Member
I'm just curious how many ppl bridge var wile on pct and off their normal cycle?? I'm about to come off and was thinking of bridging var at a low dose (20-25mg) till I start my next cycle.. I was told by some that this is the way to go... however, I don't want to loose my sex drive but I'm thinking I don't since the dose is very low... what you big guys think???
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HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
naa. I don't PCT anymore, but if I did, I'd rather use B12 and eat like a horse.
Productive Member
Heck yeah!Originally Posted by austinite
Knowledgeable Member
What's with the bridging BS that has been mentioned so often lately?
OP, bridging concept is an oxymoron. When your cycle is over, you ought to start a solid PCT protocol, preferably increase your calories, supplement with certain vitamins and minerals (no, I don't mean useless Test boosters) and continue to workout in an intense manner.
Two knowledgeable board members above mentioned injectable B12 during PCT and since they also made a direct correlation between this vitamin and appetite, I am assuming this would ring a bell for you?
Member
I can tell you - Var alone will KILL your sex drive. My sex drive is usually craaazy - and var literally stopped it in a few days
although the results were goood to go!
Last edited by DigitalGorilla; 01-30-2013 at 01:03 AM.
"The Italian Stallion"
Agree with TJ!!
Are you pro BB?? Do you need to blast&cruise?
If you wont do PCT and continue with VAR off cycle your body wont get back to normal mode!
Member
I would be doing pct but running var at a very low dose... There is so many debates about var lowering dht but who do you believe? Like they say bodybuilding and what ppl use is a science so there is only one way to find out and that is to try it.. I'm debating if to try this of not.... Thank you all for your inputs...
Knowledgeable Member
How can there possibly be any debates about Anavar lowering DHT? Anavar is a DHT-reduced compound!!! This is like saying ''if you smoke cigarettes, your nicotine levels will decrease.''
... and NO, if a practice can possibly be associated with positive science, then there has to be a ground for objective knowledge, which there is concerning AAS: bio-chemistry. Regardless of metabolic response to a compound, the given compound has a nature of its own. Anavar, for instance, will NOT convert to estrogen in ANY individual. Scientific fact. Testosterone, for instance, WILL convert to estrogen in EVERY individual. Scientific fact. 17-alkyl-substituted anabolic androgenic steroids ARE hepatatoxic, regardless of differences between liver metabolisms of different individuals. Scientific fact. Thus, it doesn't matter if you try every and each compound for the sake of trial and error, Anavar will never convert to estrogen and Test will always convert to estrogen. One may need to go through trial and error in order to figure out how he responds to the given dose of a particular AI but nonetheless AI employment will certainly reduce estrogen levels in all individuals. This is simply a matter of human biology as well as pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics as an indispensable part of it.
This is the problem with the logic behind bridging: it is a retarded logic. On the one hand, the juicer wants to minimize loss of gains in LBM during PCT, which falsely leads him to use low dosages of an oral AAS during this phase; on the other hand, the same juicer wants to reboot his HPTA by running PCT at the same time, hoping that PCT compounds at the given dosages and duration will overcome the previous major suppression as well as the contemporary minor suppression. This is clearly an oxymoron and people who do it are either uneducated about AAS use hence are doing this simply because they don't know any better, or it is the lack of their ability of growing balls to become a TRT patient. If you love the stuff so much and can't do without it even during PCT, then stay on it for life! This way, you will have never to do PCT, ever again!
Last edited by Turkish Juicer; 01-30-2013 at 09:37 AM.
Member
TJ, I like your response and you sound very knowledgeable. While I was reading your quote I got a clear picture and makes a lot of sense.. I do agree with you though either stay on it for life (blast n cruise) or do proper use (on/off/pct). I guess I'm one of the ones that wants to stay on.. I just don't like to loose hardness & tone when coming off. What is the secret most guys do??.. It seems like guys in my gym never loose, could it be they're on for life? .... Yes, I do eat clean when I come off but I still loose muscle tone regardless and I hate it.. Help a brother out... Thanks bud
New Member
Var is well documented to not affect natural testosterone production at low doses [most say 20mg/day or less], which should help with strength and also well documented to help with weight loss. It is the least hepatotoxic and probably safest oral on the market. It will never be converted to estrogen, totally agree.
Best evidence is to look at scientific journals yourself and read, Pubmed is great, even google works well if you know what your looking for. A lot of people have some experience but no background knowledge or formal education with hormones-- asking around is great but read it yourself and make your own decision before you take anything.
Knowledgeable Member
Anavar at 20mg ED won't do anything noticeable regarding strength gains and fat-loss, as long as we are talking about a full developed adult male here.
Knowledgeable Member
Nope, oral Primobolan in tablet form is the safest oral.
It is non-hepatatoxic, FYI.
Member
See now I'm back to me debating if I should or not... I know ppl that do var all year round and 48+ years but then again I don't want to screw my self up.... Do you bridge your var?
Knowledgeable Member
Now I am starting to get a bit frustrated over your wishy-washy attitude here.
Look how I responded to the idea of bridging with 20mg of Anavar: it won't do anything noticeable for you. Var under 50mg will not do anything noticeable for you, as a matter of fact.
You are either not reading through the thread or not getting the points made for some reason.
There is a much better strategy called ''over-eating'' for keeping your cycle gains during PCT. You should give it a try sometimes.
Member
Dude, what's your problem????? What attitude do you see coming from me???? Dont talk to me like im some little kid...I'm simply asking and trying to get some facts according to the 3000 people that juice on here. They all have different believes and what work for them will not work for others... I appreciate your advise but this does not mean your 100% right or that I'm going to follow your advise.. Are you some sort of hormone doc???.. We're all chatting on this forum but at the end of the day you or I don't know who the hell is on the other side of this computer or ph, for all I know I might be chatting with a 16 yr old... Once again bro I appreciate your advise and will consider it.. thank you man... And honestly yes I did like your advise out of all of them.. respect for respect my brother...
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
Wishy washy attitude. Meaning you are going back and forth, it's like a never ending battle. He gave you phenomenal advice, took time out of his day to help you and you are not listening. TJ is at a knowledge and experience level far beyond what most could achieve. Please respect that.
Not to mention he's grammatically correct at all times, and that's rare!
Banned
Ahem..cough cough..Wishy washy attitude. Meaning you are going back and forth, it's like a never ending battle. He gave you phenomenal advice, took time out of his day to help you and you are not listening. TJ is at a knowledge and experience level far beyond what most could achieve. Please respect that.
Not to mention he's grammatically correct at all times, and that's rare!
Banned
With all this Anavar talk, here' some food for thought - take a peek....you too wishy washy(getfit28)..
Anavar - The Truth
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...!#.UODpRKzX_fs
New Member
True, for your hardcore body builder it is pissing in the wind. However, it will help strength gains [decrease loss] and assist in endurance nonetheless without decreasing natural testosterone production. If it made no difference compared to placebo, then it would be legal in professional sports, olympics, etc. This is fact, well studied drug for decades. Dont take my word for it, look in scientific journals for yourself which is the best source of all. Controlled objective studies, the evidence is there!
Productive Member
In bold. How do you know this? There is a scientific article that proves that anavar supresses testosterone. Every single person is different. 1mg could shut someone down while not the other.
To clear something up that Ive dealt with in the last couple of days..........I have a good friend who is well advanced in age and a hardcore BB(profession). He is a firm believer that avavar is so mold that it can be ran all year, indefinitely. Why? Because he has been BBing since the 80s and his biggest days were in that decade. He wasnt able to get anavar often and was told it was so mild that is was pointless. So he has in and Proviron in the same class as far as acting on the physical body. We now know that anavar is in no way the "mild" steroid every new guy thinks it is. Ive ran it, TJ has, Austinite is, and everyones body reacts differently. It made my lipids go over 400, BP skyrocket, and insomnia out of the arse. But others it isnt as bad. For some it is worse. If a person is going to "bridge", just stay on and deal with the long term consequences when you get them, and YOU WILL.
Productive Member
Nice post TJ. You're my new idol of vocabulary.
Anavar is an awesome compound, but to reiterate the above mentioned points for the sake of stroking my own egomaniacism, 20mg per day is a waste of an expensive pill. If you wish to reap the benefits of Anavar, stack a suitable dosage with testosterone on your next cycle. If you're interested in bridging, there's probably not a lot of sense in an attempt to reinvent this wheel; run a low dose of testosterone, skip the PCT.
On another note, don't lose your bearing, TJ is only taking the time to lead you down the right path.
Productive Member
You tell 'em Mickey.
New Member
You have a lot of posts, so I am sure you have plenty of personal experience. Thats awesome, the advice you give is probably based on that experience and is always helpful and honest.
However, I respectfully disagree from a purely scientific point of view. There is no head to head trials on these two orals by any pharmaceutical company or independent researcher. I have looked in most databases. If you have evidence of a head to head trial comparing the safety profiles [lipid profiles, liver function tests, electrolytes, BUN/Cr, adverse events/MI/CVA, etc] then I would love the title/authors to read for myself. That would be awesome info to have/use.
Otherwise, it is purely your OPINION. I cannot find any studies comparing the two and I do not think it exists based on my searches. Interestingly enough, in the USA Var is approved and legal for several medical conditions and Boli is not. I will admit that both have a pretty good safety profile and both have case reports of rare side effects, even deaths related to their use. I stand behind my statement that Var..."PROBABLY safest oral on the market". [NOTE that I did NOT say it was the safest, implying it is ONE of the safest].
Thanks Turkish Juicer for the posts, I respect your opinion and experience.
PS There is case reports of Liver toxicity with Boli [granted as above, this is rare, usually people have lung or hematopoeitic issues when they have side effects]. For example, there is a recent post in the New England Journal of Medicine regarding Peliosis Hepatitis from it. My point = dont believe opinions, always see for yourself:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...99711273372206
Last edited by JHeisman1; 02-15-2013 at 10:28 PM.
New Member
To Warmouth:
Definately amigo,
There is evidence that 20mg does not affect HTPA at all [by some scientists]. However, there is also evidence that it does shut down natural testosterone production by as much as almost 70% in other articles! Studies are mixed on that dose, above 20mg though, they pretty much all show a decrease in natural test across the board [I have NOT read nearly all of them, just a few].
Keep in mind that everyone metabolizes medications differently, there is never a one size fits all. Thats why some people have side effects, like you did, and others do not. There are multiple enzymes that break these products down that can be affected by fruit juices, other meds, genetics, etc. So if a sample size of people in a study is small, you may have a skewed result [maybe everyone you tested metabolizes the drug safely and you have no side effects]! Or you had a small sample where several people were on other medications and nearly all of them had side effects. Sample size is key along with design of the study. Larger studies [thousands of people] are best because the above sample bias does not occur, there is also selection bias, and multiple other issues in studies and design flaws.
Last edited by JHeisman1; 02-15-2013 at 10:50 PM.
New Member
posted in error wont delete!
Last edited by JHeisman1; 02-15-2013 at 10:55 PM. Reason: error
Knowledgeable Member
@JHeisman1: Thank you for all of your kind and flattering words; however, anyone who has been reading my posts on this board should know that my style neither stems purely from reading and reflecting on scientific studies nor do I ignore them and simply go by experience. If it is anything, then it is a healthy combination of the two.
This being said, let's move on to actual subject matter here: which one is less toxic? Anavar vs Primobolan Acetate.
Before pulling any studies regarding the subject, I would like to bring a fact to your attention regarding the very nature of Primobolan Acetate, meaning its chemical composition: Primobolan Acetate doesn't have 17-alpha-alkylation, meaning that it cannot possibly have an hepatatoxic effect, regardless of the dosage. Ironically enough, it is rather the liver that will do damage to oral Primo in this case, simply due to the fact that method of 17 beta estrification and 1 alkylation was used in creating this compound, leading to the inevitable result that oral Primo cannot even survive its first pass through your liver. This is also why it is near impossible to find oral Primo anywhere, because it is the least cost-effective compound on the planet available to juicers. Someone with my stats would easily require a minimum of 300mg of this stuff in order to attain any results.
Now, let's move on to the link you provided above. It is clearly stated in the abstract that ''the patient died of refractory anemia and thrombocytopenia.'' Her liver was enlarged with markedly reduced firmness and on the surface it showed multiple cavities and multiple diffused lesions were observed etc. In sum, the abstract suggests that there may be a direct correlation between 2 years of Primobolan Acetate use and the condition of the patients liver; however, this correlation is merely based on a suggestion, which itself stems from a generalization that ''peliosis hepatis is a known complication of androgen therapy.''
Unfortunate enough, the link you have provided us with here itself lacks the necessary scientific approach, clearly. Most androgens are hepatatoxic and thus androgen therapy is correlated to peliosis hepatis; however, in this case, Eike Walter, M.D., and Jochen Möckel, M.D. have made a crucial mistake by ignoring the very nature of Primobolan Acetate and correlated the condition of the patient's liver to 2 years of non-hepatatoxic androgen therapy, although they do not present a definitive stand either.
Here is a series of questions that are typically asked in differential diagnosis by true experts of this field, although it is a bit pointless now since the patient is dead:
1. Was the patient on any other medication that may have led to the development of peliosis hepatis while receiving androgen therapy.
2. What was her family's medical history of diseases, liver in particular.
3. Was she a smoker? Was she a drinker? Did she lie about her habits of such, as patients often do.
4. Has she encountered an infection during those 2 years of treatment, as Peliosis hepatis can be induced by a series of infections which may have been overlooked by her doctors.
5. What about toxins, malignancies and any chronic conditions?
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