Buddha Belly / Gorilla Gut. How does one get rid of it?

I've been at this game for 20yrs. When I started I was 135 at 6' tall when I was 20. in that time I have maybe 6 or 7 cycles under my belt, and now weigh in at 229. I took some years off and got to a hefty 240 at one point. BF% probably 30. Its now about 24% and dropping fast while I'm maintaining and gaining lean muscle. I'm half way through a dbol and test e cycle. Dbol 4th week, will be done with the bol then. Continuing e through 8 weeks, then clomid for pct weeks 10 - 16 depending on how my natural production responds to it. I'm making incredible gains, losing fat and replacing it with lean tissue. Not really lost much weight but seeing huge changes in striation and vascularity.

Enough background. Stats:
Ht: 6 ft
Wt: 229
Age: 42
BF: est 24%
Cycle Exp: 10yrs
Training: 22yrs.

My question since I've never been this big before is how do I continue to eat 4k calories/d and 3-400g protein without also maintaining the belly that holds all of it. I have abs and theyre starting to show a little again but I look bloated on the gut, like Kovaks used to look. Hard and vascular but damn 50 inch waist? Not cool! Has anyone else been in my situation before and how did you master thegorilla gut? I don't have a 50 inch waist. Kovaks did. Mines 35 but should and could be 32. I have not done gh either. Its food! Help. Please if you can!

Blenderize your bulky foods would be my suggestion. Liquids will take up less space than the solids your body has to physically break down.

You guessed right, all the food that goes in your stomach stretches the fascia in that area and is indeed partially responsible for the disgusting BB off-season gut.

Food alone, however, isn't the only responsible agent here.

BF%: If your current BF is 24%, then this is something you have to take responsibility and/or blame for, it is way too high, especially considering that you are on a cycle.

Large meals: This is another determining factor. Smaller meals won't stretch the guy as much as large meals, simple physics.

Water: How much effort are you currently putting into regarding sodium and estrogen management? As these two are completely different processes, consequences of poor management of either one leads to the same results: bloating.

Belt: Do you use a belt while performing heavy compound exercises such as deadlifts and/or squats?

Cardio: Although the typical BB cardio, which is walking on the threadmil at a HR somewhere between 120-135bmp will attack fat reserves, it hardly helps you flush out the excessive water stored in your tissues. When you follow a different cardio routine, which involves running for instance, you will sweat more and flush more of the excessive water stored in your tissues. Then there are the passive alternatives of getting rid of excessive water: sauna, steam bath and natural diuretics (tea, coffee, some herbs and etc.)

Core exercises: It is typical of most BB to exercise their core muscles (abs, obliques etc.) with additional weight. This sure helps build bigger & stronger muscles in that area; however, considering that there is also fat and water surrounding those muscles, the bigger your core muscles get, the more your gut sticks out, which is inevitable.

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Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

You guessed right, all the food that goes in your stomach stretches the fascia in that area and is indeed partially responsible for the disgusting BB off-season gut.

Food alone, however, isn't the only responsible agent here.

BF%: If your current BF is 24%, then this is something you have to take responsibility and/or blame for, it is way too high, especially considering that you are on a cycle.

Large meals: This is another determining factor. Smaller meals won't stretch the guy as much as large meals, simple physics.

Water: How much effort are you currently putting into regarding sodium and estrogen management? As these two are completely different processes, consequences of poor management of either one leads to the same results: bloating.

Belt: Do you use a belt while performing heavy compound exercises such as deadlifts and/or squats?

Cardio: Although the typical BB cardio, which is walking on the threadmil at a HR somewhere between 120-135bmp will attack fat reserves, it hardly helps you flush out the excessive water stored in your tissues. When you follow a different cardio routine, which involves running for instance, you will sweat more and flush more of the excessive water stored in your tissues. Then there are the passive alternatives of getting rid of excessive water: sauna, steam bath and natural diuretics (tea, coffee, some herbs and etc.)

Core exercises: It is typical of most BB to exercise their core muscles (abs, obliques etc.) with additional weight. This sure helps build bigger & stronger muscles in that area; however, considering that there is also fat and water surrounding those muscles, the bigger your core muscles get, the more your gut sticks out, which is inevitable.

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BF%: If your current BF is 24%, then this is something you have to take responsibility and/or blame for, it is way too high, especially considering that you are on a cycle.
JM: I realize this. Thank you for the comment though. I don't know if I posted it here or somewhere else by my BF% was at least 30 a little less than a month ago but my overall weight has not really changed (-4lbs over 3 weeks). That means I am converting that fat into LMT. This isn't my first cycle. I forgot to mention that I had been out of the gym for 8 years or so. The gut was there long before I started this cycle. I started training again back in late Dec. 2012. I wasn't that out of shape cardiovascularly. I had just put on some couch potato pounds and lost some muscle mass. I have been 205 @ 9-11%bf in the past so most of the gains so far is muscle memory IMKO. I've always been an avid bicycle rider. I have maintined over that 8 year break by doing pushups and maintenance home workouts. I just hevent trained daily and hard for a long time. This cycle is doing precisely what I intended - diet is mostly protein with some carbs and as little fat as possible. It's a small short kickstart cycle. This is cycle 8 for me after 22 years of study and 10 years of real world experience with AAS. I know what my body responds to. That BF will be down to between 15-20% within a few more weeks. By end of cycle it will be 15% or below. I don't think this - I know this. (Matrix?) lol.

Large meals: This is another determining factor. Smaller meals won't stretch the guy as much as large meals, simple physics.
JM: Yep I hear you. I'm the definition of an ectomorph. My stomach has never been the holding tank that some of my friends have. I get my calories by increasng frequency rather than volume. Currently 6 meals per day with a protein drink in between each one. Not a gainer, just whey and BCAA's and vitiamins, etc. Myoplex knock off but the quality is top notch. I also take animal packs (as mutli) plus Liver-X which contains NAC in addition to milk thistle. NAC is great stuff.
http:wwwwebmdcom/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-1018-N-ACETYL%20CYSTEINE.aspx?activeIngredientId=1018&activeIngredientName=N-ACETYL%20CYSTEINE

Water: How much effort are you currently putting into regarding sodium and estrogen management? As these two are completely different processes, consequences of poor management of either one leads to the same results: bloating.
JM: Yes. I know. I drink 1 -1.5 gallons water daily, plus coffee, teaOnly sodium I'm getting is what occurs naturally in chicken and fish (no skin, no gravy or anything like that), fresh veggies, 1% milk, taters occasionally pre or post workout for a carb boost, etc. meaning I don't add any to my food. Estrogen management I do not have. I will be taking Clomid (oral, 100mg/d) to kick my nads back into gear starting 14d after last test shot end of week 8. I'm not taking anything concurrently during cycle however. I'm getting some aromasin in a few days. I'll see if that helps but I'm not seeing any aromatizing effects as yet. That doesn't mean it isn't there.

Belt: Do you use a belt while performing heavy compound exercises such as deadlifts and/or squats?
JM: Yes. Always. I've seen people get hernias. No better way to stretch your abdominal walls to ripping point than not wearing a belt going super heavy,.

Cardio: Although the typical BB cardio, which is walking on the threadmil at a HR somewhere between 120-135bmp will attack fat reserves, it hardly helps you flush out the excessive water stored in your tissues. When you follow a different cardio routine, which involves running for instance, you will sweat more and flush more of the excessive water stored in your tissues. Then there are the passive alternatives of getting rid of excessive water: sauna, steam bath and natural diuretics (tea, coffee, some herbs and etc.)
JM: I drink coffee (3-4 cups per day in the early morning through noon) and I live a few blocks from the ocean. I jog, hike steep trails for a few miles occasionally, ride a mountain bike often. I don't do cardio in the gym. I get plenty though.

Core exercises: It is typical of most BB to exercise their core muscles (abs, obliques etc.) with additional weight. This sure helps build bigger & stronger muscles in that area; however, considering that there is also fat and water surrounding those muscles, the bigger your core muscles get, the more your gut sticks out, which is inevitable.[/QUOTE]
JM: I don't generally use extra weight for midsection. Lower back yes, occasionally I'l hand a lift belt off my waist with a few light weights wrapped in the chain and do dips which although not a specifically ab working motion I definitely feel it there. Perhaps just keeping the torso balanced and in the proper angle gets them a bit. I like the rope pulldown clenched to the chest bent over ab squeeze. Good ole stiff leg raises for lowers. wist a bit to hit the obliques. old school but it works, and I don't want to get a thick midsection.

Great advice and info, I think my problem will be resolved when I go off this cycle and start the cutting phase. I'm not a competitive bodybuilder. I'm just trying to get back what I lost over that long break. Having a buddha belly is new to me so I was a bit concerned that it may be difficult or impossible to turn that one back but I dont' think so now. I'm already amazed at how quickly Im responding in every area including the midsection since getting back into lifting a few months ago. I don't even look like the same guy I was at the start of this cycle. Kevin Levrone said his 4 year break was probably the best thing he ever did for his body. Maybe there's truth to that for all of us to some degree.

Bottom line is I have stretched the fascia and probably the abdominals themselves. I need to work them to tighten them up. That;s what I'll keep doing!

Thanks for the detailed informative response. I will post before, during and after pics when this cycle is done. Doing a cycle at 42 has made me a new man. I was getting fat and lazy. I didn' tlike that guy at all. I could see 55 coming around the corner and looking like my dad. NFWay!! Doesn't have to be like that.

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Originally Posted by BBJT200

Blenderize your bulky foods would be my suggestion. Liquids will take up less space than the solids your body has to physically break down.

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Good advice. I don't currently have a juicer. I want the one you can put carrots and celery and beets etc in it to make homemade V8 :) but this is something I will start doing to cut down on the sheer mass of my food.

Thanks for taking the time to evaluate my situation guys. I feel a lot better aboutthe fate of my buddha belly now :)

Thinking about geting an electro stimulator. I have put one on a few times a long time ago and I could really feel it - like I had been doing crunches for hours.

If you're referring to the actual pot belly, you can put bf% to the side for a moment and consider the professional bodybuilders I'm sure you've seen with pot bellies, despite their stunningly low body fat. I noticed at some point in the not so distant past that my stomach had started to round out, although I hadn't increased my body fat at all. I put my best broscience to test and refused to eat any meal large enough to create that full feeling, and within six months my stomach shrank back to size. The only undesirable aspect has been an inability to eat a full meal, which often strikes others as odd when I'm attending a formal meal. On the other hand, within two hours my appetite returns with a vengeance, so it works for me.

Great thread guys. I deal with "Buddha syndrome" myself. Bodyfat isn't ideal but nowhere near the OPs %. The whole dissented, bloated, round belly is very frustrating. BBrian, I've also noticed the pro BBs who seem to have this too yet have a low BF%. Been a mystery to me but this thread has definitely shed some light on the issue and given us all some great plans of attack to help alleviate this annoying condition. Thanks TJ and BBrian for the words of wisdom! I'm sick of dealing with this and not having any real answers as to what the whole round belly issue is or how to deal with it so I'm stoked to have run across this thread.

Subbed

I dont want to state the obvious, but surely greatly reducing your carb intake, and perhaps, upping the exercise twice daily (if possible) is one way? Try and have carbs with your breakfast, and post work out meal/shake only.

Yes you will probably lose some overall mass, but remember that 24% isn't just on your stomach, it's all over you. Unfortunately, your stomach will prolly be the last place to lose it...

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Originally Posted by BBrian

If you're referring to the actual pot belly, you can put bf% to the side for a moment and consider the professional bodybuilders I'm sure you've seen with pot bellies, despite their stunningly low body fat. I noticed at some point in the not so distant past that my stomach had started to round out, although I hadn't increased my body fat at all. I put my best broscience to test and refused to eat any meal large enough to create that full feeling, and within six months my stomach shrank back to size. The only undesirable aspect has been an inability to eat a full meal, which often strikes others as odd when I'm attending a formal meal. On the other hand, within two hours my appetite returns with a vengeance, so it works for me.

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That's me! I shouldn't have stated my BF%. First off, I have not had it tested so I am totally guessing. It's probably not tha high, and it probably wasn't near 30% before this cycle. I have lost at least 5 or 6% of it and I have gained lean mass in the past 4 weeks though of that I am positive. Second is that other than my mid section my skin is thin enough that I can see striations. If I didn't have this gut fat ( and I also do not have a "pot belly", which I didn't clearly state before either) I would guess that I'd be 10-12% bf. BF% is misleading in that it assumes fat distribution is uniform. It;s also hard to give someone advice or an opinion on how to control something when they have not seen you. Alas I have not posted any pics of myself.

Problem is ONLY that I am able to push my belly out to the point where I look pregnant. I can also bring it in to the point where you can start to see little ripples where my abs are but there's still too much fat there. If I showed you a pic of my legs, chest, arms, upper back etc. all except my belly area you would think I was 10-12%. I hadn't considered stretched fascia for some reason. When the poster above brought that up the bell went off. That explains why I have to consciously keep my abs tight in order to keep from having that gorilla look. I wouldn't describe it as bloated, nor would I describe it as fat in the obese sense. The best way I can describe it I guess is that the muscles in my belly are "loose". They're there as always, but held together loosely.

I have been reading about loose fascia in the belly and believe it or not, much can be gained in this area by talking to body building females who have gone through pregnancy. That;s who I'm talking to now :)

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Originally Posted by Flagg

I dont want to state the obvious, but surely greatly reducing your carb intake, and perhaps, upping the exercise twice daily (if possible) is one way? Try and have carbs with your breakfast, and post work out meal/shake only.

Yes you will probably lose some overall mass, but remember that 24% isn't just on your stomach, it's all over you. Unfortunately, your stomach will prolly be the last place to lose it...

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You would be absolutely correct if I had not misled you to believe that I am obese. I'm not. That 24% is not all over, in fact I doubt if my BF is 24% at all. I have never had a belly. Ever. So I don't know how to deal with it. lol. I guess everyone should be so lucky.

The next time I'm posting something and including BF% I will make sure I have had it tested first. I'm talking out of my ass otherwise. BF% is assumed to be distributed evenly as I said in my post above (not OP). Saying 24% with no pics to go with it is misleading. Guessing about bodyfat% is stupid.

There I said it before anyone else could!

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Originally Posted by OdinsOtherSon

Great thread guys. I deal with "Buddha syndrome" myself. Bodyfat isn't ideal but nowhere near the OPs %. The whole dissented, bloated, round belly is very frustrating. BBrian, I've also noticed the pro BBs who seem to have this too yet have a low BF%. Been a mystery to me but this thread has definitely shed some light on the issue and given us all some great plans of attack to help alleviate this annoying condition. Thanks TJ and BBrian for the words of wisdom! I'm sick of dealing with this and not having any real answers as to what the whole round belly issue is or how to deal with it so I'm stoked to have run across this thread.

Subbed

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In discussing this with some female BB's who have had a few children and then got their abs back into contest shape very quickly I am convinced I have loose fascia. I need to do the "Post childbirth" ab workout :) Try it!

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Originally Posted by Java Man

In discussing this with some female BB's who have had a few children and then got their abs back into contest shape very quickly I am convinced I have loose fascia. I need to do the "Post childbirth" ab workout :) Try it!

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What is the post childbirth ab workout??

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Originally Posted by THE HOGG

What is the post childbirth ab workout??

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I have no idea, but it sounds interesting. ^

I'm 52 and the thing I've noticed is that as I get older, I feel more "bloated" after I eat. When I was in my 20's I'd eat a whole pig and just feel full. Now, I eat dinner and just feel bloated. I think the thickening of the midsection is just age appropriate. I've also found that I don't need 4000 cal/ed to gain weight. I just eat 2000 poor calories a day and I gain fat. I have to be way more careful of what I eat as well as how much I eat. Diet is much more important for middle aged BB. My .02

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Originally Posted by ScotchGuard02

I'm 52 and the thing I've noticed is that as I get older, I feel more "bloated" after I eat. When I was in my 20's I'd eat a whole pig and just feel full. Now, I eat dinner and just feel bloated. I think the thickening of the midsection is just age appropriate. I've also found that I don't need 4000 cal/ed to gain weight. I just eat 2000 poor calories a day and I gain fat. I have to be way more careful of what I eat as well as how much I eat. Diet is much more important for middle aged BB. My .02

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Brother, you just summed me up to a tee. I totally agree and the older I get the more I'm convinced that the caloric needs for a middle aged BB to grow is considerably less than for a 20 something. Like you I used to be able to eat half a beef at one sitting and finish out the day like a humming bird. Now 8oz of chicken with some rice and I'm read for a f'n nap!

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Originally Posted by ScotchGuard02

I'm 52 and the thing I've noticed is that as I get older, I feel more "bloated" after I eat. When I was in my 20's I'd eat a whole pig and just feel full. Now, I eat dinner and just feel bloated. I think the thickening of the midsection is just age appropriate. I've also found that I don't need 4000 cal/ed to gain weight. I just eat 2000 poor calories a day and I gain fat. I have to be way more careful of what I eat as well as how much I eat. Diet is much more important for middle aged BB. My .02

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I agree with you on this bro.Hell if I ate 4000 I would be obease.

Like Flagg said, watching your carb intake can help quite a bit. So many severely overdo their carb intake in an effort to grow and this is a big mistake. Although I'm not a fan of fad diets, which in some ways the gluten free diet is, if you cut out or at least severely limit your gluten this will help.

As for the pro BB's with the big hard lean gut, I think insulin is the primary culprit along with the massive amount of food....along with the use of other hormones like IGF-1 and HGH to a degree.

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Originally Posted by ScotchGuard02

I'm 52 and the thing I've noticed is that as I get older, I feel more "bloated" after I eat. When I was in my 20's I'd eat a whole pig and just feel full. Now, I eat dinner and just feel bloated. I think the thickening of the midsection is just age appropriate. I've also found that I don't need 4000 cal/ed to gain weight. I just eat 2000 poor calories a day and I gain fat. I have to be way more careful of what I eat as well as how much I eat. Diet is much more important for middle aged BB. My .02

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You've got me in years, I'm 34 but even at 34 I can tell a big difference in the way my body digest food. I stay away from all bread, rice and anything sugary...the exception would be my weekly cheat meal where I eat whatever I want. I feel much better when my carbs come from oats (not the packets) and some potatoes, red, white or sweet. Everything else makes me feel really bloated. Funny though, when I was in my mid-20's and really into bodybuilding I would eat 7-8 meals a day and often snacks in between those meals because I was so hungry and training hard...too hard in retrospect. But if I ate like that now I'd have to get you guys to come over and help me role out of this chair.

I'm 52 and I've got the same problem. I actually have a visible six-pack but with a buddha belly. If I relax I look 6 months pregnant, pull my gut in and I look ripped. I've found the problem is adipose tissue or visceral fat. It's the fat surrounding the internal organs and apparently one of the hardest types to get rid of. There's a peptide HGH FRAG 176-191 I've been reading about that's supposed to be effective.

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Originally Posted by THE HOGG

What is the post childbirth ab workout??

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Work abs every day. Finish out whatever your routine its for the day and then hit abs.
1. Crunches to failure. I prefer deep decline for these. I feel it much more intensely.
2. Stiff leg raises. If you can't do stiff yet , bend knees slightly until you can do these. Only bend a much us needed in order to perform the movement. Don't cheat yourself. Soon you won't need to bend knees anymore.
3. I like doing cable crunches by holding the handle or rope tight to my chest. You can lower the center by moving the position of the handle or rope down. Hit different areas that way. Rope grip just feels better.
4. Cybex or equivalent oblique machine.
5. Hang upside down from cable crossover rack and perform controlled crunches.this probably won't be possible until you'v tightened up from doing the above.
6. Electro stimulation belt. Wear it every day, all day. Let abs rest at night ie don't wear the stimulator to bed.


In 6 weeks you should be tightened up and showing... And I don't mean showing like yer 5 mos. Pregnant!

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Originally Posted by ScotchGuard02

I'm 52 and the thing I've noticed is that as I get older, I feel more "bloated" after I eat. When I was in my 20's I'd eat a whole pig and just feel full. Now, I eat dinner and just feel bloated. I think the thickening of the midsection is just age appropriate. I've also found that I don't need 4000 cal/ed to gain weight. I just eat 2000 poor calories a day and I gain fat. I have to be way more careful of what I eat as well as how much I eat. Diet is much more important for middle aged BB. My .02

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I've been out of the gym for 8 years and have been eating like I would have at 34. I may need to reevaluate my caloric needs. Im sure my metabolismhas slowed down. You've got 10 yrs on me but I don't think anything is age appropriate. Jack lalaine had washboard abs in his 90.s. We have to work harder at it and make adjustments but I refuse to believe that I'll have a thick abdomen from now on just because I'm aging.

One thing I have not seen mentioned that I find helps a lot, Suck it in. A lot of people get the Buddha belly because they are relaxed or even get use to pushing it out instead of holding it in, tightening your core when lifting and just doing nothing. I noticed in Jr. High my belly was starting to stick out and I started practicing holding it in and it has always worked.

Look up doing vacuum exercises for core.

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Originally Posted by lovbyts

One thing I have not seen mentioned that I find helps a lot, Suck it in. A lot of people get the Buddha belly because they are relaxed or even get use to pushing it out instead of holding it in, tightening your core when lifting and just doing nothing. I noticed in Jr. High my belly was starting to stick out and I started practicing holding it in and it has always worked.

Look up doing vacuum exercises for core.

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Oh yeah I do suck it in. I have gotten lazy about it over the years and realized in the past year or so that I wasn't even attempting to hold it in anymore. I was just letting gravity do its work. I.m nowhere near as big as arnold, but think of how he looked pregnant in junior. It just looks wrong for a otherwise fit, muscular individual to have a belly.

I'll check out vacuum exercises. Thanks!

Have you considered that maybe your pelvis maybe tilted, thus causing your posture to be compromised too?

A tilted pelvis can cause your stomach to stick out. A chiropractor visits might be needed to re align your posture.

I have to thank you. i am 5 years older than you but similar body responses. TEST E and serostim and am a amateur. had to make an excuse to break a date with a girl i,m into because of distended abdomen. flat out embarrassed. my diet is lazy , i cheat w/garbage all the time , my work outs are jokes ( i,m a ex-freak- totally natural , brick sh*thouse from 16 -36 , 10 years no serious exercise except for one yr of intense cardio , 2.5 hrs 4 days a week. lost 80 lbs. now 6'2" 255 lbs , was 240 before test e (1.5 units/wk) then ser***m hgh after 4 weeks test. Well , pissed about losing the nice intimate night, thus the post.My huge distended belly left me self conscious about being with this girl. Huge , tight as drum belly. ate salty chinese food earlier in day , still am lazy to the pt of three lame work outs a week. Not pity party just info (people on here amazingly compassionate and helpful) but am survivor of bad accident ( insane # of spinal fusions and orth. trauma). Lost all that work (from 16-36) till the flabby triceps area , cellulite , etc. , well could not take any more. went to trusted family. results test e w/ser***m hgh 2iu/day . everything was fine until GG , Gorilla gut hit tonight(i just found that term 2nite, perfect description). So thats my dilemma , not a strict -life guy but know that 19 year olds body is under there , within reason. My calves and thighs , traps responded bigtime immediately , loved it. I dont focus well so any response from the good people here is greatly appreciated. if i broke any rules , please accept my apologies. Bless everyone on here.there are great people on here , selfless. Love it.

Now , you are my age and talkin' my language . I dont want to look like a BB , all respect , just want to feel like a brick wall like i did until late thirties. I dig test e , hgh , feel they will make those wishes of young vigor and strength manifest . I need to know what is imperative not to do to go the other direction , looking like the guy with really strong build but has a belly that sticks out , whether alone or "sucking it in" out and about which is a trick I am well schooled in ...........i,m a childhood fatty turned linebacker whose belly always protruded. Now , I want to learn to have that belly stay in line without the now "involuntary" effort to suck it in . Boy , I love the internet , these things are things we feel we are alone in life about , no?

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Originally Posted by lovbyts

One thing I have not seen mentioned that I find helps a lot, Suck it in. A lot of people get the Buddha belly because they are relaxed or even get use to pushing it out instead of holding it in, tightening your core when lifting and just doing nothing. I noticed in Jr. High my belly was starting to stick out and I started practicing holding it in and it has always worked.

Look up doing vacuum exercises for core.

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I have been consciously sucking it in every waking moment since I read this, and now really don't have to try to suck it in... It just stays 'sucked in'. Either that or I'm so used to ding it I don't notice it as a conscious act anymore.

Either way, great advice. Thanks ;)

So glad this thread exists. My belly always sticks out, I have some visible abs but the sheer amount of water I consume and food means it sticks out if relaxed. I always tense it, becomes a subconscious thing after a while. I look good in the morning when belly is empty, but it all starts again when I neck my first pint of water n have breakfast.

Something else I've been doing that I'm not really conscious of anymore that probably helps with that sucking it in feeling not being an active thing I have to think about.

I'll contact and release my abs when I'm laying on the couch watching tv or reading or whatever it may be when I'm doing my favorite thing... laying on the couch! about once per 2 seconds (I don't count). I probably do several hundred or maybe thousands. Every day. I don't know because I do it now like some people clench their jaw constantly or wiggle their toes etc. I don't notice that I'm doing it anymore.