Should I still run adex at .25 mg eod on a TRT dosage of test?

[lifeofdefiance]

During my next cycle I'll be running moderately high tren/low test (350 tren ace/ 175 test prop). I was wondering if .25 eod adex would still be good to include as a preventative measure or if it could possibly be overkill and unneccessary with such a low test dosage?

[fit2bOld]

Absolutely need the AI for this cycle just because the test is lower mean nothing. If you were only running test at 150 mg a week some may need an AI even at that dose.

You will need the AI to control estrogen with the Tren even more so than the test due to the aromatic action properties of 19 nors.

[fit2bOld]

Absolutely need the AI for this cycle just because the test is lower mean nothing. If you were only running test at 150 mg a week some may need an AI even at that dose.

You will need the AI to control estrogen with the Tren even more so than the test due to the aromatic action properties of 19 nors.

[Gaspaco]

^^^ agree

Running AI will help with prolactin too.

[Lunk1]

I disagree^^^^ when you start talking about test doses under 200mg EW there is a great possibility that there will not be enough excess test to convert to estrogen...thus causing low or crashed E2 levels!

Since you are using Tren it WOULD be important to USE caber or Prami to avoid prolactin! You could keep the AI on hand and monitor E2 levels! If you feel symptoms related to high E2 than a small dose may be needed!

[fit2bOld]

I personally need an AI on doses under 200 mg although Lunk may disagree I believe to be an individual issue and blood work would be the only way to know for sure.

[Lunk1]

I personally need an AI on doses under 200 mg although Lunk may disagree I believe to be an individual issue and blood work would be the only way to know for sure.

You are right..it would require one either use bloodwork or know how they react to E2 levels! Do you use a lower dose than when on full blast I'm assuming???

[kelkel]

Op, I'd bet you will need a low dose AI with that amount of test. Most seem to unless you know your body really well when it comes to aromitization. Most (not all) TRT-ers still need an AI. You may consider reducing the amount of test even lower if your looking to avoid an AI, but even then only BW is your real guide. Gyno/nip sensitivity is an indicator but should not be your only gauge for high E2.

Tren does not aromatize, but as stated above prolactin can become an issue if E2 gets out of hand. So like Lunk said, Caber is a good thing to have on hand or to just run. It's not going to hurt you at .25 or .5 twice per week...

[warmouth]

^^^ agree

Running AI will help with prolactin too.

It wont at those doses. Prolactin is thought to be controlled by keeping E2 controlled. An AI does nothing for prolactin issues. Caber or prami should indeed be ran even with low test. 175mgs is borderline for me. I run test at 125mgs and include adex 2x weekly as a precaution. If my estro starts to crash, I can back off. I'm curious if Kelkel has anything to say about the topic.

[kelkel]

War if you're referring to E2 it all boils down to the op knowing his limits. My TRT is 120 per week split and I do not need any AI. I can go up to 140 or so and probably be ok. Beyond that I'd probably need an AI. If I ran an AI on my normal TRT dose I'd crash quick as my normal E2 level is 16 or so. Indirectly an AI does help with prolactin issues as for prolactin to become an issue it has to be in the presense of elevated E2, hence your verbiage of controlling prolactin via E control.

It's why I suggested the op lower his test dose more to possibly avoid fooling with an AI at all...

War what dose of AI are you running and what is the timing of your dose in relation to your injections?

[kawika]

It wont at those doses. Prolactin is thought to be controlled by keeping E2 controlled. An AI does nothing for prolactin issues. Caber or prami should indeed be ran even with low test. 175mgs is borderline for me. I run test at 125mgs and include adex 2x weekly as a precaution. If my estro starts to crash, I can back off. I'm curious if Kelkel has anything to say about the topic.

How do you know when your E starts to crash?

[thai007goy]

How do you know when your E starts to crash?

Like to know this also!

[Black]

How do you know when your E starts to crash?

When my E has gotten to low, I experience achy joints and low/no sex drive (however, I still get erections).

Low E symptoms can be similar to low T symptoms.

Ps- oh yeah, and a general feeling like shit. Tired, moody, etc. Like I said, it sucks just as bad as low T.

[fit2bOld]

You are right..it would require one either use bloodwork or know how they react to E2 levels! Do you use a lower dose than when on full blast I'm assuming???

Yes I adjust accordingly and respond quite well to very small increases as compared to total amount of extra gear. Anastrozole is what I use FYI.

[Lunk1]

Yes I adjust accordingly and respond quite well to very small increases as compared to total amount of extra gear. Anastrozole is what I use FYI.

It's important to know your own body and how it reacts....thanks Fit

[fit2bOld]

Hey Kel that airal photo of the mountain range and river with all it's tributaries is quite impressive.
Nice Avi!

[kelkel]

When my E has gotten to low, I experience achy joints and low/no sex drive (however, I still get erections).

Low E symptoms can be similar to low T symptoms.

Ps- oh yeah, and a general feeling like shit. Tired, moody, etc. Like I said, it sucks just as bad as low T.

^^^That about covers it.

Hey Kel that airal photo of the mountain range and river with all it's tributaries is quite impressive.
Nice Avi!

thank you sir!

[warmouth]

War if you're referring to E2 it all boils down to the op knowing his limits. My TRT is 120 per week split and I do not need any AI. I can go up to 140 or so and probably be ok. Beyond that I'd probably need an AI. If I ran an AI on my normal TRT dose I'd crash quick as my normal E2 level is 16 or so. Indirectly an AI does help with prolactin issues as for prolactin to become an issue it has to be in the presense of elevated E2, hence your verbiage of controlling prolactin via E control.

It's why I suggested the op lower his test dose more to possibly avoid fooling with an AI at all...

War what dose of AI are you running and what is the timing of your dose in relation to your injections?

Well, my dose is 125mgs. My doc don't have me on an AI, but my last BW showed my E2 a little high. Not out of range, but a little more than id expect it to be. I dose adex @ .25mgs the days after pinning (tuesday and friday). I only do it as an unnecessary safety precaution. Id like to not use at all to be honest.

[warmouth]

How do you know when your E starts to crash?

BW. I get bloodwork done every month. Hormone panels 3-4 times a year. Plus, I can feel it. I get hot flashes and flushing bad.

[warmouth]

When my E has gotten to low, I experience achy joints and low/no sex drive (however, I still get erections).

Low E symptoms can be similar to low T symptoms.

Ps- oh yeah, and a general feeling like shit. Tired, moody, etc. Like I said, it sucks just as bad as low T.

This......

[marcus300]

one should seek to control elevated PrL levels by first controlling Estrogen levels.

[kelkel]

Well, my dose is 125mgs. My doc don't have me on an AI, but my last BW showed my E2 a little high. Not out of range, but a little more than id expect it to be. I dose adex @ .25mgs the days after pinning (tuesday and friday). I only do it as an unnecessary safety precaution. Id like to not use at all to be honest.

Have you considered dropping it to 12.5 on those days?

[MickeyKnox]

I disagree^^^^ when you start talking about test doses under 200mg EW there is a great possibility that there will not be enough excess test to convert to estrogen...thus causing low or crashed E2 levels!

Since you are using Tren it WOULD be important to USE caber or Prami to avoid prolactin! You could keep the AI on hand and monitor E2 levels! If you feel symptoms related to high E2 than a small dose may be needed!

I agree with this theory.

If the amount of exogenous Test used is simply to replace your own Test production (more or less) then, unless you have previous experience or blood work to say otherwise, chasing the prolactin down should be your foremost concern when including a 19 nor.

[lifeofdefiance]

I have caber ordered so I'm good in terms of prolactin control. lol is there a consensus on the adex issue yet though? Definitely don't want to crash my E2 levels and that's what I was worried about with running it at all at such a low dose of test. I guess I'll just start out with .25 mg eod and maybe go down to e3d or cut it altogether if its making me feel like shit.

[warmouth]

Have you considered dropping it to 12.5 on those days?

Sorry Kel. I meant to say .25mgs of adex. Not 25mgs. I'm ordering stane from AR this weekend though, so would you recommend 12.5 on those days?

[MickeyKnox]

I have caber ordered so I'm good in terms of prolactin control. lol is there a consensus on the adex issue yet though? Definitely don't want to crash my E2 levels and that's what I was worried about with running it at all at such a low dose of test. I guess I'll just start out with .25 mg eod and maybe go down to e3d or cut it altogether if its making me feel like shit.

There are only 3 ways to tell, that im aware of. And they are, in this order of importance;

1. Bloodwork.
2. Experience.
3. Visual and felt sides.

You can try to omit your AI for a wk or so and monitor closely. OR, you can run small doses (.25mg E3D) and titrate up depending on what you see and experience.

[Lunk1]

There are only 3 ways to tell, that im aware of. And they are, in this order of importance;

1. Bloodwork.
2. Experience.
3. Visual and felt sides.

You can try to omit your AI for a wk or so and monitor closely. OR, you can run small doses (.25mg E3D) and titrate up depending on what you see and experience.

Or....drop test down a bit more as Kel suggest giving a greater chance of not needing the AI. Say 125-150 EW.

[Lunk1]

one should seek to control elevated PrL levels by first controlling Estrogen levels.

Wouldn't you agree Marcus that E2 levels can be controlled bu adjusting the amount of test used, but since he is using a 19nor, PRL antoginist would still be needed??

[MickeyKnox]

Or....drop test down a bit more as Kel suggest giving a greater chance of not needing the AI. Say 125-150 EW.

For most people, this is self explanatory. Perhaps I should have included, "..at your intended dose." for the mentally challenged..^^..lol

[Lunk1]

For most people, this is self explanatory. Perhaps I should have included, "..at your intended dose." for the mentally challenged..^^..lol

Most of the time I fall in that category! I'll go back to licking the window now!

[MickeyKnox]

Most of the time I fall in that category! I'll go back to licking the window now!

Haha!

[MickeyKnox]

Wouldn't you agree Marcus that E2 levels can be controlled bu adjusting the amount of test used, but since he is using a 19nor, PRL antoginist would still be needed??

This is a very good question Lunk. At what point do you draw the line in the sand?

We know that pRL stays in check as long as E2 is at control levels. But what is/are "controlled levels" of E2?

Is it a serum level beyond replacing natural Test?

Is it a static level..ie 175mg/wk?

Is it..?

[Lunk1]

This is a very good question Lunk. At what point do you draw the line in the sand?

We know that pRL stays in check as long as E2 is at control levels. But what is/are "controlled levels" of E2?

Is it a serum level beyond replacing natural Test?

Is it a static level..ie 175mg/wk?

Is it..?

The test level will vary from person to person of course but I think 150mg is a good starting point! This would require, as we have discussed before, one to know how to evaluate themselves for high or low E2! Keeping an AI on hand and using it if elevated E2 symptoms are noticed is the key!

I keep seeing the same phrase over and over "control PRL by controlling E2"! This is true to a degree but some ppl (few as it may be) still experience elevated PRL even when E2 is in check! They simply are prolactin sensitive!

[marcus300]

Wouldn't you agree Marcus that E2 levels can be controlled bu adjusting the amount of test used, but since he is using a 19nor, PRL antoginist would still be needed??

Like ive mentioned you seek to control PrL levels by first controlling estrogen levels.
I also dont agree with running test low on a test and tren cycle, I hear many people preaching let tren do its work and run test low and then I hear the sheep following suit shouting let tren do its work. Well Test builds muscles tissue and so does tren and for me running them BOTH at an amount what will build muscle is what I advice and do. Test is the king hormone and builds tissue like nothing else so I dont advice people running a low trt dose, why cut something down what makes you feel good and build muscle, its backwards and ive always done a lot better running them BOTH at levels what build msucle.

You can control E levels by the amount of test of course because its the conversion what we are trying to stop when running higher levels but when you introduce tren the Prl should be first controlled by attacking E levels. Nandi had a great study regarding progesterone and prolactin induced gyno and how best to attack it, I can do a search and post it for you if you like

[MickeyKnox]

Like ive mentioned you seek to control PrL levels by first controlling estrogen levels.
I also dont agree with running test low on a test and tren cycle, I hear many people preaching let tren do its work and run test low and then I hear the sheep following suit shouting let tren do its work. Well Test builds muscles tissue and so does tren and for me running them BOTH at an amount what will build muscle is what I advice and do. Test is the king hormone and builds tissue like nothing else so I dont advice people running a low trt dose, why cut something down what makes you feel good and build muscle, its backwards and ive always done a lot better running them BOTH at levels what build msucle.

You can control E levels by the amount of test of course because its the conversion what we are trying to stop when running higher levels but when you introduce tren the Prl should be first controlled by attacking E levels. Nandi had a great study regarding progesterone and prolactin induced gyno and how best to attack it, I can do a search and post it for you if you like

Marcus, i would really like to have that and read it myself, if you dont mind. Im sure it would provide some insight into this low T/PRL question.

Thanks.

[Lunk1]

Like ive mentioned you seek to control PrL levels by first controlling estrogen levels.
I also dont agree with running test low on a test and tren cycle, I hear many people preaching let tren do its work and run test low and then I hear the sheep following suit shouting let tren do its work. Well Test builds muscles tissue and so does tren and for me running them BOTH at an amount what will build muscle is what I advice and do. Test is the king hormone and builds tissue like nothing else so I dont advice people running a low trt dose, why cut something down what makes you feel good and build muscle, its backwards and ive always done a lot better running them BOTH at levels what build msucle.

You can control E levels by the amount of test of course because its the conversion what we are trying to stop when running higher levels but when you introduce tren the Prl should be first controlled by attacking E levels. Nandi had a great study regarding progesterone and prolactin induced gyno and how best to attack it, I can do a search and post it for you if you like

While no doubt your word carries the weight of gold here...we will simply have to disagree on the need to run test any higher (for me at least). I have tried all three methods, have not noticed any greater results with higher test than lower and the only thing missing from the higher test levels is the unwanted sides! I don't think it's a matter of "sheep following suit" anymore than it is ppl not being willing to accept that the way things have always been done, isn't always the way they should be done!

[marcus300]

While no doubt your word carries the weight of gold here...we will simply have to disagree on the need to run test any higher (for me at least). I have tried all three methods, have not noticed any greater results with higher test than lower and the only thing missing from the higher test levels is the unwanted sides! I don't think it's a matter of "sheep following suit" anymore than it is ppl not being willing to accept that the way things have always been done, isn't always the way they should be done!

Well ive had serious results from running both at amounts what will produce muscle building and so have many of my clients and friends, so if your happy carry on doing what your doing but for me and many people I know who are serious lifters/bodybuilders run test high because its builds tissue.

[marcus300]

Marcus, i would really like to have that and read it myself, if you dont mind. Im sure it would provide some insight into this low T/PRL question.

Thanks.

Give me 2 mins mate

[Lunk1]

Well ive had serious results from running both at amounts what will produce muscle building and so have many of my clients and friends, so if your happy carry on doing what your doing but for me and many people I know who are serious lifters/bodybuilders run test high because its builds tissue.

Consider this a learning debate for me vs an argument if you will Marcus but...if you run 500/500 test/tren and you are mainly running the test for extra tissue building...wouldnt it be JUST as effective, perhaps even more effective, to run 600-700 tren and 250 or less test? I would assume that you agree tren is a much more powerful compound with much better muscle building capabilities than test. I'm not saying I completely agree with the whole 5X stronger shyt but stronger indeed!

We know that excess test causes a number of unwanted sided (yes they can be controlled with the use of an AI) but wouldn't it make a bit more sense to bring the excess test down and add a bit more of the stronger compound if you feel t5he current amount is not sufficient to build enough tissue?

OR...are you saying that test builds tissue seperatly and differently than other compounds???

[marcus300]

Consider this a learning debate for me vs an argument if you will Marcus but...if you run 500/500 test/tren and you are mainly running the test for extra tissue building...wouldnt it be JUST as effective, perhaps even more effective, to run 600-700 tren and 250 or less test? I would assume that you agree tren is a much more powerful compound with much better muscle building capabilities than test. I'm not saying I completely agree with the whole 5X stronger shyt but stronger indeed!

We know that excess test causes a number of unwanted sided (yes they can be controlled with the use of an AI) but wouldn't it make a bit more sense to bring the excess test down and add a bit more of the stronger compound if you feel t5he current amount is not sufficient to build enough tissue?

OR...are you saying that test builds tissue seperatly and differently than other compounds???

Sides can be controlled if you know what your doing and tren is alot stronger but the synergy between test and tren is remarkable and IMHO should be ran together at muscle building amounts. Ive ran that many cycles of test and tren Ive lost count so maybe if you experiement more you may also see great results. Everybody is different and I'm not saying you dont experience better or bigger gains when test is ran higher but I dont follow all this new craze of lower test, the reason why is because ive experience huge gains and better gains and many people I know have also. Its the synergy between the two just like test and hgh when you run the right amounts and control sides I experience great gains.