Use Steroids & Need TRT - Fact

[Metalject]

After reading one of Bear’s responses in another thread, I thought this would be a good topic of discussion.

The prevailing idea is that if you’re under 25 years old and you use steroids you will end up shutting yourself down and need TRT for the rest of your life. Now I’m not advocating kids or very young men using steroids, it is true they risk damaging their HPTA. However, I also believe many (guys over 25) hold to a false sense of security when it comes to steroid use and their natural testosterone production.

The idea is simple; supplement with steroids moderately, short to moderate cycles, implement solid PCT plans and take adequate amounts of time off. Do this and you will more than likely protect yourself from the need for TRT…I disagree.

If you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you hold to the above idea, more than likely you’re still going to need TRT at some point in your life. How soon or when is impossible to predict but if you continually and repeatedly shut your testosterone production down year after year it’s going to more than likely happen. Now the next question is pretty simple; is the need for TRT really that big of a deal or something we should be upset or concerned about? I say no it’s not. Even if you’re not going to be a steroid user, more than likely as you reach and surpass 40yrs of age you will benefit greatly from TRT. Many will absolutely need it despite no prior steroid use and while others may be OK without it they would be far better off with it. Some may not have what’s traditionally considered low testosterone, but maintaining optimal testosterone levels rather than just above the reference range will make them far better off.

Will a steroid user need TRT before the guy who never used steroids? Sure, there’s a good chance but both will end up needing it or at least greatly benefiting from it at some point in their life. In my opinion, if you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you’re going to follow the safest ways of use possible, your best bet is to assume you will end up on a TRT plan at some point regardless. If this is an idea you can’t handle, you shouldn’t use steroids. However, if the idea of TRT really makes you that sick to your stomach understand steroid use or not at some point in your life you’ll greatly benefit from it and if you decide not to take it you’ll only shortchange your wellbeing.

OK, I’m sure plenty will disagree but in my opinion the above statement is simply reality.

[The Bear 79]

Excellent thread.

While I don't agree with or advocate people using under 25, nor do I agree with the parroted installation of fear pertaining to TRT.

As I said in another thread, "I don't see having the Test. level of a 15 - 20 year old kid for the rest of my life as a threat".

And I agree with Metalject, if TRT is something your fear & can't come to terms with, then you should not cycle.

I look forward to TRT.

[Lunk1]

If the issue specificly is about underage users (under 25) then it's not the HPTA that concernes me but the under developed endo system! Reality is..if done right, the younger person will most likely have an easier time of recovering their fully functioning HPTA then say a 40 y.o.!

Now if the issue is more about avoiding TRT when cycling...it's Russian Roulette! Some ppl never recover from one cycle and othrs contunue to recover just fine after years of cycling!

[warmouth]

I'm loving these threads metalject! I'm wondering if we could throw out a few ideas for topics in the future for you? Ive got several questions that would pertain to everyone, new or advanced users. I have a couple of notebooks full of notes I take daily from this site, but there is still some things that seem to always go unsaid or not asked. Thanks for the great reads!

[BBJT200]

Agreed. If you cant come to terms with the fact that you will probably need TRT at some point in your life, post steroid use, you should not use at all.
The pin is for life.

[fit2bOld]

I'm all for use by responsible adults 25 and over. Biggest problem is that most guys come here want to be spoon fed or have already begun doing crazy cycles with no research no AI and have no idea what PCT is.

As we all know AAS is not magic and results require hard work and proper nutrition and a solid base from years of hard workouts.

[bigsiv]

Agreed. If you cant come to terms with the fact that you will probably need TRT at some point in your life, post steroid use, you should not use at all.
The pin is for life.

While I'm not advocating anything I do think these statements of 'if you use steroids you will be on TRT.....' Are very very generalised. Just to shot the other side if the coin surely its person dependent?

Not everyone who uses/abuses steroids need to go on TRT correct?

Will each person be different from the next? I think yes.

I think it's all about risk but isn't most things in life a risk.

Whilst I think it's a good point that TRT isn't the worst thing in the world I have heard from many many members complain that they are in it. I think it's a responsibility of the vets and members to not underestimate a life of TRT because the newer members will think 'F**k it I'm doing roids the guys say a life of TRT will be good'

All I'm saying is with threads such as this the doors will come open to kids going on cycle permanently because they aren't bothered about the consequences. Just my opinion though for what it's worth guys

[Turkish Juicer]

Good thread, Metalject!

Keep' em coming...

[Metalject]

While I'm not advocating anything I do think these statements of 'if you use steroids you will be on TRT.....' Are very very generalised. Just to shot the other side if the coin surely its person dependent?

Not everyone who uses/abuses steroids need to go on TRT correct?

Will each person be different from the next? I think yes.

I think it's all about risk but isn't most things in life a risk.

Whilst I think it's a good point that TRT isn't the worst thing in the world I have heard from many many members complain that they are in it. I think it's a responsibility of the vets and members to not underestimate a life of TRT because the newer members will think 'F**k it I'm doing roids the guys say a life of TRT will be good'

All I'm saying is with threads such as this the doors will come open to kids going on cycle permanently because they aren't bothered about the consequences. Just my opinion though for what it's worth guys

Try looking at it like this....if most men who never use steroids will need TRT at some point in their life, common sense tells us even more steroid users will need it. Sure "person dependent" as you put it does play a role but regardless of that factor most fall in the need TRT category.

I also don't see the possible need for TRT as a risk. I don't even understand how it's viewed as a risk.

[Lunk1]

Try looking at it like this....if most men who never use steroids will need TRT at some point in their life, common sense tells us even more steroid users will need it. Sure "person dependent" as you put it does play a role but regardless of that factor most fall in the need TRT category.

I also don't see the possible need for TRT as a risk. I don't even understand how it's viewed as a risk.

I wouldn't call it a risk as much as I would a hassle that should be avoided until absolutely neccessary!

[bigsiv]

Try looking at it like this....if most men who never use steroids will need TRT at some point in their life, common sense tells us even more steroid users will need it. Sure "person dependent" as you put it does play a role but regardless of that factor most fall in the need TRT category.

I also don't see the possible need for TRT as a risk. I don't even understand how it's viewed as a risk.

I understand what your saying and as I said its a good point metalject but just to air on the side of caution both sides should be debated fully because I can see future threads including 'but metalject said TRT isn't bad so I'm gonna do a year cycle.....'

I'm not on TRT myself so whether its good or bad I couldn't comment

[Crooktele79]

Hormone therapy has always been accepted as part of post menopausal life for women, but TRT for men is just recently coming into its own as evidenced by all of the low T commercials you now see on TV. I believe the generalization that the majority of men will benefit from TRT at some point in their lives is true. What point that is will differ from person to person.

I look at it the same way I view my hypothyroidism. I'm on artificial thyroid hormone for the rest of my life. I'm a few years away from AAS use but I have decided it is something I want to do, and I will except the fact that I most likely will be pinning for the rest of my life.

[Metalject]

I wouldn't call it a risk as much as I would a hassle that should be avoided until absolutely neccessary!

I don't see it as a hassle. I've been on TRT for 3yrs now, it takes a grand total of about 60 seconds of my time per week. So every 7 days I have to commit one minute of my time to administering testosterone. That's hardly a hassle. And I understand you have to go to the doctor, but we're talking about a couple of short visits at most.

Another thought/opinion of mine..."absolutely necessary"...how do we define absolutely necessary? Are we going by the old worn out standard below 300-350ng/dl? When we're below that is that when it becomes absolutely necessary? What if our total test is sitting at 500 but our free is at 15? What if we don't fall into the traditional low level category (which is a complete BS way to look at things) but if we increased our levels to the 700-1,000ng/dl range (which is the optimal range for most men, 700-1,100 Total and 20-30 Free) if we could do this and benefit why wouldn't we? Necessary is a very relative term.

[Lunk1]

I don't see it as a hassle. I've been on TRT for 3yrs now, it takes a grand total of about 60 seconds of my time per week. So every 7 days I have to commit one minute of my time to administering testosterone. That's hardly a hassle. And I understand you have to go to the doctor, but we're talking about a couple of short visits at most.

Another thought/opinion of mine..."absolutely necessary"...how do we define absolutely necessary? Are we going by the old worn out standard below 300-350ng/dl? When we're below that is that when it becomes absolutely necessary? What if our total test is sitting at 500 but our free is at 15? What if we don't fall into the traditional low level category (which is a complete BS way to look at things) but if we increased our levels to the 700-1,000ng/dl range (which is the optimal range for most men, 700-1,100 Total and 20-30 Free) if we could do this and benefit why wouldn't we? Necessary is a very relative term.

Neccessary as in...no reason for a 24 year old kid with normal functioning HPTA and high test levels to blast and cruise to llok better on the beach!

[fit2bOld]

Neccessary as in...no reason for a 24 year old kid with normal functioning HPTA and high test levels to blast and cruise to llok better on the beach!

This is the line we walk. Everyone is going to draw it somewhere. I agree with Lunk there is no need for a 24 year old to be blasting and cruising unless he has an iFBB pro card. I'm sure other may beg to
differ.

[Metalject]

Neccessary as in...no reason for a 24 year old kid with normal functioning HPTA and high test levels to blast and cruise to llok better on the beach!

That's not what I was talking about.

[Metalject]

This is the line we walk. Everyone is going to draw it somewhere. I agree with Lunk there is no need for a 24 year old to be blasting and cruising unless he has an iFBB pro card. I'm sure other may beg to
differ.

That may be true but how do you think that IFBB pro got there? It wasn't by following standard message board cycling rules.

[MR10X]

Im 66 and done AAS off and on for 32 years,Last time my test was checked it was 505 a year ago.I use shorter cycles 8 to 10 weeks didnt use PCT untill a couple years ago,Im not suggesting not to do it just wasnt done when i started. Everyone is different and it also depends on how long you stay on and how much you use.......

[bigsiv]

That may be true but how do you think that IFBB pro got there? It wasn't by following standard message board cycling rules.

Although your posts are good ones i think this is very much debatable and potentially dangerous (to the wrong person). if anyone reads this who hasn't the knowledge and experience of AAS use they might use this as a reason for serious abuse and a lazy attitude to bodybuilding in general.

Standard message board cycling rules/advice IMO is the way to go for the general public. Just because that IFBB pro done this or that to get where he is doesn't mean everybody should because they shouldn't.

Again I'm just debating not fighting here

[Metalject]

Although your posts are good ones i think this is very much debatable and potentially dangerous (to the wrong person). if anyone reads this who hasn't the knowledge and experience of AAS use they might use this as a reason for serious abuse and a lazy attitude to bodybuilding in general.

Standard message board cycling rules/advice IMO is the way to go for the general public. Just because that IFBB pro done this or that to get where he is doesn't mean everybody should because they shouldn't.

Again I'm just debating not fighting here

Black and white man, we can all acknowledge what's the safest way to approach things or even the most responsible way....by the way, also keep in mind what you call responsible many would call insanely nuts...but the point is while we can acknowledge the safest way that doesn't mean we can't openly acknowledge that's not how XYZ pro bodybuilder did it. Of course he didn't...no way on this earth he ran cycles of 500mg of test-e for 12wks, took off 12wks and repeated that 5-6 times...I mean this should be obvious. Most pro's started using a lot of gear, massive amounts in their 20's, many in their early 20's. Stating the obvious is not encouraging others to do the same, it's simply stating the obvious. The bigger crime is telling young guys they can look just like their favorite professional bodybuilder by working hard, making sure they take all their supplements and eating clean. There aren't too many lies bigger than that one right there but it's purported every day and people continually buy into it. From there, as time goes by, they learn the truth and give up or they learn the truth and take the next step.

Again, this is simply acknowledging the truth. We can even take it a step further if we want to. Yes, you can build a good physique following standard message board cycling rules/advice, but pro level? Not a chance and most anyone who is honest and has some time in the saddle knows that. That doesn't mean they're saying "hey everybody, use 18g of gear a week and inject 38ius a day of HGH right into your butt hole....it's simply acknowledging the truth. I think that's the one thing that's always irritated me about message boards, being safe and as responsible is a good thing but it doesn't mean we ignore the truth or reality of other things.

[kelkel]

Everyone will be on TRT eventually, assuming they care about their health and optimizing testosterone levels through middle age and beyond. That said it is not easy for everyone. Some have doctors who understand hormones and others who just don't. That is where the struggle lies for the majority of TRT-ers at the present time.

When TRT becomes a standard part of medical training protocols or when it becomes more main-stream, it will be much easier for the general public. Realize that the majority of TRT-ers are not "us" and have a very minimal knowledge regarding proper treatment and protocols. Same goes for far too many doctors as well...

[bigsiv]

Black and white man, we can all acknowledge what's the safest way to approach things or even the most responsible way....by the way, also keep in mind what you call responsible many would call insanely nuts...but the point is while we can acknowledge the safest way that doesn't mean we can't openly acknowledge that's not how XYZ pro bodybuilder did it. Of course he didn't...no way on this earth he ran cycles of 500mg of test-e for 12wks, took off 12wks and repeated that 5-6 times...I mean this should be obvious. Most pro's started using a lot of gear, massive amounts in their 20's, many in their early 20's. Stating the obvious is not encouraging others to do the same, it's simply stating the obvious. The bigger crime is telling young guys they can look just like their favorite professional bodybuilder by working hard, making sure they take all their supplements and eating clean. There aren't too many lies bigger than that one right there but it's purported every day and people continually buy into it. From there, as time goes by, they learn the truth and give up or they learn the truth and take the next step.

Again, this is simply acknowledging the truth. We can even take it a step further if we want to. Yes, you can build a good physique following standard message board cycling rules/advice, but pro level? Not a chance and most anyone who is honest and has some time in the saddle knows that. That doesn't mean they're saying "hey everybody, use 18g of gear a week and inject 38ius a day of HGH right into your butt hole....it's simply acknowledging the truth. I think that's the one thing that's always irritated me about message boards, being safe and as responsible is a good thing but it doesn't mean we ignore the truth or reality of other things.

Very good point metalject and one I don't disagree with. I'm just trying to get the other side of the coin put in. Great thread!

[Metalject]

Everyone will be on TRT eventually, assuming they care about their health and optimizing testosterone levels through middle age and beyond. That said it is not easy for everyone. Some have doctors who understand hormones and others who just don't. That is where the struggle lies for the majority of TRT-ers at the present time.

When TRT becomes a standard part of medical training protocols or when it becomes more main-stream, it will be much easier for the general public. Realize that the majority of TRT-ers are not "us" and have a very minimal knowledge regarding proper treatment and protocols. Same goes for far too many doctors as well...

Agree with everything you said

[MickeyKnox]

After reading one of Bear’s responses in another thread, I thought this would be a good topic of discussion.

The prevailing idea is that if you’re under 25 years old and you use steroids you will end up shutting yourself down and need TRT for the rest of your life. Now I’m not advocating kids or very young men using steroids, it is true they risk damaging their HPTA. However, I also believe many (guys over 25) hold to a false sense of security when it comes to steroid use and their natural testosterone production. What about their endocrine system?

The idea is simple; supplement with steroids moderately, short to moderate cycles, implement solid PCT plans and take adequate amounts of time off. Do this and you will more than likely protect yourself from the need for TRT…I disagree. As apposed to supplementing ridiculous amounts of AAS, long cycles, no PCT, and little time off? I respectfully disagree with you.

If you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you hold to the above idea, more than likely you’re still going to need TRT at some point in your life. This is correct, but for entirely different reasons than you're attempting to outline. Most men at some point in their lives WILL suffer from Andropause. This is a medical fact. Youire suggesting that the bulk of TRT patients are previous AAS users. This NOT true at all. So How soon or when is impossible to predict but if you continually and repeatedly shut your testosterone production down year after year it’s going to more than likely happen. <---- I agree with this statement. Now the next question is pretty simple; is the need for TRT really that big of a deal or something we should be upset or concerned about? I say no it’s not. Even if you’re not going to be a steroid user, more than likely as you reach and surpass 40yrs of age you will benefit greatly from TRT. Many will absolutely need it despite no prior steroid use and while others may be OK without it they would be far better off with it. Some may not have what’s traditionally considered low testosterone, but maintaining optimal testosterone levels rather than just above the reference range will make them far better off. <---- Once again, this is Andropause - certainty way more likley than AAS users. There are currently over 5 million men suffering from Adropause.

Will a steroid user need TRT before the guy who never used steroids? Sure, there’s a good chance but both will end up needing it or at least greatly benefiting from it at some point in their life. In my opinion, if you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you’re going to follow the safest ways of use possible, your best bet is to assume you will end up on a TRT plan at some point regardless. <--- This is a pile of bullcrap. Im sorry but this is nonsense. You obviously do NOT understand Adropause and its effects on men. I do. And to suggest these blanket statements is frightening. What you have done, and likely unintentionally, is mix Adropause with AAS users. At best, you will hit the nail on the head once if you combine men who are over 40 who use AAS. I highly recommended you research Adropause and the associated symptoms along with the facts and medical studies that are widely available before you continue preaching this nonsense. If this is an idea you can’t handle, you shouldn’t use steroids. However, if the idea of TRT really makes you that sick to your stomach understand steroid use or not at some point in your life you’ll greatly benefit from it and if you decide not to take it you’ll only shortchange your wellbeing.

OK, I’m sure plenty will disagree but in my opinion the above statement is simply reality.

It's not just about protecting from TRT, its also about a young developing endocrine system that is fragile at best, particularly around 18 years of age. I agree with Lunk's opinions here. And BigSiv make a good point. "not everyone who uses AAS will end up on TRT". This is true. And quite frankly who would consciously choose TRT over producing testosterone on their own?

And its not about the short time it takes to administer TRT, it about having to use exogenous test and perhaps other drugs (AI's) unnecessarily.

And your defense of IFBB users is weak. Most members on this site or elsewhere are NOT IFBB hopefuls. And i have not heard you once mention hypogonadism? Does this play any type of role in TRT?

IMHO, this entire argument is weak and potentially harmful to youngster who may read into this thread and assume its ok to use AAS at 18, or 19 or so. Its not.

These are my thoughts and opinions Metalject. They are based on experience and an enormous amount of research. I have been studying Andropause for awhile now and feel i have a solid grasp on this subject. No, im no expert. But one doesn't need to be to fully understand the effects and causes.

Not trying to argue. I enjoy reading and agree with most of your thoughts and ideas. But not this one.

Let the debate continue..

[MickeyKnox]

Although your posts are good ones i think this is very much debatable and potentially dangerous (to the wrong person). if anyone reads this who hasn't the knowledge and experience of AAS use they might use this as a reason for serious abuse and a lazy attitude to bodybuilding in general.

Standard message board cycling rules/advice IMO is the way to go for the general public. Just because that IFBB pro done this or that to get where he is doesn't mean everybody should because they shouldn't.

Again I'm just debating not fighting here

Once again BigSiv make a solid point, IMHO. These need to be looked at and not swept under the rug to make a point MJ.

[Metalject]

MickeyKnox

I think some are misunderstanding what I’m saying, at least to a degree. I’ll try to layout my thoughts one by one so there’s no confusion, even then I know some will disagree but hopefully this’ll make things a little clearer.

*Let’s put steroid use aside, pretend steroids do not exist. In this case, most men will still benefit from TRT at some point in their life. In some cases, they will absolutely need it, in others, while they could get by without it they would still benefit from it greatly.

*Considering the above point, now reintroduce steroids into the equation. Take a guy who cycles on and off for several years. Your standard, basic gym rat steroid user, not over the top, nothing anyone would consider outrageous. Now if most of the men mentioned above are going to need or benefit from TRT at some point in their life how much more is this going to apply to former steroid users? In most cases a lot. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, there are exceptions to most rules, but in general most steroid users will need or benefit from TRT.

*Andropause, yes I know what Andropause is. I make my living in TRT and steroid related things. Also, just a note of interest, in the U.S. alone considering both types of hypogonadism and Andropause there are more than 20 million men who suffer…that’s the estimate, and based on average testosterone levels in the U.S. for the last 20 years I suspect the number may be larger than that.

*No, I’m not suggesting the bulk of TRT patients are former AAS users…far from it. The bulk of TRT patients are actually shocked when they learn TRT therapy is the use of AAS and it freaks some of them out. Have you ever noticed how when the "LOWT" commercials started a few years back they couldn't even mention the word "Testosterone"? It's such a taboo word and even in the current advertisements they are very careful about what they say...it's almost a joke.

*By following standard message board advice, which assumes you won’t need TRT if later in life if you do so, if most men end up needing TRT later in their life despite no AAS use why would the former steroid user be any exception? And yes, many men NEED TRT, far more than actually end up getting on a program and even more than that, while they may not technically need it they would benefit from it. There’s nothing healthy about test levels that are above the low reference range but below the optimal range. This is something many physicians will not admit, especially those who have been practicing for 20+ years and are stuck in the old way of thinking, but slowly but surely some are starting to come around.

*Of course most aren’t an IFBB hopeful, that wasn’t my point. That example got into a separate argument about recognizing reality and the truth of what’s going on. All threads take a life of their own, they start out one way and other topics come up, that’s just how conversations in real life work too. Anyway, in my opinion feeding young guys a bunch of garbage and half truths, that’s the bigger crime and nothing pissed me off more when I was around that age…nothing! Telling the truth is not promoting anything, it’s simply telling the truth.

[MickeyKnox]

MickeyKnox

I think some are misunderstanding what I’m saying, at least to a degree. I’ll try to layout my thoughts one by one so there’s no confusion, even then I know some will disagree but hopefully this’ll make things a little clearer.

*Let’s put steroid use aside, pretend steroids do not exist. In this case, most men will still benefit from TRT at some point in their life. In some cases, they will absolutely need it, in others, while they could get by without it they would still benefit from it greatly. 100% agree with you!

*Considering the above point, now reintroduce steroids into the equation. Take a guy who cycles on and off for several years. Your standard, basic gym rat steroid user, not over the top, nothing anyone would consider outrageous. Now if most of the men mentioned above are going to need or benefit from TRT at some point in their life how much more is this going to apply to former steroid users? In most cases a lot. This is simply unfounded. Please provide one single link that supports your statement. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, there are exceptions to most rules, but in general most steroid users will need or benefit from TRT. No. Most MEN over 40 will benefit. This is what you are, i assume, unintentionally confused.

*Andropause, yes I know what Andropause is. I make my living in TRT and steroid related things. Also, just a note of interest, in the U.S. alone considering both types of hypogonadism and Andropause there are more than 20 million men who suffer…that’s the estimate, and based on average testosterone levels in the U.S. for the last 20 years I suspect the number may be larger than that. If that's the case, then what the heck are you talking about!?? You should know better than to lump AAS users who may be suffering from Andropause, particularly young men, into the same group.

*No, I’m not suggesting the bulk of TRT patients are former AAS users…far from it. The bulk of TRT patients are actually shocked when they learn TRT therapy is the use of AAS and it freaks some of them out. Have you ever noticed how when the "LOWT" commercials started a few years back they couldn't even mention the word "Testosterone"? It's such a taboo word and even in the current advertisements they are very careful about what they say...it's almost a joke. Yes im fully aware. Not to be rude but, there's no real point here.

*By following standard message board advice, which assumes you won’t need TRT if later in life if you do so, if most men end up needing TRT later in their life despite no AAS use why would the former steroid user be any exception? He's not. Its that simple. And yes, many men NEED TRT, far more than actually end up getting on a program and even more than that, while they may not technically need it they would benefit from it. There’s nothing healthy about test levels that are above the low reference range but below the optimal range. This is something many physicians will not admit, especially those who have been practicing for 20+ years and are stuck in the old way of thinking, but slowly but surely some are starting to come around. <--- Agree 100%!

*Of course most aren’t an IFBB hopeful, that wasn’t my point. That example got into a separate argument about recognizing reality and the truth of what’s going on. All threads take a life of their own, they start out one way and other topics come up, that’s just how conversations in real life work too. Anyway, in my opinion feeding young guys a bunch of garbage and half truths, that’s the bigger crime and nothing pissed me off more when I was around that age…nothing! Telling the truth is not promoting anything, it’s simply telling the truth. Right. And the truth is this thread title should be changed immediately.

Your opinions here are NOT fact. The only real fact i can see is perhaps the 20 million figure you offered. One of the reasons i am so uncomfortable about this thread title is that is suggests whats contained in your original post is fact; it isn't - not by a long shot.

A good debate is healthy. But the bulk of the information you have provided is conjecture and assumptions at best. This worries me that young people are going to stubble across this thread entitled, "Use Steroids and Need TRT -Fact" which has little to no facts, and quite frankly it's mostly made up of your hypothesis.

Im sorry to disagree, but the facts simply dont support your original post.

Respect.

[Metalject]

Your opinions here are NOT fact. The only real fact i can see is perhaps the 20 million figure you offered. One of the reasons i am so uncomfortable about this thread title is that is suggests whats contained in your original post is fact; it isn't - not by a long shot.

A good debate is healthy. But the bulk of the information you have provided is conjecture and assumptions at best. This worries me that young people are going to stubble across this thread entitled, "Use Steroids and Need TRT -Fact" which has little to no facts, and quite frankly it's mostly made up of your hypothesis.

Im sorry to disagree, but the facts simply dont support your original post.

Respect.

For now I'm going to the gym for some back and cardio but I shall return with plenty of awesomeness....that's a promise! I know you're excited LOL!

[MickeyKnox]

For now I'm going to the gym for some back and cardio but I shall return with plenty of awesomeness....that's a promise! I know you're excited LOL!

Enjoy your workout..i can barely stand the wait.

[BBJT200]

Everyone will be on TRT eventually, assuming they care about their health and optimizing testosterone levels through middle age and beyond. That said it is not easy for everyone. Some have doctors who understand hormones and others who just don't. That is where the struggle lies for the majority of TRT-ers at the present time.

When TRT becomes a standard part of medical training protocols or when it becomes more main-stream, it will be much easier for the general public. Realize that the majority of TRT-ers are not "us" and have a very minimal knowledge regarding proper treatment and protocols. Same goes for far too many doctors as well...

This is exactly why I am intending to go to medical school and specialize in HRT/TRT. I am excited to be able to help people and actually make a difference in their lives.
So many doctors out there have no clue as to how to go about treating hormonal issues, and stab blindly in the dark. And a lot of them think TRT is just steroid abuse.... which is completely wrong.

[MickeyKnox]

Everyone will be on TRT eventually, assuming they care about their health and optimizing testosterone levels through middle age and beyond. That said it is not easy for everyone. Some have doctors who understand hormones and others who just don't. That is where the struggle lies for the majority of TRT-ers at the present time.

When TRT becomes a standard part of medical training protocols or when it becomes more main-stream, it will be much easier for the general public. Realize that the majority of TRT-ers are not "us" and have a very minimal knowledge regarding proper treatment and protocols. Same goes for far too many doctors as well...

Dont know how i missed this, but Kel is bang on as usual.

[calstate23]

After reading one of Bear’s responses in another thread, I thought this would be a good topic of discussion.

The prevailing idea is that if you’re under 25 years old and you use steroids you will end up shutting yourself down and need TRT for the rest of your life. Now I’m not advocating kids or very young men using steroids, it is true they risk damaging their HPTA. However, I also believe many (guys over 25) hold to a false sense of security when it comes to steroid use and their natural testosterone production.

The idea is simple; supplement with steroids moderately, short to moderate cycles, implement solid PCT plans and take adequate amounts of time off. Do this and you will more than likely protect yourself from the need for TRT…I disagree.

If you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you hold to the above idea, more than likely you’re still going to need TRT at some point in your life. How soon or when is impossible to predict but if you continually and repeatedly shut your testosterone production down year after year it’s going to more than likely happen. Now the next question is pretty simple; is the need for TRT really that big of a deal or something we should be upset or concerned about? I say no it’s not. Even if you’re not going to be a steroid user, more than likely as you reach and surpass 40yrs of age you will benefit greatly from TRT. Many will absolutely need it despite no prior steroid use and while others may be OK without it they would be far better off with it. Some may not have what’s traditionally considered low testosterone, but maintaining optimal testosterone levels rather than just above the reference range will make them far better off.

Will a steroid user need TRT before the guy who never used steroids? Sure, there’s a good chance but both will end up needing it or at least greatly benefiting from it at some point in their life. In my opinion, if you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you’re going to follow the safest ways of use possible, your best bet is to assume you will end up on a TRT plan at some point regardless. If this is an idea you can’t handle, you shouldn’t use steroids. However, if the idea of TRT really makes you that sick to your stomach understand steroid use or not at some point in your life you’ll greatly benefit from it and if you decide not to take it you’ll only shortchange your wellbeing.

OK, I’m sure plenty will disagree but in my opinion the above statement is simply reality.

True, but I think it's more then JUST TRT...Most of the younger guys haven't even fully developed themselves naturally and there is a lot more to the endocrine system...

For instance the brain is apart of that system and your brain is not fully developed until you are around 25 as well...Which means people who may be genetically prone to depression and such would be more susceptible for that to happen as well...

[Metalject]

Your opinions here are NOT fact. The only real fact i can see is perhaps the 20 million figure you offered. One of the reasons i am so uncomfortable about this thread title is that is suggests whats contained in your original post is fact; it isn't - not by a long shot.

A good debate is healthy. But the bulk of the information you have provided is conjecture and assumptions at best. This worries me that young people are going to stubble across this thread entitled, "Use Steroids and Need TRT -Fact" which has little to no facts, and quite frankly it's mostly made up of your hypothesis.

Im sorry to disagree, but the facts simply dont support your original post.

Respect.

The overall point of the thread was to discuss the misplaced security many feel. On most message boards you'll find an overwhelming number of post where guys say explain that they do things a certain way to ensure they don't end up on TRT later. However, if we consider a large number of men who never use steroids will one day greatly benefit from TRT why would we assume someone who has repeatedly shut down his natural production for years on end would be any different? I think the best approach to using steroids is to assume TRT will be the end result. Granted, maybe it won't be but I do believe many will be in for a surprise.

The title of this thread...I included the word "Fact" for one simple reason...yes, I do believe much of what has been stated in this thread is fact, some of it is opinion but the reason for including the word "Fact" was for no other reason than to draw attention to the thread...make a title that draws people in or on the other side annoys people and you'll create a discussion...pretty simple, and yeah, maybe a slightly assholish way to approach things, lol!

Important fact...yes, FACT...this thread has absolutely nothing to do with young guys using or encouraging young guys to use steroids. I simply used the response often given to young guys as a jumping off point and nothing more.

[MickeyKnox]

The overall point of the thread was to discuss the misplaced security many feel. On most message boards you'll find an overwhelming number of post where guys say explain that they do things a certain way to ensure they don't end up on TRT later. However, if we consider a large number of men who never use steroids will one day greatly benefit from TRT why would we assume someone who has repeatedly shut down his natural production for years on end would be any different? I think the best approach to using steroids is to assume TRT will be the end result. Granted, maybe it won't be but I do believe many will be in for a surprise.

The title of this thread...I included the word "Fact" for one simple reason...yes, I do believe much of what has been stated in this thread is fact, some of it is opinion but the reason for including the word "Fact" was for no other reason than to draw attention to the thread...make a title that draws people in or on the other side annoys people and you'll create a discussion...pretty simple, and yeah, maybe a slightly assholish way to approach things, lol!

Important fact...yes, FACT...this thread has absolutely nothing to do with young guys using or encouraging young guys to use steroids. I simply used the response often given to young guys as a jumping off point and nothing more.

No, it is YOU that does not understand or at least refuses to see any light shed on your hypotheses. This is actually aggravating to me now. You simple are not absorbing the difference between fact and opinion.

I dont think you really understand what it is im trying to explain to you. What you are doing in this thread is attempting to put together several groups of individuals into the same blender, turn it on, and then suggest the blended matter is fact. It isn't, for the final time.

To suggest that a AAS user who shuts down his HPTA a number of times in his lifetime is going to require TRT is a fact, is not telling the entire story. You continue to leave out one VERY important variable. And that is, by the time this user has completed what you're suggesting, he's a prime candidate for TRT! IE, hes in his 40's+! But you want to include men in their 40's, men who are hypogonadal (primary, secondary), and veteran AAS users. None of which are typically young men! This is my point! Young men reading this thread entitled "Fact" which clearly is NOT fact thinking TRT is ok and its equally fine to do AAS. But you're attempting to make it fact.

And to suggest further that you used the word "Fact" to simply draw attention is the most irresponsible thing ive heard form you so far. Smarten up Metalject. You're a lot more intelligent than that, and you certainly dont need to fabricate lies and be an "azzhole" (your word not mine) to get attention. Use your brain and supportive data to get attention and convince people, not buzz words that promote b.s.

Look, im not about to brow beat you anymore. I think ive made my point clear and there's no need for me to continue.

I hope you're able to see what im attempting to convey here. Perhaps later on you'll have an, "ahhh i see" moment. Until then, im out brother.

Respect.

[bigsiv]

As usual Mickey spot on! And a great read guys!

[Metalject]

No, it is YOU that does not understand or at least refuses to see any light shed on your hypotheses. This is actually aggravating to me now. You simple are not absorbing the difference between fact and opinion.

I dont think you really understand what it is im trying to explain to you. What you are doing in this thread is attempting to put together several groups of individuals into the same blender, turn it on, and then suggest the blended matter is fact. It isn't, for the final time.

To suggest that a AAS user who shuts down his HPTA a number of times in his lifetime is going to require TRT is a fact, is not telling the entire story. You continue to leave out one VERY important variable. And that is, by the time this user has completed what you're suggesting, he's a prime candidate for TRT! IE, hes in his 40's+! But you want to include men in their 40's, men who are hypogonadal (primary, secondary), and veteran AAS users. None of which are typically young men! This is my point! Young men reading this thread entitled "Fact" which clearly is NOT fact thinking TRT is ok and its equally fine to do AAS. But you're attempting to make it fact.

And to suggest further that you used the word "Fact" to simply draw attention is the most irresponsible thing ive heard form you so far. Smarten up Metalject. You're a lot more intelligent than that, and you certainly dont need to fabricate lies and be an "azzhole" (your word not mine) to get attention. Use your brain and supportive data to get attention and convince people, not buzz words that promote b.s.

Look, im not about to brow beat you anymore. I think ive made my point clear and there's no need for me to continue.

I hope you're able to see what im attempting to convey here. Perhaps later on you'll have an, "ahhh i see" moment. Until then, im out brother.

Respect.

I think it's you who doesn't understand what I'm saying. I mean to begin you're attempting to tell me what I'm trying to say or what I'm implying, which if you stop and think about I'm sure you'd agree is ridiculous. Anyway, in the end it's not big deal. I would encourage you to try not to think so linearly and let go of the young guy stuff you keep arguing about. However, if not, again it's not that big of a deal....in the end this is just steroids and more importantly this is just a message board where a bunch of people talk about them....not that important.

[t-dogg]

Great read.

[bigsiv]

I think it's you who doesn't understand what I'm saying. I mean to begin you're attempting to tell me what I'm trying to say or what I'm implying, which if you stop and think about I'm sure you'd agree is ridiculous. Anyway, in the end it's not big deal. I would encourage you to try not to think so linearly and let go of the young guy stuff you keep arguing about. However, if not, again it's not that big of a deal....in the end this is just steroids and more importantly this is just a message board where a bunch of people talk about them....not that important.

Again to air on the other side IMO it is IMPORTANT these message boards are read by a lot of impressionable people young and mature and all they need is someone telling them what they want to hear so they have the 'permission' to mess about with hormones when they are not ready. Lets not forget Anabolics can be dangerous in the wrong hands if abused both physically and mentally.

[MR10X]

After reading one of Bear’s responses in another thread, I thought this would be a good topic of discussion.

The prevailing idea is that if you’re under 25 years old and you use steroids you will end up shutting yourself down and need TRT for the rest of your life. Now I’m not advocating kids or very young men using steroids, it is true they risk damaging their HPTA. However, I also believe many (guys over 25) hold to a false sense of security when it comes to steroid use and their natural testosterone production.

The idea is simple; supplement with steroids moderately, short to moderate cycles, implement solid PCT plans and take adequate amounts of time off. Do this and you will more than likely protect yourself from the need for TRT…I disagree.

If you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you hold to the above idea, more than likely you’re still going to need TRT at some point in your life. How soon or when is impossible to predict but if you continually and repeatedly shut your testosterone production down year after year it’s going to more than likely happen. Now the next question is pretty simple; is the need for TRT really that big of a deal or something we should be upset or concerned about? I say no it’s not. Even if you’re not going to be a steroid user, more than likely as you reach and surpass 40yrs of age you will benefit greatly from TRT. Many will absolutely need it despite no prior steroid use and while others may be OK without it they would be far better off with it. Some may not have what’s traditionally considered low testosterone, but maintaining optimal testosterone levels rather than just above the reference range will make them far better off.

Will a steroid user need TRT before the guy who never used steroids? Sure, there’s a good chance but both will end up needing it or at least greatly benefiting from it at some point in their life. In my opinion, if you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you’re going to follow the safest ways of use possible, your best bet is to assume you will end up on a TRT plan at some point regardless. If this is an idea you can’t handle, you shouldn’t use steroids. However, if the idea of TRT really makes you that sick to your stomach understand steroid use or not at some point in your life you’ll greatly benefit from it and if you decide not to take it you’ll only shortchange your wellbeing.

OK, I’m sure plenty will disagree but in my opinion the above statement is simply reality.

I started using AAS in the early 80's,used them for 4 or 5 years 2 or 3 cycles a year at age 34. Back then PCT wasnt done for lack of knowledge about it. I used high doses low doses,Deca,finaject,stuff that shuts you dont "hard" as they say. Kept my cycles shorter than what some guys use now 8 to 10 weeks is what i did.Is my Hpta system damaged NO,my last bloodwork showed my test levels in the normal range 502. Sure older guys might need TRT because their levels are too low,low test levels are not healthy for the body.I also still train,which may or may not keep my test levels up. In my case your assumption everyone OR most guys will need TRT is wrong.If you use really high doses and stay on them for a long periods of time will you need TRT...probably. Will you benifit from TRT later in life whether you uses AAS or not..probably This statement is totally wrong.....It didnt apply to me and i didnt even use the safest way possible (years of use and no PCT) It doesnt get any more unsafe than that..

To quote you:

"In my opinion, if you’re going to be a steroid user, even if you’re going to follow the safest ways of use possible, your best bet is to assume you will end up on a TRT plan at some point regardless. If this is an idea you can’t handle, you shouldn’t use steroids"

heres a link to an interview with Dorian Yates,he states he used steroids for 7 years while he was a pro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqR-...utu.be&t=5m10s

[Metalject]

Again to air on the other side IMO it is IMPORTANT these message boards are read by a lot of impressionable people young and mature and all they need is someone telling them what they want to hear so they have the 'permission' to mess about with hormones when they are not ready. Lets not forget Anabolics can be dangerous in the wrong hands if abused both physically and mentally.

If the topic of young guys using steroids was viewed as a main point of this thread then the point of this thread was lost. I did mention a common argument that revolves around that as an example but it was hardly the point of the thread, it was merely an example. But maybe that was a poor choice in example on my part as several people seem to be stuck on that aspect rather than the larger one. However, when it comes to that topic and what you just stated above, I'm a firm believer in stating things as is, as black and white as possible rather than scare tactics or half truths simply to fulfill a desire.