Turning 30.....1st bike ride

[bobdurden]

Hi guys,
As the title alludes, i'm turning 30 in April and am planning my first cycle. I've been training since my old man bought me an oly weight set for xmass when i was 16. I'm currently 5'9, 185lbs. As far as body fat goes, I've done calipers, hydro-static, bodpod, etc. but still cannot put a finger on which is more accurate. I've given up on these methods and use the mirror as a guide. I have a defined "4 pack", visible anterior serratus and lower abdominal vascularity. I'm guessing this puts me between 10-12%.

Diet will be 3500cals/300carbs/290prot/120fat

Training will be an upper lower split where bodyparts are hit twice per week. Mon(upper 6-8reps), Tuesday(lower 6-8reps), Thurs(upper 9-12reps), Fri(Lower9-12reps)

Movements are pretty basic: Dips, Bench press, Deadlifts, pullups, Clean and Press, Squats, Rows, barbell curl.

My goal with this cycle is to break through some plateaus with the iron and add/retain 5-10lbs of lean mass.

I'm new so be gentle hahahha.

Cycle
Week 1-10 Test Cyp 200mg twice per week. Tues & Sat
Week 2-10 Aromasin 12.5mg every other day.
Week 2-12 HCG 250iu twice per week. Mon & Fri

PCT
Starting week 13
Clomid 25/25/25/25
Nolva 20/20/20/20

Okay guys how does this look? I'm feeling like I need to up the doses of clomid and nolva for the first couple weeks but after a lot of reading I'm leaning towards the numbers listed above. From my research clinical studies seem to indicate 25mg of clomid is very effective and very little negative sides are noted at this dosage. Same applies for the nolva. I know this goes against convention and I'm certainly not trying to reinvent the wheel here so please dont hold back in pointing out my shortcomings. Also, should i run Aromasin ED or EOD given its half-life?

Thanks a lot!

[bobdurden]

Cycle
Week 1-10 Test Cyp 200mg twice per week. Tues & Sat
Week 2-10 Aromasin 12.5mg every other day.
Week 2-12 HCG 250iu twice per week. Mon & Fri

PCT
Starting week 13
Clomid 25/25/25/25
Nolva 20/20/20/20

225 views and nothing? I'm trying to keep things basic as possible. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

[samuelsteven]

Why are you starting PCT at week 13? PCT shouldn't be started til 2 weeks after your last injection. What's your reasoning behind 400mg a week? What is your approx body fat percentage, don't be lazy bro, it's just like 5 boxes to fill in on a calc, going by a mirror is not real smart and sure isn't informative for us to go by. You want real help, give us some real info. If start the nolva at 40, then work down to 20.

[Papa Smurf]

Just a thought............ yove been training for 14 years and your only 185 lbs. Why not try the diet and traing you posted without the cycle and see what kind of results you get.

I dont ? your low body fat ( that may be part of the problem) Its almost impossible to grow bigger and not gain some fat....... just my 2 cents bro

[Papa Smurf]

FYI you may want to add abit more protein to your diet

[bobdurden]

Why are you starting PCT at week 13? PCT shouldn't be started til 2 weeks after your last injection.

My last injection will be at the end of week 10 on a Saturday. From then, It would be 15 days(or the start of week 13) when I start PCT.

What's your reasoning behind 400mg a week?

The Test Cyp I have is in 200mg Amps. 400mg/week seems a reasonable place for a noob to start.

What is your approx body fat percentage, don't be lazy bro, it's just like 5 boxes to fill in on a calc, going by a mirror is not real smart and sure isn't informative for us to go by.

Okay, as I said I'm not a big fan of calipers but for you samuelsteven, I broke em out . The 5 points fold test puts me at 10% BF.

You want real help, give us some real info.

Sorry, man. Thought my initial post covered all the bases.

[bobdurden]

Just a thought............ yove been training for 14 years and your only 185 lbs. Why not try the diet and traing you posted without the cycle and see what kind of results you get.

I dont ? your low body fat ( that may be part of the problem) Its almost impossible to grow bigger and not gain some fat....... just my 2 cents bro

The diet and training above is essentially a variation of what I've been doing for years. All my training revolves around progressive loading and I've been controlling macros for as long as i can remember.

I have a very small frame and joints. If I threw up some pics and you didnt know how tall I was you'd think I weight over 200. I have gained a lot of muscular maturity over the years. My brother who has the same frame and doesnt train weighs 155lbs and my dad is barely pushing 170lbs at 50 years old.

Trust me, I'm not a noob when it comes to diet and training. I've been down to 165 with striated quads all the way up to 200lbs throwing around big numbers on the iron.

Honestly I'm just starting to feel that my body doesnt recover like it used to and the lean mass gains have come to a stand still. I can obviously gain weight through increasing cals but the fat to lean mass ratio favors the fat accumulation once i hit about 190. It is frustrating to say the least.

Thanks again, guys. I'm glad you all are around for me to bounce these things around.

[Lunk1]

Run your cycle 12 weeks and up your PCT frontload
Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

[Papa Smurf]

I would HIGHLY recommend you havin BW done before your cycle At the least you will establish a base line of your test levels before your cycle and then you can check them again after cycle and pct That way you will know your pct worked

[bobdurden]

Yes! Thank you smurf I forgot to add that i have been getting routine BW done every year since i turned 25. I'm scheduled to go in for another check up in a few weeks.

[Papa Smurf]

With that said, And it sounds like you have a good handle on things...........I suggest you go 12 even 14 weeks on that low a dose of cyp. It being your first cycle, you should get some results with min side effects

Maybe the next cycle (if needed) you can stack some deca or Dbol to help with your bulk

But just to compare, My TRT dose is 200 mg each week Granted, Im old, but that amont keeps me stable (on high side) but stable with no sides

[bp2000]

Yes! Thank you smurf I forgot to add that i have been getting routine BW done every year since i turned 25. I'm scheduled to go in for another check up in a few weeks.

What was your t levels 25-30? Just curious I am around same age and noticed my T level dropped slightly starting around 28.


I wouldnt go longer than 10-12 weeks with T. The longer your shutdown the harder it is for PCT. And would definately not do Deca at a young age. That compound is to be avoided unless your older or on TRT already JMO. When your young it's all about designing cycles for quick recovery. If it were me I would do a 10 week test cyp or 8-10 week test prop cycle. You can increase HCG Use the 15 days while waiting for test to clear. Maybe 600iu every 3 day's during that time. Also I would use your AI 25mg EOD not 12.5 EOD.

[acidking]

lol I am also turning 30 in April ... what date is your birthday? I am on 14th

[samuelsteven]

I don't think 10 weeks is long enough @ only 400mg test C. I'd go for 12, I'd even raise the dose to 500mg. With your AI and your HCG running along side, you should have little to no side effects. IMO with that short of a run and that small of a dose, you're cycling for minimum gains, especially with no Dbol to kick start, so add that in at 25-30mg day in 3 doses. If you do that with the low fat you have and your 14 years under your belt, and the training program you have ready, you'd prolly get massive gains man, and with your HCG going, you'd prolly keep at least 85% of your gains if not more.

[Lunk1]

I don't think 10 weeks is long enough @ only 400mg test C. I'd go for 12, I'd even raise the dose to 500mg. With your AI and your HCG running along side, you should have little to no side effects. IMO with that short of a run and that small of a dose, you're cycling for minimum gains, especially with no Dbol to kick start, so add that in at 25-30mg day in 3 doses. If you do that with the low fat you have and your 14 years under your belt, and the training program you have ready, you'd prolly get massive gains man, and with your HCG going, you'd prolly keep at least 85% of your gains if not more.

While I prefer 12 weeks there is nothing wrong with 10 weeks....not to mention the difference between 400mg and 500mg EW is nominal and would probably not even be noticed. This is the ops forst cycle and his proposal is pretty good!

[bobdurden]

What was your t levels 25-30? Just curious I am around same age and noticed my T level dropped slightly starting around 28.

Funny you say that. My lowest number I've had was last year when i was 28. I dont have the papers in front of me but I know the total test values as they are saved on my computer. I know now that the important number is free test and I'm going to start figuring that information out. Anyways....
Age 25 = 636
Age 26 = 708
Age 27 = 670
Age 28 = 617

I'll let you guys know in about a month what my Age 29 number is.

[bobdurden]

lol I am also turning 30 in April ... what date is your birthday? I am on 14th

Turn 30 april 10 feelsbadman

[bp2000]

Funny you say that. My lowest number I've had was last year when i was 28. I dont have the papers in front of me but I know the total test values as they are saved on my computer. I know now that the important number is free test and I'm going to start figuring that information out. Anyways....
Age 25 = 636
Age 26 = 708
Age 27 = 670
Age 28 = 617

I'll let you guys know in about a month what my Age 29 number is.

Those number are solid. Ive seen guys that have high 600's and free test at the top of the range start doing cycles of Tren deca and other harsh compounds including longer cycles only to not be able to recover to the original numbers. So my advice is if you do decide to cycle keep it to 10 weeks max and use HCG and take AI at the start of the cycle as estrogen is 200x more supressive than test and keeping it in range the whole time is important for recovery.

[bobdurden]

With that said, And it sounds like you have a good handle on things...........I suggest you go 12 even 14 weeks on that low a dose of cyp. It being your first cycle, you should get some results with min side effects

Maybe the next cycle (if needed) you can stack some deca or Dbol to help with your bulk

But just to compare, My TRT dose is 200 mg each week Granted, Im old, but that amont keeps me stable (on high side) but stable with no sides

Thanks for the advice, man. I have enough of everything to run a full 12 weeks so if i decide to go through with things, can get BW done midway and am not experiencing any side effects then I just may extend it out another couple weeks. As for now, I'll plan on sticking to 10 weeks.

Deca and Dbol are so far out in left field right now that I cannot even start to think about it or I'll start obsessing. hahahahah

[bobdurden]

Samuelsteven,
This sounds very enticing but running 500mg of tes C could get a bit clunky given mine is in individual 200 mg amps but I guess could be done none the less. As stated above, I may run a full 12 weeks depending how things go. D bol is def a no go right now but I appreciate the input brother.

[bp2000]

Just run whatever you have for 10 weeks. You usually don't get a full 10ml or whatever in the bottle. So it will be a little less. Just monitor as you go and split it up for a 10 weeker. The reason behind this is Ive monitored bloodwork for guys on cycle and they usually don't get fully shutdown until week 7. So I try to tell them to use short ester and go for 8 weeks max 10. But a longer ester maybe you will be fine for 10 weeks. You can also use HCG to help keep balls online. good luck

[bobdurden]

Those number are solid. Ive seen guys that have high 600's and free test at the top of the range start doing cycles of Tren deca and other harsh compounds including longer cycles only to not be able to recover to the original numbers. So my advice is if you do decide to cycle keep it to 10 weeks max and use HCG and take AI at the start of the cycle as estrogen is 200x more supressive than test and keeping it in range the whole time is important for recovery.

BP, my biggest fear is going full tard and messing myself up for good. I'm certainly going to get my feet wet as some point but I want to be as cautious as possible and not dive right in. I've read enough research on test to know that at my dosage, the biggest fear is the effect of the ancillaries. If you guys have noticed my clomid and nolva doses are on the low side. I know it's already been suggested to front load these, but I'd still like to get some feedback from some of you other folks in regards to my PCT.

Thanks!

[bp2000]

BP, my biggest fear is going full tard and messing myself up for good. I'm certainly going to get my feet wet as some point but I want to be as cautious as possible and not dive right in. I've read enough research on test to know that at my dosage, the biggest fear is the effect of the ancillaries. If you guys have noticed my clomid and nolva doses are on the low side. I know it's already been suggested to front load these, but I'd still like to get some feedback from some of you other folks in regards to my PCT.

Thanks!

ok I understand fully what you are trying to accomplish that is why I am here to help. Most guys just don't listen. Duration is more important than dose. Moderate dose (400-500) and short duration is best. So 10 weeks at 500 is ok or even 10 weeks at 600. The duration here is more important because the only way you can mess up is to shut yourself down and not be able to restart. So we keep it 2 months which is good amount of time and then hit PCT correct. I like you are conservative on your PCT. Most guys take 100mg of Clomid which I think is way to much. Reason for this is Clomid can have side effects that can affect your vision. You can get tracers which obviously is not a good thing. So 50mg max and split that dose. Studies have shown test doubling or more with only 25mg. I would do 50mg the first week 25mg every 8 hours. Nolva I would do 40mg the first week or 2 weeks then down to 20. Shutdown is worse on day 7-15 of PCT. If you feel recovered after 2 weeks then lower your pct dose (25mg clomid, 20mg nolva) and continue that regime for another week or two.

[bobdurden]

ok I understand fully what you are trying to accomplish that is why I am here to help. Most guys just don't listen. Duration is more important than dose. Moderate dose (400-500) and short duration is best. So 10 weeks at 500 is ok or even 10 weeks at 600. The duration here is more important because the only way you can mess up is to shut yourself down and not be able to restart. So we keep it 2 months which is good amount of time and then hit PCT correct. I like you are conservative on your PCT. Most guys take 100mg of Clomid which I think is way to much. Reason for this is Clomid can have side effects that can affect your vision. You can get tracers which obviously is not a good thing. So 50mg max and split that dose. Studies have shown test doubling or more with only 25mg. I would do 50mg the first week 25mg every 8 hours. Nolva I would do 40mg the first week or 2 weeks then down to 20. Shutdown is worse on day 7-15 of PCT. If you feel recovered after 2 weeks then lower your pct dose (25mg clomid, 20mg nolva) and continue that regime for another week or two.

Awesome BP! Thank you for this.

[bobdurden]

Okay,
Well a few things have happened since my last post. First, I gave my Test C away as a gift to an old friend from the gym who was passing through town which I hadnt seen in years. I had an interesting talk with him about cycling and man is there a lot of speculation out there as to the proper way to run this stuff!

Anyways, since I had to re-up, instead of going back to buy more C, I bought twenty 250mg Test E amps made by Schering (that chit wasnt cheap ). Also, I had my blood drawn and should get the results back early next week.

I've just wrapped up my training and am deloading. End of the program I hit 295 for two reps on a slight incline bench, 6 clean wide grip pull-ups with two plates hanging and a 305 deadlift for 12 reps. In addition to hopefully adding 10-15lbs of lean mass, these will be my markers to beat in three months and I'm freakin' stoked If things go really well, maybe I'll post some videos.

So, in the meantime I've been killing myself from analysis paralysis. With the info provided by you gents and from doing a lot of reading on the forum, this is my new proposal for my first cycle.
Weeks 1-10 (days 1-70) 250mg Test E twice per week. Tues and Sat
Weeks 1-11 (days 1-77) Aromasin 25mg EOD <---Is this too much or too little? Should I run it into PCT?
Weeks 1-10 (days 1-70) HCG 250iu Twice per week. Mon and Fri
Weeks 11-12 (days 71, 74, 77, 80) HCG 600iu Every third day

Day 84 <-----14 days after last Test E pin Start PCT
Clomid
Week 1 50mg per day split in two 25mg doses
Week 2 25mg
Week 3 25mg
Week 4 25mg

Nolva
Week 1 40mg
Week 2 40mg
Week 3 20mg
Week 4 10mg

Well, how's it look?

Thanks for everything, guys!

[ma_fighter]

Looks good, you can lower the Aromasin to 12.5mg EOD though.
Any particular reason you choose to drop the nolva to 10mg by week 4?

[bobdurden]

fighter,

This is an older study but the more I look into traditional dosages of Nolva throughout PCT, the more I've come to the conclusion that it is just that; tradition. With the addition of HCG during cycle, I'm leaning towards it lending to a quicker recovery but what the hell do I know? The problem is that there is just nothing out there in terms of peer reviewed double blinded placebo testing that applies to these chems the way we intend to use them.

Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.

Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.

Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone (T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio. Mean sperm concentration and total sperm output increased by about 70% after a mean treatment period of 5.5 +/- 0.4 months. No statistically significant difference was found between the two subgroups of patients treated with either the lower (5 or 10 mg once daily) or higher dose of tamoxifen (10 mg twice daily) with respect to basal or LHRH stimulated gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio and the effect on sperm density and total sperm output. In both subgroups the sperm motility and morphology remained unchanged. In conclusion higher doses of tamoxifen in this study prove not to be superior to lower doses in improving mean sperm density and total sperm output. The relative small percentage of patients achieving normalisation of only these sperm parameters pleads for further search for more effective selection of patients and other more effective treatment modalities in patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

[ma_fighter]

Well, I think the higher initial doses is due to the fact that Nolva has a half-life of a whooping 14 days, it's just a more effective way to get bloodlevels up quickly.
Thats an interesting study though