For those who need further proof for Nolvadex's effectiveness for HPTA recovery!

[Turkish Juicer]

Nolvadex best T-booster of the SERMS

You’ve just taken a course of steroids and are looking for something to normalise your testosterone level. You can’t make up your mind between good old nolvadex, alias tamoxifen, and its cousins raloxifene and toremifene. Greek researchers have published the results of a study in Fertility & Sterility which suggests that tamoxifen is the best choice.

Tamoxifen , raloxifene and toremifene are SERMs: they attach themselves to the receptor for estradiol but don’t start up the processes that usually follow after estradiol has attached itself to its receptor. That’s why doctors use SERMS against tumours whose growth is stimulated by female hormones.

Chemical athletes use SERMs because they raise the testosterone level. One of the ways that the body monitors its own production of sex hormones is by keeping an eye on the concentration of estradiol in the blood. If it gets too high then sex hormone production is reduced – including the production of testosterone. Because the control mechanisms make use of estradiol receptors, SERMs crank up testosterone production. That’s why chemical athletes use substances like tamoxifen after taking a course of steroids .

The Greek researchers did a trial with just under three hundred infertile men, whose sperm count was low and most of whom had low levels of testosterone production. The researchers gave the men either 20 mg tamoxifen, 60 mg toremifene or 60 mg raloxifene daily for three months. The table below shows what happened to the men’s LH, FSH and testosterone levels .



Raloxifene has little effect on the testosterone level, so it’s not an interesting candidate for a Post Cycle Therapy supplement. Toremifene is somewhat better, but doesn’t perform as well as tamoxifen, and it loses its maximum effect after two months as well.

To complete the story we’ve added the table below, which shows the effect of the three on sperm cells. Once again, raloxifene performs less well than tamoxifen and toremifene.



The researchers suspect that the two more effective SERMs not only work through the body’s hormonal thermostat, thereby inducing the pituitary gland to make more messenger hormones [which in turn get the testes to produce more testosterone]. They think that tamoxifen and toremifene also have a direct effect on the testosterone producing cells.

Source: Fertil Steril. 2009 Apr;91(4 Suppl):1427-30.

ergo-log

The article below is particularly interesting because it shows how Nolvadex is still effective even when taken simultaneously with Testosterone.

Testicle size worries? Try a course of Nolvadex + Andriol

Taking steroids by definition reduces your body’s own testosterone production, underground handbooks will tell you. Well, not necessarily. In the 1990s Greek endocrinologists at the Elena Venizelou Hospital published the results of a study in which they had given men light doses that increased the body’s own testosterone production.

In an article published in Fertility & Sterility in 1997, the Greeks describe an experiment they did with eighty men who had low sperm counts. Some of them were given fake medicine – the placebo group. Another group were given 10 mg tamoxifen, the active ingredient in Nolvadex, twice a day. The third group were given three capsules a day containing 40 mg of testosterone undecanoate, the active ingredient in Andriol. [The structures of both these are shown above.] The last group took both Nolvadex and testosterone-undecanoate. The researchers measured the hormone levels in the men’s blood and their sperm quality after three and six months.

The researchers reported that there was quite a difference in the values for testosterone and for FSH – a messenger hormone that triggers the production of testosterone in the testes. But from the patchy information they give, we’ve managed to put together the table below. The picture is clear, but not all trends are statistically significant. N= Nolvadex; N+A = Nolvadex + Andriol.

In the bottom row you can see that the combination of Andriol and Nolvadex not only results in a higher testosterone level, but also in more FSH. So it is possible: to take androgens and at the same time stimulate the pituitary and the testes to produce more testosterone.

When a course of steroids is taken the testes usually shrink in size. But during this trial the volume of the testes actually increased. In the graph below the solid line represents the testes volume of the placebo group. The line with dots and dashes represents the Andriol group. The line with long dashes represents the Nolvadex group, and the line with short dashes represents the men who took Andriol + Nolvadex.



The men also produced more sperm as a result of the treatment, and the combination of Andriol and Nolvadex was most effective.

Source:Fertil Steril. 1997 Apr;67(4):756-62.

ergo-log

Saved the best to the last, a direct quotation from Power PCT Program by Dr. Michael Scally:

''clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.''

If Clomid produces estrogenic action in the pituitary, doesn't this also mean it only serve to inhibit LH secretion?

[fit2bOld]

Good research TJ. Way to many young guys coming here without any clue. This will help, if we can get them to read it!

[jimmyinkedup]

If Clomid produces estrogenic action in the pituitary, doesn't this also mean it only serve to inhibit LH secretion?

The agonist/antagonist activity is in all likelihood what makes clomid/nolva combined more effective than either alone. Also Scally has documented the combo is better than nolva alone. In addition Guay has literally thousands of case studies documenting the effectiveness of clomid alone.
Not to say tamox alone will not work - it will. Will it be the best option? IMO no- a combo of clomid and tamox is. So I wanna look for the best solo option? - Well Clomid by far has the most hard data to support its effectiveness for this purpose. Its an interesting topic and im sure as more dtata becomes avaiabe this will evolve - however I wouldnt make assumptions which course ill prove to be the best solo serm or multi serm therapy. Also who is to say - the future may be in torem/nolva or torem/clomid. I do not see raloxifene being an effective option for pct. Its binding affinity to the estrogen receptor in breast tissue is second to none but it is the weakest serm as far as induction of T production.

[analovz]

I just popped Nolva =)

[BlueWaffle21]

Last cycle I did Clomid/Nolva and experienced a host of sides including emotional and physical BUT my balls returned to normal, no HCG during cycle, extremely fast and my libido was through the roof for the first time in a while. This cycle I just finished I used HCG during cycle and switched to Torem and Nolva, it has taken much longer for my balls to return to full size and the libido isn't there. I don't have any emotional or physical sides so I guess the trade of is Fast/Full recovery and sides vs Slow/Ok Recovery and no sides.

Having done both, I think I will go back to the Clomid/Nolva due to how fast it acted and how great I felt after the sides wore off. It was miserable during the PCT and shortly after but felt great a month or two after completion of PCT.

[Turkish Juicer]

@jimmyinkedup: First of all, thank you for your contribution to this thread. Second of all, I am well aware of the fact that Tamoxifen and Clomifen combined deliver the best results regarding both pace and quality of overall HPTA recovery. I know this from experience as well as research has shown. I would like everyone to know that my main motivation behind starting this thread wasn't blessing a single compound by showing its effectiveness over the others; on the contrary, to prevent the image of an extremely useful and safe (regarding short-term use) compound to be bashed, as there have been tendencies as such lately (certainly excluding the posts of lemonada8 here as they have been only useful thus far).

This being said, it is indeed true that there has been way more research made regarding Clomid than Nolvadex and consequentially, way more data/evidence has accumulated up to date. Unfortunately, the very same goes for Toremifene, which my very own research has indicated to be the new generation, non-toxic, overall better version of Nolvadex, although there is not enough hard evidence for this to be uttered quite yet.

Intellectual debate aside; numerous cycles and no TRT, no gyno, no acne and/or depression due to elevated estrogen levels so far is my story of AAS use... God bless modern AIs, SERMs and HCG is all I will say at this point, especially when I think about everything that could have gone wrong so far.

[Turkish Juicer]

Last cycle I did Clomid/Nolva and experienced a host of sides including emotional and physical BUT my balls returned to normal, no HCG during cycle, extremely fast and my libido was through the roof for the first time in a while. This cycle I just finished I used HCG during cycle and switched to Torem and Nolva, it has taken much longer for my balls to return to full size and the libido isn't there. I don't have any emotional or physical sides so I guess the trade of is Fast/Full recovery and sides vs Slow/Ok Recovery and no sides.

Having done both, I think I will go back to the Clomid/Nolva due to how fast it acted and how great I felt after the sides wore off. It was miserable during the PCT and shortly after but felt great a month or two after completion of PCT.

Seems like you should also try the Torem/Clomid combo to see how that may treat you.

[clarky.]

Great post tj.

[jimmyinkedup]

@jimmyinkedup: First of all, thank you for your contribution to this thread. Second of all, I am well aware of the fact that Tamoxifen and Clomifen combined deliver the best results regarding both pace and quality of overall HPTA recovery. I know this from experience as well as research has shown. I would like everyone to know that my main motivation behind starting this thread wasn't blessing a single compound by showing its effectiveness over the others; on the contrary, to prevent the image of an extremely useful and safe (regarding short-term use) compound to be bashed, as there have been tendencies as such lately (certainly excluding the posts of lemonada8 here as they have been only useful thus far).

This being said, it is indeed true that there has been way more research made regarding Clomid than Nolvadex and consequentially, way more data/evidence has accumulated up to date. Unfortunately, the very same goes for Toremifene, which my very own research has indicated to be the new generation, non-toxic, overall better version of Nolvadex, although there is not enough hard evidence for this to be uttered quite yet.

Intellectual debate aside; numerous cycles and no TRT, no gyno, no acne and/or depression due to elevated estrogen levels so far is my story of AAS use... God bless modern AIs, SERMs and HCG is all I will say at this point, especially when I think about everything that could have gone wrong so far.

We are in total agreement Turkish...

[BlueWaffle21]

Seems like you should also try the Torem/Clomid combo to see how that may treat you.

Worth a shot I guess!!! Either way, great initial post and great info!

What does your PCT consist of?

[likelifting]

The 1 friggin SERM I DON'T have on hand.

[jimmyinkedup]

The 1 friggin SERM I DON'T have on hand.

Tamox is definitely the one, if there has to be just one, you want on hand. It is the most versatile in my opinion. It can address gyno as well as restart hpta - both effectively. I do always have tamox on hand and should have posted so earlier in the thread.

[Atomini]

I agree with everything. I have been saying this stuff for years now and it's as if this information just flies right over people's heads.

[Papa-pwn]

I eat my wheaties with liquid tamoxifen

[Far from massive]

Curious if any of you guys have used low doses (10 mg) as opposed to the usual (at least in most of the threads on PCT ) 20-40 mg often higher the first week of Tamox. In the test above 10mg was used and also in the studies done by Scally on a long term user with long term problems the same 10mg's was used with great results. The reason I ask this is that I see many users of Tamox and Clomid complaining of sides, perhaps with a reduction in dosage to 10mg's these sides would be much less of a problem but the effect on restoration would still be good?

[noon]

Good read all around thanks for the info

[MickeyKnox]

I agree with everything. I have been saying this stuff for years now and it's as if this information just flies right over people's heads.

I recall vividly.

Great post and article TJ.

[Atomini]

I recall vividly.

Great post and article TJ.

Glad to see my information has stuck .

[MR10X]

Curious if any of you guys have used low doses (10 mg) as opposed to the usual (at least in most of the threads on PCT ) 20-40 mg often higher the first week of Tamox. In the test above 10mg was used and also in the studies done by Scally on a long term user with long term problems the same 10mg's was used with great results. The reason I ask this is that I see many users of Tamox and Clomid complaining of sides, perhaps with a reduction in dosage to 10mg's these sides would be much less of a problem but the effect on restoration would still be good?

I have done it and had good sucess with it.Clomid and Nolvadex has an approximate half life of 6 days so it builds up in your system. I used 50mg Clomid and 10mg nolvadex and had blood work done which showed full recovery. There was a thread on this same subject but it was deleated for strange reason

[warmouth]

Great post. What do you guys think about people using low doses of nolva on cycle? 10-20mgs daily. I see it a lot, so I would like to know if there is any reason, other than the benefits on the lipids?

[Atomini]

Great post. What do you guys think about people using low doses of nolva on cycle? 10-20mgs daily. I see it a lot, so I would like to know if there is any reason, other than the benefits on the lipids?

I wouldn't do it simply because of Nolvadex 's effects on reducing serum IGF-1, even if it is at a low dose. I always say that if you don't have any need for an Estrogen blocker, don't run it (that includes both SERMs and AIs). And if you do need to run it, do so at the lowest possible effective dose.

[warmouth]

I wouldn't do it simply because of Nolvadex's effects on reducing serum IGF-1, even if it is at a low dose. I always say that if you don't have any need for an Estrogen blocker, don't run it (that includes both SERMs and AIs). And if you do need to run it, do so at the lowest possible effective dose.

I'm glad you said it

[Atomini]

I'm glad you said it

At first I never thought that Nolvadex 's ability to reduce IGF-1 was very significant (and in some cases it isn't), but it can become an issue if you're running it longer (throughout your cycle). Yeah, I wouldn't do it. But I am indeed curious if one could use IGF-1 when running Nolvadex in order to counter this effect. The question here is: does Nolvadex reduce serum blood plasma concentrations of IGF-1, or does it reduce/suppress the body's ability to secrete it endogenously???? Hmmmmm.... something for me to investigate......

[warmouth]

At first I never thought that Nolvadex's ability to reduce IGF-1 was very significant (and in some cases it isn't), but it can become an issue if you're running it longer (throughout your cycle). Yeah, I wouldn't do it. But I am indeed curious if one could use IGF-1 when running Nolvadex in order to counter this effect. The question here is: does Nolvadex reduce serum blood plasma concentrations of IGF-1, or does it reduce/suppress the body's ability to secrete it endogenously???? Hmmmmm.... something for me to investigate......

No kidding... get to it. I've been very curious about supplementing with ifg 1 or ifg des for quite some time since its easier to get than gh.

[Atomini]

No kidding... get to it. I've been very curious about supplementing with ifg 1 or ifg des for quite some time since its easier to get than gh.

Don't know if you've been following my T3 thread in the lounge, but I have recently begun IGF-1 LR3 about 2 and a half weeks ago... and I am absolutely blown away. Seriously. I can't believe I was skeptical of it all these years until I took the plunge a couple weeks ago. I also can't believe I only threw it into the final 2 weeks of my cycle... I could've used this stuff at the beginning! My current cycle ends in under a week and I plan on continuing it into PCT in order to assist in retaining gains and staying lean. Check out the thread.

Don't want to hijack this thread though lol.

[warmouth]

Don't know if you've been following my T3 thread in the lounge, but I have recently begun IGF-1 LR3 about 2 and a half weeks ago... and I am absolutely blown away. Seriously. I can't believe I was skeptical of it all these years until I took the plunge a couple weeks ago. I also can't believe I only threw it into the final 2 weeks of my cycle... I could've used this stuff at the beginning! My current cycle ends in under a week and I plan on continuing it into PCT in order to assist in retaining gains and staying lean. Check out the thread.

Don't want to hijack this thread though lol.

I missed it! Ill check it out to not hijack...

[Turkish Juicer]

Worth a shot I guess!!! Either way, great initial post and great info!

What does your PCT consist of?

My PCT typically consists of both Nolvadex and Clomid, which are both available at every pharmacy in Turkey, and also happen to be quite affordable. Thus, having access to the legit/pharm grade versions of these compounds have never been an issue for me. Same goes for AIs and HCG .

Torem, on the other hand, is a prescription drug and happens to be very expensive unfortunately, which is why I haven't been able to experiment with it thus far. But I am extremely curious about how my metabolism would response to Torem & Clomid combo.

[Turkish Juicer]

Curious if any of you guys have used low doses (10 mg) as opposed to the usual (at least in most of the threads on PCT ) 20-40 mg often higher the first week of Tamox. In the test above 10mg was used and also in the studies done by Scally on a long term user with long term problems the same 10mg's was used with great results. The reason I ask this is that I see many users of Tamox and Clomid complaining of sides, perhaps with a reduction in dosage to 10mg's these sides would be much less of a problem but the effect on restoration would still be good?

Very good point, indeed.

Almost in every study conducted on Nolvadex regarding its effectiveness on HPTA recovery, 20mg was the preferred dosage, including the infamous clinical trial that showed us Nolva increases serum T levels by 150%. This therapeutic dosage is also proven to be the safe short-term dosage. Thus, I often happen to disagree with the prototype PCT as advised on this board regarding Nolvadex, which is 40/40/20/20. Here is a more detailed explanation as to why: First of all, we don't know whether doubling the therapeutic dose actually doubles the pace and/or overall quality of HPTA recovery, as suggesting 40mg seems to not have any basis regarding its supposed effectiveness. Second of all, doubling the therapeutic dose also brings up other issues such as potential increments in sides as well as cost-effectiveness of this compound.

... and then, there is the dosage recommendations of Clomid in steroid circles. Needles to say, Clomid dosed at 100mg brings about sides that are utterly ''unbearable'' for many people, including the nastiest side of all, permanent vision impairment, which is rare but statically still there. Lemonada8 provided a link in a much recent thread, which portraits the effectiveness of a low dose (25mg) Clomid on hypogonadal men, that administration of this dose had risen their total Test levels by %240 in a relatively short period of time. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830

I will be soon posting other studies in this thread that aim to show effectiveness of these SERMs at rather low doses.

[Turkish Juicer]

Daily dose 25 mg Clomid doubles men's T levels

A modest dose of the fertility drug Clomid can help men with low testosterone levels and low sex drive. Researchers at the Centro de Andrologia e Urologia in Porto Alegre, Brazil came to this conclusion after studying 125 hypogonadal men.

The participants in the Brazilian study had a testosterone level of 300-400 nanograms per decilitre. Their levels were within the limits of what doctors regard as normal – 200-1200 nanograms per decilitre – but they were on the low side. The men complained of lack of libido.

Progressive doctors have been known to prescribe testosterone products for these complaints. They are effective in the short term, but may have long-term side effects such as "skin irritation, gynecomastia , nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy and decline in sperm counts", according to the researchers.

Clomid – active ingredient clomiphene citrate – has none of these side effects. It is an anti-oestrogen that makes the brain think that there is too little steroid hormone circulating in the blood. As a result higher levels of steering hormones are produced, which stimulate testosterone production in the testes.

Clomid not only has fewer side effects than testosterone, but it's also cheaper. Researchers at Rush University in the US calculated in 2010 that the costs of Clomid treatment are less than a third of treatments using testosterone preparations. [J Sex Med. 2010 Jan; 7(1 Pt 1): 269-76.]

Because they wanted to see for themselves whether Clomid works in men, the Brazilians gave their test subjects a pill containing 25 mg clomiphene citrate every day for 3-6 months. The men's testosterone levels almost doubled, as you can see below.

One side effect of testosterone therapy that is cause for concern among cardiologists is a worsening in the cholesterol balance, which is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular problems. In this study there was no sign of this happening. In fact the Clomid actually improved the men's cholesterol levels a little.







The treatment also reduced the sexual problems that most of the men had. Among the over-seventies however Clomid led to improvements in about half of the subjects, but no change was noticed in the other half.

"Our data showed that a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate was effective in stimulating endogenous T production in a short follow-up", the Brazilians conclude. "No serious adverse events were recorded during the study period. This medication should be considered a therapeutic option for patients with symptomatic male testosterone deficiency."

Source: Int Braz J Urol. 2012 Jul;38(4):512-8.

ergo-log

[austinite]

Outstanding thread, TJ.

[Turkish Juicer]

Clomid quadrupled testosterone level of over-trained runner

A relatively modest dose of clomid – full name clomiphene citrate – quadrupled the amount of testosterone in the body of an endurance athlete, who had wrecked his hormone system by over training. Endocrinologists at the University of New Mexico described what happened in a case study published twelve years ago in Fertility & Sterility.

The combination of endurance sports and over training spells disaster for sex hormone production. One of the most important reasons for this is that over training causes the hypothalamus in the brain to stop producing the master hormone GnRH. GnRH stimulates the production of LH and FSH in the pituitary. These are two hormones that stimulate the Leydig cells to produce more testosterone.

Anti-oestrogens increase the production of GnRH. The more oestrogens there are in the body, the less active the hypothalamus becomes, and the lower the amount of oestrogens, the more active it becomes. An anti-oestrogen like clomid blocks the oestrogen receptor. If you take clomid, oestrogens do continue to circulate in your body, but the cells don't notice them.

The researchers decided to apply this knowledge to a 29-year-old man who showed signs of serious over training. The man was 1.70 metres tall and weighed only 52 kg, but as a result of exercise had developed stress fractures in his pelvis. He had been running between 80 and 140 km a week since he was fifteen. For most people running is good for their bones, but things turned out differently for this guy. He was suffering from osteoporosis.

He’d also had sexual problems since the age of twenty: he’d had increasing trouble getting an erection.

When the doctors tested his blood, they discovered that the man’s testes were producing too little testosterone. His total testosterone level was 4.5 nmol/L. A normal level for men is between 12.5 and 34.3 nmol/L. The man’s free testosterone level was 9.0 pmol/L. The normal level for this is 45.0 to 138.7 pmol/L. The man’s LH and FSH levels were just within the normal limits, but were on the low side.

The doctors gave the guy 50 mg clomid daily. The graphs below show that as a result his testosterone level rose after week 0 – the start of the clomid therapy – by a factor of four. If you calculate generously it’s a factor of five.

Attachment 133671

In week 24 the doctors stopped giving the guy clomid. When the complaints returned as a result, and had not disappeared after three months, the doctors put the guy on 25 mg clomid per day. The man apparently was not prepared to change his lifestyle in a way that would normalise his testosterone levels naturally.

Source:Fertil Steril. 1997 Apr;67(4):783-5.

ergo-log

[MR10X]

The reason for the higher doses in the begining is to get the blood level up quicker,front loading so to speak.Doctors do this with stuff like antibiotics to quicken the healing.I dont feel its necesary with what we are doing and it lowers the bad side effects, besides there should be a higher level of test in your system when you start PCT and all your trying to do is get your system back to a normal level. If your trying to boost your levels thats a different story,bloodwork would be necessary to see what your levels really are.I believe in using the minumim doses to accomplish what your trying to do,for PCT i use 50/10 clomid/nolvadex for PCT and it works for me with blood work to verify it. Rasing your test levels is a different story,like using it for a higher test level between cycles,but blood work to see what it actually is would be something to consider.

[Alinjr]

Great read.

[slimshady01]

I wouldn't do it simply because of Nolvadex 's effects on reducing serum IGF-1, even if it is at a low dose. I always say that if you don't have any need for an Estrogen blocker, don't run it (that includes both SERMs and AIs). And if you do need to run it, do so at the lowest possible effective dose.

After reading Swiftos post on why everyone needs to run a AI, I started running one. I used Aromasin at 12.5 on all cycles but he made my hair shed. Since then I switched to Adex at .25 EOD.. I remember another vet here saying not to run an AI unless absolutely necessary just as you.

So many opinions I never know which is right. I can say my sex drive is always good when running an AI, but if its harming me I don't want to do. Also im not very gyno prone.

[jimmyinkedup]

After reading Swiftos post on why everyone needs to run a AI, I started running one. I used Aromasin at 12.5 on all cycles but he made my hair shed. Since then I switched to Adex at .25 EOD.. I remember another vet here saying not to run an AI unless absolutely necessary just as you.

So many opinions I never know which is right. I can say my sex drive is always good when running an AI, but if its harming me I don't want to do. Also im not very gyno prone.

The dosage and duration we run these substances (ie ai) certainly reduces the likelyhood of adverse effects. Also while it may not yet be fully understood what the long term effects of intermittent ai use in males are, it is very well understood the adverse effects of elevated estrogen. That makes this a no brainer for me - ill use the ai. Its not just about gyno.

[jimmyinkedup]

At first I never thought that Nolvadex's ability to reduce IGF-1 was very significant (and in some cases it isn't), but it can become an issue if you're running it longer (throughout your cycle). Yeah, I wouldn't do it. But I am indeed curious if one could use IGF-1 when running Nolvadex in order to counter this effect. The question here is: does Nolvadex reduce serum blood plasma concentrations of IGF-1, or does it reduce/suppress the body's ability to secrete it endogenously???? Hmmmmm.... something for me to investigate......

Even more basic than that you may want to consider the impact the aas being run have on igf as well. The nolvas effects in many instances could be 100% insignificant...or not. Dunno. Slin or hgh i would suspect would in all likelihood more than offset this as well. Again more speculation.