Forget Caber/Prami for Tren...Try B6

[MuttonChop]

I am on 300mg/wk of Tren E and 100mg/wk of Test E.

Decided to not use Caber or Prami and see how well B6 works. Having fantastic prolactin control so far with just 600mg of Vitamin B6 a day. No AI being used

If you are experienced with Tren, give it a try. Why take caber or prami when B6 does the same thing for 0.01% of the cost?

Of course, note the TRT levels of Test E. Don't know how well B6 works with higher levels of estrogen in body. I would still suggest an AI + B6 rather than AI + Caber/Prami.

The only negative side effect I feel is a slight tingling sensation in my fingers and sometimes in my chest. This is due to the effect of supra levels of B6 on nerves. It apparently shouldn't be a problem if B6 is taken for 10 weeks or less.

Libido is through the roof. Waking up every morning with a hoisted flag.

[The Bear 79]

Interesting.

Can you explain how / why it works please?

[The Bear 79]

I'm inclined to believe it's the AI that's controlling your prl levels, but I am still interested none the less to learn what you know about how B6 can do the same.

[MuttonChop]

I'm inclined to believe it's the AI that's controlling your prl levels, but I am still interested none the less to learn what you know about how B6 can do the same.

Sorry, should have mentioned: I am not using any AI

[The Bear 79]

Sorry, should have mentioned: I am not using any AI

Excellent, now my interest is peaked................SPILL IT chop...........

[MuttonChop]

Vitamin B6 is a surprisingly effective prolactin inhibitor that is extremely cheap and safe: One human study showed a single 300mg dosage of B6 exerts ‘a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect’ which causes a ‘significant decrease of plasma prolactin’(1);

Another found that 300mg of B6 taken twice a day by 10 normal women lowered prolactin levels and slightly but significantly raised growth hormone levels. The authors concluded: ‘The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to be mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level’(2);

Another study found B6 to significantly reduce ‘opioids-induced hyperprolactinemia’(3);

This study on men found that ‘Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise’(4);

And a study on male rats found that, ‘Pyridoxine hydrochloride significantly suppressed the chlorpromazine-induced prolactin rise (p less than 0.01). However, the suppression was significantly less than that produced by bromocriptine (p less than 0.01)’(5).

I had this saved but I can't find the studies cited. I will do a quick search and see if I can find them.

[MuttonChop]

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6


Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.

Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.

A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.

===============================
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5

Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.

Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.

=====================================
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8

[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]

[Article in Italian]

Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.

The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove.
====================================

[faither]

Sound good

[The Bear 79]

Great find Mutton, thanx for sharing.
But how are sure this method is controlling E2? I deduce that is your assumption based on the fact that you're not using an AI..........but I see nothing that indicates B6 effecting estrogen.

[The Bear 79]

Yes come on you can't make a statement like that with no back up .

lol..............3 minutes before your post, he posted the back up.........look above you........lol

[faither]

lol..............3 minutes before your post, he posted the back up.........look above you........lol

You got me lol

[MuttonChop]

Great find Mutton, thanx for sharing.
But how are sure this method is controlling E2? I deduce that is your assumption based on the fact that you're not using an AI..........but I see nothing that indicates B6 effecting estrogen.

Bear, B6 actually does nothing to lower estrogen. This is why I mentioned that I am on TRT levels of Test. 100-150mg/wk of Test should not produce enough estrogen to need an AI.

If you are running high levels of Test or other Aromatising compounds, I would suggest adding Aromasin and B6. The Aromasin will reduce the Estrogen and the B6 will reduce the prolactin. It will still be much much cheaper than running Aromasin and Caber/Prami.

[The Bear 79]

Bear, B6 actually does nothing to lower estrogen. This is why I mentioned that I am on TRT levels of Test. 100-150mg/wk of Test should not produce enough estrogen to need an AI.

If you are running high levels of Test or other Aromatising compounds, I would suggest adding Aromasin and B6. The Aromasin will reduce the Estrogen and the B6 will reduce the prolactin. It will still be much much cheaper than running Aromasin and Caber/Prami.

Ah. I could have figured that one out myself, guess I missed it, sorry.

Thank you again for sharing brother, great find, I'm gonna dig much deeper into this.

[jimmyinkedup]

I may have a couple things on this. I will look for them.

[UnderTheRose]

Great post Chop.

Im planning on starting a similar dose of Tren A & Test C cycle soon and will try the B6 instead of prami.

Are you pinning ED or EOD? What dose are your B6 caps and what times during the day to you take?

Thanks!

[clarky.]

Thats really interesting good read.

[MuttonChop]

Great post Chop.

Im planning on starting a similar dose of Tren A & Test C cycle soon and will try the B6 instead of prami.

Are you pinning ED or EOD? What dose are your B6 caps and what times during the day to you take?

Thanks!

I would still suggest getting and keeping the Prami on hand until you know for a fact B6 does the job for you at your doses.

My B6 comes in 100mg pressed tabs. CAD $6 for 100 tablets. Could have gotten it cheaper but I was lazy.

The studies show best results when 2 doses of 300mg are taken spread apart in the day. I personally take 300mg as soon as I wake up and 300mg right before I hit my bed. I have tried 3 doses a day too to stop the tingling but it didn't do much.

I am on Tren E, not Tren A. I do 2x shots a week. But you should the exact same results with Tren A, as long as you are using sensible doses (No prolactin sides for me at 300mg/wk of Tren).

[bigsiv]

I read a good article about natural prolactin inhibitors but can't seem to find it. Although I remember that a combination of natural herbs reduced prolactin build up.

The herbs were ginko biloba, Korean ginseng, vit E and B6

I think there was a couple more i will try and find the article it was a good read

[MuttonChop]

List of supplements known to reduce prolactin (I can't vouch for any of these except for Vitamin B6. This was taken from somewhere and put into my notes) :

Primary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:
1) Vitamin B6
2) Vitamin E
3) SAM-e

Secondary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:
1) Ginseng extract
2) Maca powder
3) Ashwagandha
4) Mucuna pruriens
5) Zinc
6) Ginkgo Biloba

[kelkel]

There are many studies on this on pubmed. Unfortunately most are from the 70's and early 80's but hey, B6 is still B6. Curious Mutt if you happen to know where your E2 is running at? Many people on even that low a dosage still need a minimal amount of AI. Don't judge your AI level only by nip sensitivity as that would be a mistake.

Remember also high doses can cause numbness like I believe you stated, and a loss of coordination (picking up that little bugger may become a biatch)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/562688

Easy to find list here:

Primary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:

1) Vitamin B6
2) Vitamin E
3) SAM-e

Secondary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:

1) Ginseng extract
2) Maca powder
3) Ashwagandha
4) Mucuna pruriens
5) Zinc
6) Ginkgo Biloba

Possibly add calcium d-Glucarate to this but I have to dig a little deeper..

Good post Mutt!

[panntastic]

Doesn't to much b6 have an effect on the CNS?

[MuttonChop]

There are many studies on this on pubmed. Unfortunately most are from the 70's and early 80's but hey, B6 is still B6. Curious Mutt if you happen to know where your E2 is running at? Many people on even that low a dosage still need a minimal amount of AI. Don't judge your AI level only by nip sensitivity as that would be a mistake.

Remember also high doses can cause numbness like I believe you stated, and a loss of coordination (picking up that little bugger may become a biatch)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/562688

Easy to find list here:

Primary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:

1) Vitamin B6
2) Vitamin E
3) SAM-e

Secondary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:

1) Ginseng extract
2) Maca powder
3) Ashwagandha
4) Mucuna pruriens
5) Zinc
6) Ginkgo Biloba

Possibly add calcium d-Glucarate to this but I have to dig a little deeper..

Good post Mutt!

I am getting my bloodwork done soon and I will post my results here. I am very very sensitive to Estrogen and 10mg ED of Dbol can potentially give me gyno in a week. Hence, I am very confident about the general range of my levels.

I have already felt the numbness and loss of co-ordination from the B6. I remember walking like I was drunk like 2 days ago and it confused me as to why...now I know. But these have been rare. It is the tingling that is more common. I am not too worried as there are tons of long term studies and none show lingering side effects.

If anything, I might do 5 weeks of B6 and then 5 weeks of caber/prami on higher dosed Tren cycles. It will still save me money and I will only be subjecting my body to 5 weeks of caber/prami (I hate drug cascades...)

I will look into d-Glucarate. Thanks.

[kelkel]

Excellent MC. Unusual to be able to combine less cost with less sides so it's good to see. Remember with the low dose caber etc. at the small amounts needed for our purpose there really are no sides to speak of.

[Perfect]

Lower aromatase activity following supplements to use.
Zinc 50mg daily
Acetyl-L-carnitine 1000-2000mg daily.
Muira Puama 850mg daily.
Chrysin 1500mg daily.
Piperine 10mg daily.
Quercetin 500-1000mg daily.

[warmouth]

I have heard this B6 issue many time over the last year of being here. It is interesting to say the least. I take B6 daily in low doses anyways, but I think that most who use caber/prami use it for prolactin issues first, sexual sides second. I think that the sexual sides that caber/prami is known for is what most people like about the compounds. Plus the half life on caber is awesome. I personally like taking B6 wether on or off cycle, in small doses.

[Lunk1]

The amount of B6 needed to effectively control prolactin can have some very negetive effects!

[warmouth]

The amount of B6 needed to effectively control prolactin can have some very negetive effects!

You are absolutely correct Lunk! This is why I keep it on the low side. It can cause palpitations and irregular heart beats to people sensitive to stimulants. Not that it is much of a stim in itself, but if a person has a pre existing heart condition, this could be a problem.

[panntastic]

The amount of B6 needed to effectively control prolactin can have some very negetive effects!

I knew I wasn't going crazy
Extremely high doses can kill off nerve endings aswell if I remember correctly

[warmouth]

Yup. And lead to increases in cholesterol from what my dr told me. Not sure if it was related directly with the B6 or the increased appetite it can sometimes cause. It makes me hungrier than B12.

[kelkel]

Personally I think caber is awesome on cycle or off.

[Lunk1]

Personally I think caber is awesome on cycle or off.

Is a shorter refractory time important for multi masterbation days

[kelkel]

Is a shorter refractory time important for multi masterbation days

The word of the day calender is really working out well for you I see!

To your point: I refuse to answer. Cop didn't see it, I didn't do it.

[stpete]

The amount of B6 needed to effectively control prolactin can have some very negetive effects!

Nothing you or i would be concerned with. Can you tell me of said side effects?

You are absolutely correct Lunk! This is why I keep it on the low side. It can cause palpitations and irregular heart beats to people sensitive to stimulants. Not that it is much of a stim in itself, but if a person has a pre existing heart condition, this could be a problem.

if you have a hear condition.....Maybe a lot of things aren't for you. haha..

[Lunk1]

Nothing you or i would be concerned with. Can you tell me of said side effects?



if you have a hear condition.....Maybe a lot of things aren't for you. haha..

Neurological nerve damage can occur (dosage and time dependent) as well as excess B vitamins are known to cause some types of kidney stones...

[warmouth]

if you have a hear condition.....Maybe a lot of things aren't for you. haha..

Well, I cant argue from that point of view

[MuttonChop]

The nerve damage is very minimal and reverts itself very quickly after drug cessation. I will post up the relevant study tomorrow. Goodnight. =)

[Lunk1]

The nerve damage is very minimal and reverts itself very quickly after drug cessation. I will post up the relevant study tomorrow. Goodnight. =)

Correct...depending on lenght of use the damage can revert in normally 6 months or so....

[lovbyts]

The nerve damage is very minimal and reverts itself very quickly after drug cessation. I will post up the relevant study tomorrow. Goodnight. =)

With that possibility what is the real advantage over Caber/Prami or an AI besides cost then since Prami and AI dont really have any negative sides most of the time?

[MuttonChop]

Correct...depending on lenght of use the damage can revert in normally 6 months or so....

If you are correct, this is alarming. Can you please post your source?

I am trying to find the study that stated something like 2 weeks for returning to baseline but I can't find it in my notes.

[Lunk1]

If you are correct, this is alarming. Can you please post your source?

I am trying to find the study that stated something like 2 weeks for returning to baseline but I can't find it in my notes.

I will indeed post it in a bit....just left gym and need food