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  1. #1
    kjonn is offline New Member
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    1st cycle question

    Good Evening Gents,

    I want to put out my first cycle here and hear from the experienced persons if it is ok, and any critiques/advice is appreciated. I have debated for years on using them, and finally feel I'm at the right point in my life to try it. I have read as much as I could, but I still feel overwhelmed with a lot of it.

    My stats:
    5'9'', 175lbs, 11% BF. I am a 26yr old male.

    Cycle
    Week 1-12 Testosterone -Enanthate 500mg per week
    Week 13-15 Nothing
    PCT
    Week 16-17 Nolvadex 40mg per day
    Week 18-19 Nolvadex 20mg per day

    At the end of PCT, assuming my body reacted well, how much longer should I wait to start the next cycle? I haven't been able to find much info on how long you should wait to start your next cycle.

  2. #2
    austinite's Avatar
    austinite is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
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    Welcome.

    Test dose looks good. You need an AI like adex on cycle. Nolva is not enough for PCT, you need clomid as well. Also consider HCG on cycle.

  3. #3
    s.e.bowen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjonn View Post
    Good Evening Gents,

    I want to put out my first cycle here and hear from the experienced persons if it is ok, and any critiques/advice is appreciated. I have debated for years on using them, and finally feel I'm at the right point in my life to try it. I have read as much as I could, but I still feel overwhelmed with a lot of it.

    My stats:
    5'9'', 175lbs, 11% BF. I am a 26yr old male.

    Cycle
    Week 1-12 Testosterone -Enanthate 500mg per week
    Week 13-15 Nothing
    PCT
    Week 16-17 Nolvadex 40mg per day
    Week 18-19 Nolvadex 20mg per day

    At the end of PCT, assuming my body reacted well, how much longer should I wait to start the next cycle? I haven't been able to find much info on how long you should wait to start your next cycle.
    Cycle time + pct time = time off.

    s.e.bowen

  4. #4
    s.e.bowen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjonn View Post
    Good Evening Gents,

    I want to put out my first cycle here and hear from the experienced persons if it is ok, and any critiques/advice is appreciated. I have debated for years on using them, and finally feel I'm at the right point in my life to try it. I have read as much as I could, but I still feel overwhelmed with a lot of it.

    My stats:
    5'9'', 175lbs, 11% BF. I am a 26yr old male.

    Cycle
    Week 1-12 Testosterone -Enanthate 500mg per week
    Week 13-15 Nothing
    PCT
    Week 16-17 Nolvadex 40mg per day
    Week 18-19 Nolvadex 20mg per day

    At the end of PCT, assuming my body reacted well, how much longer should I wait to start the next cycle? I haven't been able to find much info on how long you should wait to start your next cycle.
    Cycle time + pct time = time off.

    s.e.bowen

  5. #5
    c-Z's Avatar
    c-Z
    c-Z is offline Educate B4 You Medicate (RIP T)
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    AI isnt necessary. It all depends on person. I would more then likely keep it on hand though. If I go over 600mgs I usually start getting sides to the point where I need a AI. I know plenty of people who cycle and dont run AI and have minimal to no side affects to gyno.

    Time on plus pct = time off. With exception of blood work. Some people recover faster/slower

  6. #6
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Welcome.


    **Most Common Beginners Cycles**

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread....#.UJZv62fX_fs

  7. #7
    misterwazza is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    Welcome.

    Test dose looks good. You need an AI like adex on cycle. Nolva is not enough for PCT, you need clomid as well. Also consider HCG on cycle.
    This. Also, think about injecting test twice a week (since it wasn't specified, I don't know if you were planning to inject it 500mg a shot or 250mg twice a week, just saying )

  8. #8
    a_bower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjonn View Post
    Good Evening Gents,

    I want to put out my first cycle here and hear from the experienced persons if it is ok, and any critiques/advice is appreciated. I have debated for years on using them, and finally feel I'm at the right point in my life to try it. I have read as much as I could, but I still feel overwhelmed with a lot of it.

    My stats:
    5'9'', 175lbs, 11% BF. I am a 26yr old male.

    Cycle
    Week 1-12 Testosterone -Enanthate 500mg per week
    Week 13-15 Nothing
    PCT
    Week 16-17 Nolvadex 40mg per day
    Week 18-19 Nolvadex 20mg per day

    At the end of PCT, assuming my body reacted well, how much longer should I wait to start the next cycle? I haven't been able to find much info on how long you should wait to start your next cycle.
    Personally i would start PCT 2 Weeks post cycle instead of 3. Also concider including HCG .

  9. #9
    songdog's Avatar
    songdog is offline ARs TOP DOG ~ MONITOR ~
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    Yes you do need a ai!

  10. #10
    >Good Luck<'s Avatar
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    Add arimidex at .25 every other day from first shot right up to pct.. Pct start time for test e is 14 day, and test c is 18 days.

    Add Hcg @250iu 24h before each shot. And continue until pct.

    Add clomid to pct for 4 weeks at 50/50/50/50 or 100/100/50/50

    Don't listen to "you don't need AI, only take it if you get sides" because high estrogen isn't always detectable by sides...

    Good luck

  11. #11
    austinite's Avatar
    austinite is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Z View Post
    AI isnt necessary. It all depends on person. I would more then likely keep it on hand though. If I go over 600mgs I usually start getting sides to the point where I need a AI. I know plenty of people who cycle and dont run AI and have minimal to no side affects to gyno.

    Time on plus pct = time off. With exception of blood work. Some people recover faster/slower
    This is incorrect. You need to be using a AI, that's how you PREVENT issues, instead of reversing them when it's too late. Where did you get this idea, c-Z? Just because a few people got lucky doesnt mean it;s not needed. An AI is far more than just gyno. Please expand your research on this subject. Just because you dont grow tits doesnt mean you dont need an AI.

    If you truly believe this, please at least explain to the OP what happens to Testosterone in your body once administered.
    Last edited by austinite; 02-02-2013 at 05:18 PM.

  12. #12
    c-Z's Avatar
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    Just like everyone claims clomid is needed for pct. Yet I can recover just fine on novadex. Call my doctor. Ok... heres the issue... everyones body is different. Plain and simple. Or we can all be jay cutler. But we all parrot instead. Damn this is why this forum aggrivates me sometimes...

  13. #13
    OnTheSauce is offline Banned
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    There are worse problems from high estrogen than bitch tits. Why do u feel that's the only concern?

  14. #14
    c-Z's Avatar
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    .God dammit this phone sucks. I just lost my post. Let me see if I can sim.it up again real quick.

    Ai. What is it used for..... "Aromatase inhibitors (AIs) are a class of drugsused in the treatment of breast cancer andovarian cancer in postmenopausal women. AIs may also be used off-label to treat or preventgynaecomastia in men.Aromatase is the enzyme beginnernthesizesestrogen. As breast and ovarian cancers require estrogen to grow, AIs are taken to either block the production of estrogen or block the action of estrogen on receptors."Primary use to prevent gynaecomastia. What else.... bloat? Cmon really...

    "Just because you dont grow tits" this is the main reason people run ai's. The guy is running the most basic cycle. If he were running some outrageous cycle sure I would say run it. But a basic beginner cycl3 he should have no issues. however i did say keep on hand. Im not against ai's i just dont agree with everyone parroting that it is necessary for a beginner cycle.

    Everyones body is different.

    Kind of like how everyone parrots time on + pct = time off. This isnt true in any way. But ismore tan limely the safest method. But the only true method is blood work. Simply because.... everyones body is different. People recover at different rates.
    Last edited by c-Z; 02-02-2013 at 06:45 PM.

  15. #15
    c-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick4588 View Post
    There are worse problems from high estrogen than bitch tits. Why do u feel that's the only concern?
    Decreased strength Decreased endurance Dermatological changes Decreased libido Decreased sexual. erformance Dysphoria (restlessness)FatigueLoss of self-esteemIncreased anxiety A decline in physical energy difficulty in concentration Forgetfulness Insomnia Altered state of well-being

    Once again primary reason ai is ran. Do a google search on what an ai is. I just posted what the PRIMARY reason. For it is. Every drug has a side affect. So lets keep dumping more and more In our bodies. Well this causes this so I need to counter with that. And that causes this so I need to counter this with that. Keep dumping more and more drugs into your system.....

    Are you going to be worrying about muscle loss while cycling damn near 7x if not more test in your system. No cause your test levels are jacked up your feeling like f*cking god! Non of those side affects are going to touch you.

    Ai's have side affects. What are you taking to prevent and counter that?

    Theres a reason your estrogen levels get jacked up. Because your putting outrageous levels of testosterone in your body. So your body reacts. Its a big merry go round.
    Last edited by c-Z; 02-02-2013 at 06:55 PM.

  16. #16
    Justhav2p's Avatar
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    c-z .......

    yes everyones body is different. But for the masses an AI is necessary.

    Do you have bloodwork on cycle to prove your estrogen levels werent outrageous?

    Even if you don't get "sides", you should still be lowering the high estro levels.

  17. #17
    c-Z's Avatar
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    Should but on a minimal cycle estrogen levels wont be threw the roof. I have bloodwork done frequently threwout the year when cycling. I havent cycled in about a year though.

  18. #18
    kjonn is offline New Member
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    Thank you all for the input, it was extremely helpful.

  19. #19
    Justhav2p's Avatar
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    you have your bulking diet all set up already? Gonna eat like a king to grow bro.

  20. #20
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Cardiovascular Dangers of Excess Estrogen

    Conventional medical dogma states that estrogen is cardio-protective while androgens are pro-atherogenic. This fallacy is based on the mere fact that men have higher levels of heart disease than women.

    Excess estrogen in males has many harmful effects, and is definitely not cardio-protective. The following are just a few of the many research studies demonstrating the harmful cardiovascular effects of excess estrogen in males:

    1) Increases Risk of Stroke.
    After adjustment for age, hypertension, diabetes, adiposity, cholesterol, atrial fibrillation, and other characteristics were made in a group of 2,197 men aged 71 to 93 years of age, men with the highest blood levels of estradiol had a 2.2-fold greater risk of stroke, compared with those whose estradiol levels were lower. www .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17310026

    2) Increases carotid artery thickness.
    In a study of 313 men whose average age was 58, carotid artery intima-media thickness was measured at baseline and then three years later. After adjusting for other confounding risk factors, higher levels of estradiol were associated with thickening of the carotid artery wall. Researchers concluded, “Circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.” jcem.endojournals.org/content/91/11/4433.full

    3) Negatively affects lipids and other risk factors for CAD.
    In an angiographic trial of coronary atherosclerosis in a group of men with stable coronary artery disease, significant positive correlations between estradiol levels and other known atherosclerotic risk factors was observed. Researchers concluded, “Our results indicate a possible role of estradiol in promoting the development of atherogenic lipid milieu in men with coronary artery disease.” ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15860391

    4) Promotes coronary atherosclerosis.
    In another angiographic trial of coronary atherosclerosis in men aged 40-60 years, compared with healthy age-matched controls, men with coronary atherosclerosis had higher levels of estrone and a low level of testosterone in the presence of a high level of estradiol. Researchers concluded, “Low levels of total testosterone, testosterone/estradiol ratio and free androgen index and higher levels of estrone in men with coronary artery disease appear together with many features of metabolic syndrome and may be involved in the pathogenesis of coronary atherosclerosis.”
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15669538

    5) Associated with heart attacks.
    In a study of men having suffered an acute myocardial infarction (heart attack), a prior heart attack, and patients with normal coronary arteries, the results showed significantly higher levels of estradiol in both groups of heart attack patients compared with those without coronary disease. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17435665

    6) Increases Blood Pressure
    Excessively high levels of estrogen cause production of superoxide, a potent free radical which damages cell structures and increases blood pressure.
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411770

  21. #21
    thai007goy's Avatar
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    Once again Mickey drops some real knowledge.

  22. #22
    BBrian is offline Productive Member
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    Nice post Mickey. Notice how many pro wrestlers and body builders are dying from coronaries? In many cases extreme narrowing of arteries are found via autopsy.

  23. #23
    Synergy1 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyKnox View Post
    Cardiovascular Dangers of Excess Estrogen

    Conventional medical dogma states that estrogen is cardio-protective while androgens are pro-atherogenic. This fallacy is based on the mere fact that men have higher levels of heart disease than women.

    Excess estrogen in males has many harmful effects, and is definitely not cardio-protective. The following are just a few of the many research studies demonstrating the harmful cardiovascular effects of excess estrogen in males:

    1) Increases Risk of Stroke.
    After adjustment for age, hypertension, diabetes, adiposity, cholesterol, atrial fibrillation, and other characteristics were made in a group of 2,197 men aged 71 to 93 years of age, men with the highest blood levels of estradiol had a 2.2-fold greater risk of stroke, compared with those whose estradiol levels were lower. www .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17310026

    2) Increases carotid artery thickness.
    In a study of 313 men whose average age was 58, carotid artery intima-media thickness was measured at baseline and then three years later. After adjusting for other confounding risk factors, higher levels of estradiol were associated with thickening of the carotid artery wall. Researchers concluded, “Circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.” jcem.endojournals.org/content/91/11/4433.full

    3) Negatively affects lipids and other risk factors for CAD.
    In an angiographic trial of coronary atherosclerosis in a group of men with stable coronary artery disease, significant positive correlations between estradiol levels and other known atherosclerotic risk factors was observed. Researchers concluded, “Our results indicate a possible role of estradiol in promoting the development of atherogenic lipid milieu in men with coronary artery disease.” ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15860391

    4) Promotes coronary atherosclerosis.
    In another angiographic trial of coronary atherosclerosis in men aged 40-60 years, compared with healthy age-matched controls, men with coronary atherosclerosis had higher levels of estrone and a low level of testosterone in the presence of a high level of estradiol. Researchers concluded, “Low levels of total testosterone, testosterone/estradiol ratio and free androgen index and higher levels of estrone in men with coronary artery disease appear together with many features of metabolic syndrome and may be involved in the pathogenesis of coronary atherosclerosis.”
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15669538

    5) Associated with heart attacks.
    In a study of men having suffered an acute myocardial infarction (heart attack), a prior heart attack, and patients with normal coronary arteries, the results showed significantly higher levels of estradiol in both groups of heart attack patients compared with those without coronary disease. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17435665

    6) Increases Blood Pressure
    Excessively high levels of estrogen cause production of superoxide, a potent free radical which damages cell structures and increases blood pressure.
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411770
    I could google.....or ask Mickey. This guy is a library of knowledge.

  24. #24
    syd-bloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyKnox
    Cardiovascular Dangers of Excess Estrogen

    Conventional medical dogma states that estrogen is cardio-protective while androgens are pro-atherogenic. This fallacy is based on the mere fact that men have higher levels of heart disease than women.

    Excess estrogen in males has many harmful effects, and is definitely not cardio-protective. The following are just a few of the many research studies demonstrating the harmful cardiovascular effects of excess estrogen in males:

    1) Increases Risk of Stroke.
    After adjustment for age, hypertension, diabetes, adiposity, cholesterol, atrial fibrillation, and other characteristics were made in a group of 2,197 men aged 71 to 93 years of age, men with the highest blood levels of estradiol had a 2.2-fold greater risk of stroke, compared with those whose estradiol levels were lower. www .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17310026

    2) Increases carotid artery thickness.
    In a study of 313 men whose average age was 58, carotid artery intima-media thickness was measured at baseline and then three years later. After adjusting for other confounding risk factors, higher levels of estradiol were associated with thickening of the carotid artery wall. Researchers concluded, "Circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men." jcem.endojournals.org/content/91/11/4433.full

    3) Negatively affects lipids and other risk factors for CAD.
    In an angiographic trial of coronary atherosclerosis in a group of men with stable coronary artery disease, significant positive correlations between estradiol levels and other known atherosclerotic risk factors was observed. Researchers concluded, "Our results indicate a possible role of estradiol in promoting the development of atherogenic lipid milieu in men with coronary artery disease." ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15860391

    4) Promotes coronary atherosclerosis.
    In another angiographic trial of coronary atherosclerosis in men aged 40-60 years, compared with healthy age-matched controls, men with coronary atherosclerosis had higher levels of estrone and a low level of testosterone in the presence of a high level of estradiol. Researchers concluded, "Low levels of total testosterone, testosterone/estradiol ratio and free androgen index and higher levels of estrone in men with coronary artery disease appear together with many features of metabolic syndrome and may be involved in the pathogenesis of coronary atherosclerosis."
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15669538

    5) Associated with heart attacks.
    In a study of men having suffered an acute myocardial infarction (heart attack), a prior heart attack, and patients with normal coronary arteries, the results showed significantly higher levels of estradiol in both groups of heart attack patients compared with those without coronary disease. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17435665

    6) Increases Blood Pressure
    Excessively high levels of estrogen cause production of superoxide, a potent free radical which damages cell structures and increases blood pressure.
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411770
    Great info but you might as well copy and paste about how taking steroid is not good for your body, specially in this forum where any drug listed is technically not good for the body but we tend to care less and deal with possible consequences. Having said that, you are also right with regards to excess estrogen is not good for male body.

    c-Z is practically right. Although the safe way is not using steroid period, if talking about safe. So taking steroid compared to not taking AI on low dosage is like comparing a house with matchbox when it comes to harmful side effects.

    Making a compound of unnecessary drugs just to assume it may help stop possible gyno should be out of question for anyone.

    Rule of thumbs for generations has been to try first, then take measure to avoid additional side effects.

    Some people are prone to gyno by first or second experience, in this case it is advised to take AI if they really want to cycle. Some like myself are not worried about gyno specially at low dosage and first cycle.

    First cycle should only be ONE kind of testosterone with maximum 8 weeks of pct all depending of blood work thought out the cycle (before, mid, end and then 6th week of pct to consider stop or continuous dose of pct)

    It's just amazing how some people give advice on things they have never experienced personally. This forum has turned from being a source of valid last resort knowledge to a teenage schoolyard with fake wannabes. I say that with no disrespect to anyone in particular. It's just my general observation from reading posts after few years. Stay safe

  25. #25
    BBrian is offline Productive Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by syd-bloke View Post

    It's just amazing how some people give advice on things they have never experienced personally. This forum has turned from being a source of valid last resort knowledge to a teenage schoolyard with fake wannabes. I say that with no disrespect to anyone in particular. It's just my general observation from reading posts after few years. Stay safe
    This site has always been like that. If anything there are probably more knowledgeable people here than ever before, however. And it's no coincidence that medical science has progressed through the years as well.

  26. #26
    MuscleInk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBrian

    This site has always been like that. If anything there are probably more knowledgeable people here than ever before, however. And it's no coincidence that medical science has progressed through the years as well.
    True, and the supposition that an AI should only be taken if gyno symptoms appear is very antiquated. AIs do more than reduce gyno and there are far greater threats from elevated estrogen than vanity issues with your boobs.

  27. #27
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by syd-bloke View Post
    Great info but you might as well copy and paste about how taking steroid is not good for your body, specially in this forum where any drug listed is technically not good for the body but we tend to care less and deal with possible consequences. Having said that, you are also right with regards to excess estrogen is not good for male body.

    c-Z is practically right. Although the safe way is not using steroid period, if talking about safe. So taking steroid compared to not taking AI on low dosage is like comparing a house with matchbox when it comes to harmful side effects.

    Making a compound of unnecessary drugs just to assume it may help stop possible gyno should be out of question for anyone.

    Rule of thumbs for generations has been to try first, then take measure to avoid additional side effects.

    Some people are prone to gyno by first or second experience, in this case it is advised to take AI if they really want to cycle. Some like myself are not worried about gyno specially at low dosage and first cycle.

    First cycle should only be ONE kind of testosterone with maximum 8 weeks of pct all depending of blood work thought out the cycle (before, mid, end and then 6th week of pct to consider stop or continuous dose of pct)

    It's just amazing how some people give advice on things they have never experienced personally. This forum has turned from being a source of valid last resort knowledge to a teenage schoolyard with fake wannabes. I say that with no disrespect to anyone in particular. It's just my general observation from reading posts after few years. Stay safe
    Often myself and others get tired of posting the same thing over and over and over and over again. After awhile, we begin to sound like broken records. So Ive taken upon myself to draft up several "default" answers to common questions that are asked over and over and over and over again. Occasionally i will use something i have read and that i totally agree with based upon my experience, published medical studies, and empirical data.

    And when it comes to Estrogen related issues, i prefer to error on the side of caution. When introducing exogenous testosterone into the male body, invariably Estrogen levels rise. And imho, rising E2 is not something that should be taken lightly. So, including a commonly accepted and widely proven protocol is prudent advice to anyone beginning a cycle, particularly for the first time. This is notwithstanding current, on-cycle, and post blood work.

    However i do agree that anyone with an internet connection and working knowledge of a computer can be "knowledgeable." But you'd have to be glib to think that knowledge gained from sound research has no value in the AAS community.

    My .02..

    Quote Originally Posted by BBrian View Post
    This site has always been like that. If anything there are probably more knowledgeable people here than ever before, however. And it's no coincidence that medical science has progressed through the years as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleInk View Post
    True, and the supposition that an AI should only be taken if gyno symptoms appear is very antiquated. AIs do more than reduce gyno and there are far greater threats from elevated estrogen than vanity issues with your boobs.
    Can't argue with any of this ^^. The information widely available today that supports both these statements is overwhelming.

  28. #28
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    This will answer all the questions regarding if an AI should be ran or not http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...fto&highlight=

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