compare heroin to steroids. That's like saying steroids are a gateway drug.

Steroids could be a gateway drug...cigerettes are a gateway drug. Anytime you use a mild drug there is a chance of a person seeking out other forms of drugs because of the enjoyment they recieve whether mental of physical!

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

We're talking cycling here so, IMHO, use becomes abuse when health becomes an issue.

Amen Kel...
As I said...anything more than a prescription dose from a legal medical proffesional is abuse!

I'm not throwing stones I;m just stating reality!

**Atomini** · 12-10-2012, 02:45 PM

Well, I had a nice beautiful reply all typed up explaining the difference between use and abuse medically when it comes to drugs and substances, but then I clicked something that took me out of this page and lost everything. I'm not typing all that shit up again. Please excuse me while I go smash my keyboard against the concrete, and then proceeed to cry as I bash my head against the drywall in my room about 30 or 40 times.

And just to let you know, abuse does not mean anything aove a TRT dose. Abuse is also NOT defined as anything other than a prescribed dose by a medical proffessional.

I'm done here, I hate computers sometimes. Excuse me while I abuse my head with the wall.

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Atomini

Well, I had a nice beautiful reply all typed up explaining the difference between use and abuse medically when it comes to drugs and substances, but then I clicked something that took me out of this page and lost everything. I'm not typing all that shit up again. Please excuse me while I go smash my keyboard against the concrete, and then proceeed to cry as I bash my head against the drywall in my room about 30 or 40 times.

And just to let you know, abuse does not mean anything aove a TRT dose. Abuse is also NOT defined as anything other than a prescribed dose by a medical proffessional.

I'm done here, I hate computers sometimes. Excuse me while I abuse my head with the wall.

I would love to hear how or why you believe that using (in the US) illegal drugs, without a prescription, is anthing short of abuse. Too say anthing different sounds like an alcoholic justifying a 6 pack a day or a rec drug user saying one bump is ok...as long as I have a job and take care of my responsabilities

**Atomini** · 12-10-2012, 03:19 PM

When i'm done being pissed off about losing my big beautiful post, MAYBE i'll explain. I'm just too sad and angry right now that I lost all that hard work and time I put into that post I wanted you all to read

.

**MickeyKnox** · 12-10-2012, 04:43 PM

That sucks!!! I would have loved to have read that!!!

Next time your fingers are about to have a mind of their own, please compile it in Word or something similar..for our sakes..

**John Andrew** · 12-10-2012, 05:35 PM

Abuse! Usage which is harmful to the body, Even the AMA cannot show any research proving anything is abuse.

To hell with politics.

Mindless morons say abuse is to break the law. The same morons behind abolition. That worked well.

Be careful, check with your doctor about your blood. Train hard and see what works best for you! Do your PCt and common sense. Do not harm your body. Good luck. John

**likelifting** · 12-10-2012, 05:44 PM

I am cycling testosterone to get healthier. I want to lose some weight and tone my muscles. It has helped me greatly. I know there are risks. I made my choice to cycle anyway. I think the positives outweight the risks. We shall see.... I don't think I'm abusing.

**MickeyKnox** · 12-10-2012, 05:55 PM

"Abuse is the improper usage or treatment for a bad purpose, often to unfairly or improperly gain benefit..."

"The term "drug abuse" does not exclude dependency, but is otherwise used in a similar manner in nonmedical contexts. The terms have a huge range of definitions related to taking a psychoactive drug or performance enhancing drug for a non-therapeutic or non-medical effect."

**diabolicsoul** · 12-10-2012, 05:59 PM

Ignoring your personal health and taking test for other reasons other than TRT.

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by likelifting

I am cycling testosterone to get healthier. I want to lose some weight and tone my muscles. It has helped me greatly. I know there are risks. I made my choice to cycle anyway. I think the positives outweight the risks. We shall see.... I don't think I'm abusing.

Spoken like a drug addict lol.

I have spoke to hundreds of rec drug users in my life time and they ALL say the exact same shyt as everyone here trying to claim there use for vanity purposes are not abuse. Keep repeating it enough and you will believe it.

I use plenty myself so I'm not tossing rocks from my glass house...but I am honest about the fact I know I am abusing a performance enhancing drug to gain advantage by either gaining more or gaining faster than a guy who is not "abusing"!

Just be honest with yourselves ppl...Hi my name is Lunk and I abuse steroids ! See...that's not too difficult, now you try

**boxingfan30** · 12-10-2012, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Spoken like a drug addict lol.

I have spoke to hundreds of rec drug users in my life time and they ALL say the exact same shyt as everyone here trying to claim there use for vanity purposes are not abuse. Keep repeating it enough and you will believe it.

I use plenty myself so I'm not tossing rocks from my glass house...but I am honest about the fact I know I am abusing a performance enhancing drug to gain advantage by either gaining more or gaining faster than a guy who is not "abusing"!

Just be honest with yourselves ppl...Hi my name is Lunk and I abuse steroids ! See...that's not too difficult, now you try

So, do you feel that if one (i'll use myself as an example) has his bloodwork done and it came back "normal" free test is a little low and free total test is out of the low range by just a few points, but I still know that I don't feel quite like me and I have signs of declining test, BUT the endo that I saw, didn't want to prescribe me anything because my total test was said to be "normal" at 796 (which dropped when I hurt my back further and couldn't do my cardio to 636), I am wrong for taking my own health into my own hands rather than rely on a Doctor who doesn't specialize in TRT, and openly admits that?

**stpete** · 12-10-2012, 07:30 PM

Just let me step in here and remind everyone that there is no discussion of rec drug talk here.

Now, AAS abuse.... If a person knows that AAS is, or will more than likely cause harm to themselves or their loved ones, this is abuse. for instance, my wife loves me. she loves me when i cycle too. Even on 1,200mgs test EW. Why? Cause i'm still stpete. Now, enter 500-600mgs tren . All of a sudden, my wife hates me. Why? Cause my diet gets all out of whack, i sweat like a whore in church at night, but mostly, cause it turns stpete into "mean stpete." So, if i choose to use it i call that abuse and reckless cause i know what's going to happen but choose to do so anyway. Selfish. And for what? To lift an extra few lbs. just to satisfy my ego? Only time i can try to justify it is for a comp. but those are gone after next year anyway.

That's my take on it anyway. I just used tren as an example, it could actually be a number of compounds.

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

So, do you feel that if one (i'll use myself as an example) has his bloodwork done and it came back "normal" free test is a little low and free total test is out of the low range by just a few points, but I still know that I don't feel quite like me and I have signs of declining test, BUT the endo that I saw, didn't want to prescribe me anything because my total test was said to be "normal" at 796 (which dropped when I hurt my back further and couldn't do my cardio to 636), I am wrong for taking my own health into my own hands rather than rely on a Doctor who doesn't specialize in TRT, and openly admits that?

Those are still very normal test levels...if your not "feeling right" perhaps it's something different. You could always get a second or 3rd or 4th opinion. Many ppl Doc shop till they get what they want.

Let's say for a moment I cave and say fine..if your going to treat yourself with a small trt dose to bring levels to a "normal range" then that isn't abuse...the reality is MOST ppl posting are not using TRT doses, they are cycling BB doses.

I know a number of guys who have had test levels drop from age but are still well within normal range. A 45 y.o. should not expect to have the test levels of a 25 y.o. and I'm sure alot of endo's take that into consideration...that's why there is an acceptable RANGE vs an acceptable number!

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by stpete

Just let me step in here and remind everyone that there is no discussion of rec drug talk here.

Now, AAS abuse.... If a person knows that AAS is, or will more than likely cause harm to themselves or their loved ones, this is abuse. for instance, my wife loves me. she loves me when i cycle too. Even on 1,200mgs test EW. Why? Cause i'm still stpete. Now, enter 500-600mgs tren . All of a sudden, my wife hates me. Why? Cause my diet gets all out of whack, i sweat like a whore in church at night, but mostly, cause it turns stpete into "mean stpete." So, if i choose to use it i call that abuse and reckless cause i know what's going to happen but choose to do so anyway. Selfish. And for what? To lift an extra few lbs. just to satisfy my ego? Only time i can try to justify it is for a comp. but those are gone after next year anyway.

That's my take on it anyway. I just used tren as an example, it could actually be a number of compounds.

Keep in mind Pete we all know the risks associated with AAS use even if everything is done right. Like enlargement of the heart for example, yet we shake our heads at that and choose to continue to use a very high dose of test that far exceeds the amount neccessary to function properly as a man. Thus taking risks just for vanity sake! To me this is the very definition of addictive and abusive behavior. I want to point out again I'm not casting stones at anyone who chooses this lifestyle but keeping things in true perspective is important to me. I am abusing performanve enhancement drugs to get bigger, faster, stronger and yet we all preach how ppl can reach their goals natty with proper diet and training. But I'm choosing to illegally use higher doses of AAS than any Doc would prescribe to gain an personal advantage. Sounds like abuse...

**likelifting** · 12-10-2012, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Spoken like a drug addict lol.

I have spoke to hundreds of rec drug users in my life time and they ALL say the exact same shyt as everyone here trying to claim there use for vanity purposes are not abuse. Keep repeating it enough and you will believe it.

I use plenty myself so I'm not tossing rocks from my glass house...but I am honest about the fact I know I am abusing a performance enhancing drug to gain advantage by either gaining more or gaining faster than a guy who is not "abusing"!

Just be honest with yourselves ppl...Hi my name is Lunk and I abuse steroids ! See...that's not too difficult, now you try

Good point.

**boxingfan30** · 12-10-2012, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Those are still very normal test levels...if your not "feeling right" perhaps it's something different. You could always get a second or 3rd or 4th opinion. Many ppl Doc shop till they get what they want.

Let's say for a moment I cave and say fine..if your going to treat yourself with a small trt dose to bring levels to a "normal range" then that isn't abuse...the reality is MOST ppl posting are not using TRT doses, they are cycling BB doses.

I know a number of guys who have had test levels drop from age but are still well within normal range. A 45 y.o. should not expect to have the test levels of a 25 y.o. and I'm sure alot of endo's take that into consideration...that's why there is an acceptable RANGE vs an acceptable number!

The problem with my not feeling right is that I have had every blood test known to man done. I am very honest with my Doctor and have told her that I may use AAS. She agreed that if I tried it to be careful and to let her know how it went.

When she sent me to one endo, he had given his nurse a list of tests to take. When I asked him about E2, he said "why? are you growing boobs?" At that point I realized I would likely need to see someone else.

**Lunk1** · 12-10-2012, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

The problem with my not feeling right is that I have had every blood test known to man done. I am very honest with my Doctor and have told her that I may use AAS. She agreed that if I tried it to be careful and to let her know how it went.

When she sent me to one endo, he had given his nurse a list of tests to take. When I asked him about E2, he said "why? are you growing boobs?" At that point I realized I would likely need to see someone else.

Yes ...I remember you posting that...have you tried an AI to see if your E2 level is high???

**Metalject** · 12-10-2012, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Amen Kel...
As I said...anything more than a prescription dose from a legal medical proffesional is abuse!

I'm not throwing stones I;m just stating reality!

While the law may state what abuse is, the law itself is not the end all be all to defining something. The legality or illegality of something is not what makes it right or wrong or in this case is not what truly defines use versus abuse.

When it comes to steroids , look at this example. For decades Parabolan was used successfully in numerous therapeutic treatment plans in Europe. However, during this time it was not approved for human use in the U.S. Does this mean everyone who used it in Europe and legally so was abusing it because U.S. law deemed it as abuse?