which one do you prefer for PCT
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which one do you prefer for PCT
If you only could use one, Nolvadex.
But you always can use both so use both! It will give a better faster safer way to recover.
Clomid vs Nolvadex is never the case of us board members, it is always both.
... but, if for any reason a choice was to be made, Nolvadex.
Why nolva? What makes it better
I have always used Nolvadex only & made 100% recovery every time.
I'm not a fan of anything that has potential side effects to my vision, permanent or not............I wont touch it.
Not to mention, based on my experience, it seems as though Clomid is an unnecessary compound when you can obviously make full recovery with Nolva only..................
Ok here is different kind of answers once again what comes about Nolva and Clomid. So it's better to use HCG and Nolva only and save some money not to buy Clomi.
Again, if two had to be chosen out of the three, then it would be HCG as an OCT agent and Nolvadex as the PCT agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaakoppi
Because it acts as an anti-estrogen in the Pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. Clinical trials showed that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150%, which Clomid alone is incapable of doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Armykid93
bear who is that in your pic ???Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bear 79
I'v always used nolva and recoverd fine but my last cycle i didn't but i never use hcg don't know if that would have made a difference. Only because i can't get clomid but can now.
They say you can recover a lot faster by using HCG during cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by clarky.
I know av got it now 4 my next cycle in a couple of wks :happy:
My mother..........Quote:
Originally Posted by clarky.
i prefer both for PCT... and HCG on cycle
IMO, both are required for a good PCT.
Your mother seems to recover just fine from nolva alone hahahahahaa :7up:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bear 79
Thanks for the infoQuote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer
thats not entirely accurate... And theres other factors in play there... and it depends on the time frame...Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer
clomid will raise Test levels much higher much faster than nolva will...
come on turk, i know u are more intelligent than that...
“The following explains why it is prudent to use BOTH Nolvadex and Clomid together in your PCT. It is by Dr Scally - probably the foremost expert in the United States on this topic.” JimmyInk’dUp.
Med Hypotheses. 2009 Jun;72(6):723-8. Epub 2009 Feb 23.
Anabolic steroid -induced hypogonadism--towards a unified hypothesis of anabolic steroid action.
Tan RS, Scally MC.
Source
HPT/Axis Inc., 1660 Beaconshire Road, Houston, TX 77077, USA.
Abstract
Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism (ASIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone and/or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids . Anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS), both prescription and nonprescription, use is a cause of ASIH. Current AAS use includes prescribing for wasting associated conditions. Nonprescription AAS use is also believed to lead to AAS dependency or addiction. Together these two uses account for more than four million males taking AAS in one form or another for a limited duration. While both of these uses deal with the effects of AAS administration they do not account for the period after AAS cessation. The signs and symptoms of ASIH directly impact the observation of an increase in muscle mass and muscle strength from AAS administration and also reflect what is believed to demonstrate AAS dependency. More significantly, AAS prescribing after cessation adds the comorbid condition of hypogonadism to their already existing chronic illness. ASIH is critical towards any future planned use of AAS or similar compound to effect positive changes in muscle mass and muscle strength as well as an understanding for what has been termed anabolic steroid dependency. The further understanding and treatments that mitigate or prevent ASIH could contribute to androgen therapies for wasting associated diseases and stopping nonprescription AAS use. This paper proposes a unified hypothesis that the net effects for anabolic steroid administration must necessarily include the period after their cessation or ASIH.
PMID: 19231088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Future treatments:
A treatment goal of HPTA restoration will have its basis in the regulation and control of testosterone production. The HPTA has two components, both spermatogenesis and testosterone production.
In males, luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion by the pituitary positively stimulates testicular testosterone (T) production; follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) stimulates testicular spermatozoa production. The pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus stimulates LH and FSH secretion. In general, absent FSH, there is no spermatozoa production; absent LH, there is no testosterone production. Regulation of the secretion of GnRH, FSH, and LH occurs partially by the negative feedback of testosterone and estradiol at the level of the hypothalamo-pituitary. Estradiol has a much larger, inhibitory effect than testosterone, being 200-fold more effective in suppressing LHsecretion.
In the case of ASIH, where the individual suffers from functional hypogonadism and the belief for eventual return of function, treatment is directed at HPTA restoration. A medical quandary for physicians presented with hypogonadal patients secondary to AAS administration is there is currently no FDA approved drug to restore
HPTA function. Standard treatment to this point has been testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ), conservative therapy (‘‘watchful waiting” or ‘‘do nothing”), or off-label prescribing of aromatase inhibitors or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERM).
The primary drawback of testosterone replacement and hCG administration is that this therapy is infinite in nature. These treatments will remedy the signs and symptoms associated with hypogonadism, but do not alleviate the need for a life-long commitment to therapy. Further, administration serves to further HPTA suppression.
Conservative therapy (‘‘watchful waiting” or ‘‘do nothing”) is the probably worst case option as this does nothing to treat the patient with ASIH. Also, conservative therapy will have the undesirable result of the nonprescription AAS user to return to AAS use as a means to avoid ASIH signs and symptoms.
The aromatase inhibitors demonstrate the ability to cause an elevation of the gonadotropins and secondarily serum testosterone [62]. The administration of SERMs is a common treatment in attempts to restore the HPTA because they increase LH secretion from the pituitary that leads to increased local testosterone production
[63–67].
Guay has used clomiphene citrate as therapy for erection dysfunction and secondary hypogonadism. Patients received clomiphene citrate 50 mg per day for 4 months in an attempt to raise their testosterone level [68]. Clomiphene has been reported in a case study to reverse andropause secondary to anabolic–androgenic steroid use [69]. The patient received clomiphene citrate 50 mg twice per day in an attempt to raise his testosterone level. The patient when followed up after two months had a relapse, tiredness and loss of libido, after discontinuing clomiphene citrate. There are case study reports demonstrating the effectiveness of the combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen in HPTA restoration after stopping AAS administration [70–73]. Clomiphene is a mixture of the trans (enclomiphene) and is (zuclomiphene) enantiomers, which have opposite effects upon the estradiol receptor [74]. Enclomiphene is an estradiol antagonist, while zuclomiphene is an estradiol agonist. The addition of tamoxifen to clomiphene might be expected to increase the overall antagonism of the estradiol receptor.
"Clomiphene is an antiestrogen, which decreases the estrogen effect in the body. It has a dual effect by stimulating the hypothalamic pituitary area and it has an antiestrogenic effect, so that it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body. Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen; it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary, allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administering them together produces an elevation of LH and secondary gonadal sex hormones. " Dr Michael Scally
Haaaa haaaaa fu*king mad manQuote:
Originally Posted by The Bear 79
Mickey, you know my stance and opinions on Clomid, so I won't repeat all that here lol. But the 'Dr. Sally' hypothesis you posted is great information, HOWEVER... I will say this: at no point in that hypothesis did it mention that Clomiphene and Nolvadex together were more effective than Nolvadex administration alone for PCT. It simply outlined the fact that Clomid has both agonistic and antagonistic effects on the potuitary gland - something Nolvadex, to my knowlege, does not. The hypothesis is basically saying that Clomid on it's own is a bad idea, and to maximize Clomid's effecitveness, it needs to be utilized with Nolvadex. Nolvadex alone, however... doesn't work any worse at restoring HPTA function.
I think you have rushed into this response and missed a very important point here: a direct comparison of both compounds on a mg basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonada8
Show me a study regarding what 20mg of Clomid is capable of and I'll admit to being not as intelligent as I seem to be.
You really need to stop cluttering threads with your irrelevant responses, it is getting to a point of major frustration...Quote:
Originally Posted by clarky.
Oh i know exactly where you stand and i completely respect your opinion Atomini. In fact you and i had a banter about this very topic one evening last year if im not mistaken. And your point was well made and supported.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
The transparent truth is, you were so convincing that i almost changed my opinion based on your points of logic and comments. However, i have since stood by the Clomid Nolva combo as the data supports the use of BOTH for a smooth recovery, start up, and complete PCT.
Again, this is simply my opinion.
lol.... 20mg of clomid vs 20mg of nolva? that is completely unrealistic considering the doses of them are different... In that case, yes you are correct. Nolva is better at that dose. But that is not a theraputic dose of clomid, so of course it wouldnt have nearly the same effect...Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer
thats like saying that 50mcg of fentanyl is better than 50mcg of morphine ( aside from the metabolism differences and onset of action) the comparison of doses is completely unrealistic.
now if u use a proper dose of clomid ( 100mg) then you get much higher response...
The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3119649
100mg clomid increased test 304%
and another:
Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830
actually here, they used 25mg daily... and it raised test 240%...
and considering its in a PCT setting, the low T level by the subjects fits right in line with the low hormone state following a cycle
one area that ive found that concerns that point is the differing actions that it has regarding LH pulses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini
Clomid increases the amplitude of the LH spike, but nothing with frequency
Nolva increaeses the frequency of the LH spike, but no amplitude change...
And regarding they are very similar drugs, that this effect would be compounded into more spikes at a higher ampitude.
but with extended doses, you have the desensitization issues..
when i get some free time, ill get back to work on my plan to finalize a article about it.
I never thought id say this but I agree with Lemonada.
Also Scally has worked with thousands of patients and observed better recovery with bot than either alone the above merely explains why he believes that to be he case- thats good enough for me (esp when you combine it with my persona experiences finding I recover better using both).
Also if I could pick just one..if i HAD too it would be clomid. It has FAR more data and documentation supporting its use and function at treating steroid induced andropause (see guay et al)
Dr Scally has said that in his practice using both together had better results than using just Nolvadex,this was verified with bloodwork....Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomini