orals and liver protectant?

[TYHO127]

Its okay to take your orals simontainously as your liver guard. I was just wondering if it would make the oral less effective?

[likelifting]

Do you mean take them 'with' your liver guard?

I do in a pinch. But I try to seperate the 2 by a couple hours. Not that I think they'd be less effective, but I take quite a bit of cycle assist sups. I like to let my body absorb them, then give it something else to absorb.

[TYHO127]

What kind of cycle assist sups do you take?

[Bigshotvictoria]

Lets take a step back. What does your cycle look like?

[Alinjr]

^^Like he said, what are you taking?

[Juced_porkchop]

I like taking them midway in with oral start and then a couple weeks after orals are stopped.

regardless how you dose it i would run it a bit passed when oral is stopped.

[TYHO127]

I haven't started yet. Still trying to plan it out. I was thinking about dbol that's if I can get it, or I still have a bottle of mdrol (superdrol clone)

[likelifting]

OP, I'm new to the board and I think BigshotVictoria is on the right track. I think its best to post your cycle, stats and cycle history. If you haven't planned it out completely, there are experienced posters that can help. I can jump back in here at some point if needed.

But I will answer your question on sups with orals. I take...

Cel Cycle Assist
Hawthorne Berry
Red Yeast Rice
CoQ10
Fish oil
Liv.52
and when running orals I take some liver support that has TUDCA in it. I drop some Liv.52 add TUDCA Liver support.

^ Thats off the top of my head.

Good luck!

[TYHO127]

You take all that for your assist? I have just done a couple cycels of cel mdrol with cel cycle assist then cel pct assist two 4 week cycles 2 months apart from eachother. Not much of a history haha

[likelifting]

It might be overkill, but...

HB for BP
Red Yeast Rice for Cholesterol
CoQ10 for BP
Fish Oil for joints

I'm old dude. Ounce of prevention....however that saying goes.

[Bigshotvictoria]

You take all that for your assist? I have just done a couple cycels of cel mdrol with cel cycle assist then cel pct assist two 4 week cycles 2 months apart from eachother. Not much of a history haha

The reason I was asking for your stats and planned cycle is so that we here can make sure you're in the right place to take the right compounds. As you have mentioned that you are planning a dbol only cycle, i can see that you're not quite there yet. NO compound should ever be taken without testosterone as a base. Your first cycle should consist of testosterone ONLY. There are other things that need to be set for a cycle to beneficial as well, so if you would please provide us with your age, height, weight, bf%, training history, past steroid use (if any) and diet, we can give you the advice you're asking for, and help you make the biggest, and safest gains possible.

[JWP806]

What will your cycle look like? I know you mentioned either dbol or mdrol... I hope you are planning on running some test too.

I like tudca/udca. Atomini posted a sticky about liver support that is definitely worth a read: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...a#.UP7ZbqVauas

You can buy udca at ar-r .

[likelifting]

You take all that for your assist? I have just done a couple cycels of cel mdrol with cel cycle assist then cel pct assist two 4 week cycles 2 months apart from eachother. Not much of a history haha

Please do what Bigshot is asking for though. I posted some of my sups, so you can see there can be a lot that goes into a cycle. Plus read what Bigshot has posted. Taking an oral by itself is NOT good. So I posted my sups and I'm out of this thread. Good luck to you!

[TYHO127]

I'm about to turn 28 Been training of and on Sience HS got really fit in the military. My bf% is 10-12. I wasn't just thinking about running dbol alone I just wanted that to be part if my cycle I know test is a must especially on the first cycle.

[Bigshotvictoria]

I'm about to turn 28 Been training of and on Sience HS got really fit in the military. My bf% is 10-12. I wasn't just thinking about running dbol alone I just wanted that to be part if my cycle I know test is a must especially on the first cycle.

Again, in order to help you i need all the info. Please see my last post for the stats i need to really help.

[TYHO127]

My height is 511 weight 185. Diet is mostly shakes, cereal, bannanas,(morning) Turkey ,chicken, tuna sandwiches and maybe a shake (afternoon) cottage cheese, red meat, eggs whites ( night) then if I wake up in the middle of the night ill have a serving of Greek yogert

[Gav_999]

Milk Thistle is the best thing for your liver isnn't it ?? , plus coffee enemas ( some would consider this extreme but all meat eaters should have them ) can actually empty all the shit out of your liver, look em up!!

[Bigshotvictoria]

My height is 511 weight 185. Diet is mostly shakes, cereal, bannanas,(morning) Turkey ,chicken, tuna sandwiches and maybe a shake (afternoon) cottage cheese, red meat, eggs whites ( night) then if I wake up in the middle of the night ill have a serving of Greek yogert

It sounds like you're going to need to get your diet a little more in order to make the best of any cycle. I would go into to nutrition forum, write up what a day of food looks like
ie 7am 1 cup oats 4 whole eggs 1 cup veggies
10am 8 oz chicken 1 cup rice

etc...

Also write down your macros for the day, and your TDEE.

Do this so we can make sure you get the best out of your cycle. As far as the cycle itself, forget liver protection. When we say Test only for the first cycle, that means test only. Read the stickies on beginners cycles, and the ones on HCG and PCT. These will tell you everything you need. Once you have the diet banged out (no point taking steroids if the diet isn't in check) Post another thread in here with what you've found for a first test cycle and pct. We'll help tweak it so that you have everything in order.

Also, milk thistle is BS

[TYHO127]

For sure. I'm in no hurry. I'm just asking a lot of questions. Trying to educate myself so when I am ready I'm might have an idea. I have actually been spending a lot of time on the nutrition forum. UDCA seem like the way to go though

[likelifting]

For sure. I'm in no hurry. I'm just asking a lot of questions. Trying to educate myself so when I am ready I'm might have an idea. I have actually been spending a lot of time on the nutrition forum. UDCA seem like the way to go though

Great approach.

[warmouth]

Look at BSV go! And likelifting, both doing great! I love seeing people stepping up and giving great advice. All about the help here. OP, while your stats arent bad, as BSV said, you really need to get your diet dialed in and consistant for a little while before you start. AS with anything, whenyou dial in your diet off cycle, you can know what too many carbs do, too much fat, too much/little protien does. Because AAS only enhance what youre already doing, if your diet neds tweeked to suit your goals, you can do it naturally without the AAS "enhancing" it. You dont want to figure on, for instance 3200 calories with a 40/40/20 split, as some people respond negatively to carbs, for instance. or fat, or protein for that matter. If you start to gain more fat off cycle, being on can possibly speed up that fat growth. If it is dialed in, and you are progressing naturally in a way to suit your goals, then the AAS would benefit this by enhancing it.

I will say that there is much more to AAS than just taking them. You need to know them through and through. Dont just take Dbol becasue someone said it is good. Read up on it. Same with any compound(other than test, as that is a much IMO). You need to learn and purchase and AI before you start, adn take it throughout the cycle. You need to purchase PCT item before you start as well. You cant predict the future, and you might have to stop mid-cycle for an unknown reason, so always have PCT ready. Hit the nutrition forum with your stats and goals, and let those experts set you up with a great diet. Youre on the right track.

As for liver support. Milk thistle is the one that has been used the longest, i'd say. I dont think it is as effective as once thought(unless you are taking in massive amounts like 4-5 grams daily). I recommend NAC and/or UDCA along with milk thistle if you'd like. UDCA can be purchased from the site sponsor up top, NAC can be purchased anywhere that sell supplements. Fish oil, CoQ10, Red yeast Rice, D3, B12, Vitamin A, and cialis can all be beneficial on or off. I take them all daily. Helps with skin, BP, lipids, and appetite.

And once again, great job guys.

[Bigshotvictoria]

Look at BSV go! And likelifting, both doing great! I love seeing people stepping up and giving great advice. All about the help here. OP, while your stats arent bad, as BSV said, you really need to get your diet dialed in and consistant for a little while before you start. AS with anything, whenyou dial in your diet off cycle, you can know what too many carbs do, too much fat, too much/little protien does. Because AAS only enhance what youre already doing, if your diet neds tweeked to suit your goals, you can do it naturally without the AAS "enhancing" it. You dont want to figure on, for instance 3200 calories with a 40/40/20 split, as some people respond negatively to carbs, for instance. or fat, or protein for that matter. If you start to gain more fat off cycle, being on can possibly speed up that fat growth. If it is dialed in, and you are progressing naturally in a way to suit your goals, then the AAS would benefit this by enhancing it.

I will say that there is much more to AAS than just taking them. You need to know them through and through. Dont just take Dbol becasue someone said it is good. Read up on it. Same with any compound(other than test, as that is a much IMO). You need to learn and purchase and AI before you start, adn take it throughout the cycle. You need to purchase PCT item before you start as well. You cant predict the future, and you might have to stop mid-cycle for an unknown reason, so always have PCT ready. Hit the nutrition forum with your stats and goals, and let those experts set you up with a great diet. Youre on the right track.

As for liver support. Milk thistle is the one that has been used the longest, i'd say. I dont think it is as effective as once thought(unless you are taking in massive amounts like 4-5 grams daily). I recommend NAC and/or UDCA along with milk thistle if you'd like. UDCA can be purchased from the site sponsor up top, NAC can be purchased anywhere that sell supplements. Fish oil, CoQ10, Red yeast Rice, D3, B12, Vitamin A, and cialis can all be beneficial on or off. I take them all daily. Helps with skin, BP, lipids, and appetite.

And once again, great job guys.

No need to feed my ego

[warmouth]

No need to feed my ego

lol. Youre doing good all around buddy. Came a long way since the time you said you were done with AAS!

[Bigshotvictoria]

lol. Youre doing good all around buddy. Came a long way since the time you said you were done with AAS!

It's amazing how much you can learn about something when you can take a much more objective view point.

Thanks for the compliment, I'm assuming after so many posts it'll say "Knowledgeable member" under my name. I should probably know how to act the part...

[TYHO127]

Hope so!

[TYHO127]

Great thread thanks guys

[austinite]

NAC daily. On or off cycle. If cycling I simply double the dose.

[Atomini]

All info you will ever require on liver health and oral AAS use is here in this thread: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-ORAL-TOXICITY!!

It explains how and why Milk Thistle is absolute bullshit and doesn't do anything (in the form you get it in the stores), and how and why UDCA/TUDCA and NAC are far superior and PROVEN liver support compounds. And no, your liver support supplements will not interfere with absorbtion of your oral AAS. It will be fine. In fact, during use of UDCA/TUDCA, you can actually improve absorbtion of your oral AAS by allowing free and proper bile flow through the liver. When Cholestasis occurs due to either physical or chemical obstruction of bile flow (THIS IS WHAT C17-ALPHA ALKYLATED ORALS CAUSE FOR THE LIVER), the liver cannot process things as efficiently, and by not taking a proper liver support compound, you can potentially end up getting less absorbtion of your oral anabolic without it. Everything is explained in that thread, read through as much of it as possible.

[ironbeck]

According to Dr Kakoo a world renowned liver specialist, she personally told me nothing is the best protectant for the liver, plenty of water.

[jimmyinkedup]

All info you will ever require on liver health and oral AAS use is here in this thread: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-ORAL-TOXICITY!!

It explains how and why Milk Thistle is absolute bullshit and doesn't do anything (in the form you get it in the stores), and how and why UDCA/TUDCA and NAC are far superior and PROVEN liver support compounds. And no, your liver support supplements will not interfere with absorbtion of your oral AAS. It will be fine. In fact, during use of UDCA/TUDCA, you can actually improve absorbtion of your oral AAS by allowing free and proper bile flow through the liver. When Cholestasis occurs due to either physical or chemical obstruction of bile flow (THIS IS WHAT C17-ALPHA ALKYLATED ORALS CAUSE FOR THE LIVER), the liver cannot process things as efficiently, and by not taking a proper liver support compound, you can potentially end up getting less absorbtion of your oral anabolic without it. Everything is explained in that thread, read through as much of it as possible.

I will be running udca in an attempt to improve my lipid profile.

[austinite]

According to Dr Kakoo a world renowned liver specialist, she personally told me nothing is the best protectant for the liver, plenty of water.

She probably did not consider AAS hepatoxicity.

[Atomini]

According to Dr Kakoo a world renowned liver specialist, she personally told me nothing is the best protectant for the liver, plenty of water.

I would be so inclined as to disagree with this particular Dr Kakoo, who likely does not have anything to do with C17-alpha aklylated oral anabolic steroid induced Cholestasis of the liver.

A PLETHORA of clinical studies on UDCA/TUDCA also fly in the face of this particular Dr's opinion, where UDCA/TUDCA has been succesfully utilized to treat individuals with all forms of Hepatitis (even the extremely severe ones such as Hepatitis C), as well as alcohol induced damage on hepatic function, and last but not least, Cholestasis induced by the administration of methylated anabolic steroids . Raw evidence from clinical data doesn't lie.

But people like this doctor can.

I will be running udca in an attempt to improve my lipid profile.

Good stuff! It is a godsend for not just maintaining proper liver function during the use of C17AA orals, but also controlling the related regative cholesterol changes induced by oral AAS (which are far more harsh on cholesterol values than injectable compounds due to their route of administration and effects on the liver.

Just beware that it can and will change cholesterol values negatively if you are using it for expended periods of time. This is why it is advised to halt TUDCA/UDCA use after 8 weeks, take a break for a month or two, and then get back on it if you wish to do so.

[jimmyinkedup]

Good stuff! It is a godsend for not just maintaining proper liver function during the use of C17AA orals, but also controlling the related regative cholesterol changes induced by oral AAS (which are far more harsh on cholesterol values than injectable compounds due to their route of administration and effects on the liver.

Just beware that it can and will change cholesterol values negatively if you are using it for expended periods of time. This is why it is advised to halt TUDCA/UDCA use after 8 weeks, take a break for a month or two, and then get back on it if you wish to do so.

Thanks for the info. This is more a crash treatment if you will so that falls perfectly in line with what you posted.

[Atomini]

That's perfect! Are you having bloodwork done before, during, and after? Any bloodwork you may be getting would be great to share with others here to further back up the efficacy of UDCA/TUDCA.

[jimmyinkedup]

That's perfect! Are you having bloodwork done before, during, and after? Any bloodwork you may be getting would be great to share with others here to further back up the efficacy of UDCA/TUDCA.

I have my pre bloods which prompted this whole undertaking. I was gonna just get post in 8 weeks. Ill be more than happy to share before/after data. Maybe I will see about half way blood work as well.

[ironbeck]

She probably did not consider AAS hepatoxicity.

This women deals with ppl dieing of Aids, hep C, infectious diseases and all things pertaining to the liver all over the world(lectures) and all the drugs they take for their disease or viruses....I think this compares to the hepatoxicity of AAS.......don't you?

[warmouth]

I will be running udca in an attempt to improve my lipid profile.

Dont do it Jimmy! I dont know if you were serious or joking, but Atomini showed me a reference that higher doses (500+mgs daily) or extended use can lead to elevated lipid panels. I am living proof of it. He pretty much narrowed it down to possibly being due to UDCA. It is great stuff, but not for anything other than the duration of an oral AAS. Not to undermine you by no means, as you are the man with this lifestyle. I just wanted to let you know what I found out.

[Atomini]

This women deals with ppl dieing of Aids, hep C, infectious diseases and all things pertaining to the liver all over the world(lectures) and all the drugs they take for their disease or viruses....I think this compares to the hepatoxicity of AAS.......don't you?

No it does not.

What is the ratio of patients in this world suffering from C17-alpha alkylated oral-induced Cholestasis of the liver to those suffering from liver damage as a result of excessive Tylenol use? Or Hepatitis C? The answer is: too small to even be able to come up with a ratio. How many doctors every year in the ER receive patients with oral AAS induced Cholestasis? The average ER in most hospitals probably sees NONE.

And not all hepatotixicity and liver damage is the same. Cholestasis resultant of oral AAS use is very specific. Hepatitis is the result of liver death from infection of the liver by viruses that attack hepatic cells. I am no liver specialist and even I know these things! Let me educate you on something... For example, people need to understand that UDCA/TUDCA is an amazing liver protectant but is limited to hepatotoxicity and damage as a result of Cholestasis (caused by oral AAS use or otherwise), Hepatitis (to an extent), and alcohol-induced hepatotoxicity. HOWEVER, UDCA/TUDCA is near useless for acetaminophen-related liver damage (Tylenol). Liver damage from acetaminophen is completely different from liver damage caused by AAS or alcohol. UDCA/TUDCA is very beneficial for treating the condition i've mentioned many times known as Cholestasis, which is what oral anabolic steroids are responsible for causing. Acetaminophen-related liver toxicity is really something completely different. When acetaminophen is metabolized by the liver, some of it is metabolized into a toxic byproduct known as NAPQI (which stands for N-acetyl-p-benzoquinoneimine). When acetaminophen is taken in recommended doses, your body can quickly remove this toxic by-product in the urine. However, when the liver needs to suddenly metabolize overdose or very frequent levels of acetaminophen, too much of the toxic NAPQI is produced and it starts injure and destroy the main cells of the liver because of how destructive and toxic the NAPQI is. This is not Cholestasis, which is characterized by either physical or chemical obstruction of bile flow within the liver. UDCA/TUDCA will do nothing against acetominophen-induced liver damage.

This is the problem when people read about UDCA/TUDCA or any related such things, they think it is the king liver protectant against EVERYTHING harmful to the liver. No. Absolutely not. Different things that are hepatotoxic are hepatotoxic for different and often unrelated reasons. UDCA/TUDCA just happens to be very good at assisting the liver in dealing with minor to increasingly severe Cholestasis. It can't really do very much for NAPQI toxicity. Many studies have demonstrated the immaculate ability for UDCA/TUDCA to heal the liver from severe Cholestasis and assist proper bile flow to start operating normally again.

I honestly don't give a flying rat's ass if some particular doctor is the leading liver specialist in the world. If she makes a statement like "nothing is the best protectant for the liver" right in the face of evidence to the contrary as demonstrated by clinical studies and vast amounts of evidence, then this doctor you speak of is just plain ignorant, uninformed, and quite frankly, HUBRIS!!! NO doctor should be like this, and no doctor should be throwing out statements like that ESPECIALLY if they are a prominent liver specialist as you suggest. That is the most unnaceptable attitude for any doctor to have, and she should be ashamed of herself.

She should be ashamed of herself for making such a hubris statement in the face of many studies that have been done on the benefits of use of TUDCA/UDCA on Hepatitis C patients with very positive results. Here, i've got some links and quotes for you,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943781

Bile acids for viral hepatitis. Chen W, Liu J, Gluud C. Toronto Western Hospital, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Liver Clinic, Room 181, 6B Fell Pav, 399 Bathurst St, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 2S8. [email protected]

In one trial, ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) versus placebo for acute hepatitis B significantly reduced the risk of hepatitis B surface antigen positivity at the end of treatment and serum HBV DNA level at the end of follow-up. In another trial, UDCA versus no intervention for chronic hepatitis B significantly reduced the risk of having abnormal serum transaminase activities at the end of treatment. Twenty-five trials compared bile acids (21 trials UDCA; four trials tauro-UDCA) versus placebo or no intervention with or without co-interventions for chronic hepatitis C. Bile acids did not significantly reduce the risk of having detectable serum HCV RNA (RR 0.99, 95% CI 0.91 to 1.07), cirrhosis, or portal and periportal inflammation score at the end of treatment. Bile acids significantly decreased the risk of having abnormal serum alanine aminotransferase activity at the end of treatment (RR 0.82, 95% CI 0.76 to 0.90) and follow-up (RR 0.91, 95% CI 0.85 to 0.98). Bile acids significantly increased the Knodell score (WMD 0.20, 95% CI 0.08 to 0.31) at the end of treatment. No severe adverse events were reported.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9840118

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid for the treatment of HCV-related chronic hepatitis: a multicenter placebo-controlled study. Crosignani A, Budillon G, Cimino L, Del Vecchio Blanco C, Loguercio C, Ideo G, Raimondo G, Stabilini R, Podda M. Division of Internal Medicine, School of Medicine San Paolo, Milan, Italy.

RESULTS:
A consistent decrease in aminotransferase serum levels was observed in patients treated with tauroursodeoxycholic acid compared with placebo (p<0.001) and a progressive improvement with time was also found (p<0.05; linear time effect).

CONCLUSIONS:
Tauroursodeoxycholic acid improves the biochemical expression of chronic hepatitis. Long-term studies with clinically relevant end-points are warranted.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...615.x/abstract

Effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on bile acid-induced apoptosis in primary human hepatocytes. European Journal of Clinical Investigation.

Results
Apoptotic cell death was significantly increased after exposure to 50 μM GCDCA. Bile acid-induced apoptosis was not accompanied by hepatocellular Fas receptor overexpression. Tauroursodeoxycholic acid reduced apoptosis, as indicated by a significant reduction of oligonucleosomal DNA cleavage. Fas receptor expression was not significantly affected by tauroursodeoxycholic acid. At higher concentrations, direct cytolytic cell destruction was observed.

There are even more studies out there that have shown positive liver repair benefits from UDCA/TUDCA for Hepatitis victims. TUDCA/UDCA has assisted SO MANY people in improved liver function and recovery to the point where they are either cured or to the point where they can function normally because UDCA/TUDCA has brought their livers at neat 100% health. TUDCA/UDCA has worked so much better than anything else for liver health out there that the medical establishment has jumped all over it since its demonstrable evidence has been expounded. As a result, UDCA/TUDCA raw powders for synthesis into tablets or medication is now very scarce on the market because of how much big pharma has caught onto it.

Doctors that make such hubris statements about any particular issue concerning the treatment of ailments and disorders despite all of the evidence to the contrary should have their practicing license revoked. Seriously. I know one individual whom I was close with that died of Hepatitis C and suffered a great deal because her doctor was so closed-minded as to the different treatment options that I was telling her to ask her doctor about. Absolutely disgusting.

[warmouth]

It's amazing how much you can learn about something when you can take a much more objective view point.

Thanks for the compliment, I'm assuming after so many posts it'll say "Knowledgeable member" under my name. I should probably know how to act the part...

It isnt about posts, it is about what you bring to the forum and the "man in charge" taking notice. But yes, you should act the part One of these days I'll be a Mod! lol.

[warmouth]

Atomini, sorry, I didnt read as far down as your references before I posted. I just saw the comment on my way down and pulled the trigger because I remembered what you told me about it months ago. Sorry about that.