Aromasin doesn't work?

[MR10X]

Enzymes work do or do they? Well ask yourself this question what is the primary substrate of any enzyme? Answer proteins. Now the next question. What is the probability the enzyme is denatured to some extent as it passes thru the stomach with a PH of a whopping TWO! Answer about 100%!

Ergo unless your enzymes are "enteric coated" the degree of bioavailability is very low, such that what little "enzymmatic activity" your supplement contributes to enhance absorption in someone with an intact GI tract approximates ZERO, excepting the production of expensive feces. But if it's your desire to dump a load of money then "believe what you want".

Do you really obtain you evidence from another persons posts? Have you spent any of these countless hours looking for citations which support yours/their assertions. Because I've heard this same nonsense previously on many forums yet NO ONE provides the research to support this BS! Simply put:
1) NO AI or SERM results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation
2) There are NO differences HTPA recovery with either AI!
3) Lastly there is NO EVIDENCE a low estrogen level causes or is associated with depressed libido, PROVIDING the TT is not significantly decreased and/or the TT;E-2 ratio are not remarkably elevated.

Oddly that's exactly how "bro science" is propagated, someone with an unyielding commitment to a belief, of a particular act of omission or commission, that the evidence matters not!

[jimmyinkedup]

Enzymes work do or do they? Well ask yourself this question what is the primary substrate of any enzyme? Answer proteins. Now the next question. What is the probability the enzyme is denatured to some extent as it passes thru the stomach with a PH of a whopping TWO! Answer about 100%!

Ergo unless your enzymes are "enteric coated" the degree of bioavailability is very low, such that what little "enzymmatic activity" your supplement contributes to enhance absorption in someone with an intact GI tract approximates ZERO, excepting the production of expensive feces. But if it's your desire to dump a load of money then "believe what you want".

Do you really obtain you evidence from another persons posts? Have you spent any of these countless hours looking for citations which support yours/their assertions. Because I've heard this same nonsense previously on many forums yet NO ONE provides the research to support this BS! Simply put:
1) NO AI or SERM results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation
2) There are NO differences HTPA recovery with either AI!
3) Lastly there is NO EVIDENCE a low estrogen level causes or is associated with depressed libido, PROVIDING the TT is not significantly decreased and/or the TT;E-2 ratio are not remarkably elevated.

Oddly that's exactly how "bro science" is propagated, someone with an unyielding commitment to a belief, of a particular act of omission or commission, that the evidence matters not!

What the HELL are you on about?

[MickeyKnox]

enzymes work do or do they? Well ask yourself this question what is the primary substrate of any enzyme? Answer proteins. Now the next question. What is the probability the enzyme is denatured to some extent as it passes thru the stomach with a ph of a whopping two! Answer about 100%!

Ergo unless your enzymes are "enteric coated" the degree of bioavailability is very low, such that what little "enzymmatic activity" your supplement contributes to enhance absorption in someone with an intact gi tract approximates zero, excepting the production of expensive feces. But if it's your desire to dump a load of money then "believe what you want".

Do you really obtain you evidence from another persons posts? Have you spent any of these countless hours looking for citations which support yours/their assertions. Because i've heard this same nonsense previously on many forums yet no one provides the research to support this bs! Simply put:
1) no ai or serm results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation
2) there are no differences htpa recovery with either ai!
3) lastly there is no evidence a low estrogen level causes or is associated with depressed libido, providing the tt is not significantly decreased and/or the tt;e-2 ratio are not remarkably elevated.

Oddly that's exactly how "bro science" is propagated, someone with an unyielding commitment to a belief, of a particular act of omission or commission, that the evidence matters not!

lmao

[MR10X]

MuscleInk
Originally Posted by Brave Dave
Do you think .5mgs of arimidex from weeks 1-12 is a good amount? Also should i run it for the PCT with the clomid?



0.25mg EOD for entire cycle. Not needed for PCT.
Good idea to have lipid panel checked at end of cycle. Anabolic compounds and AIs affect lipid metabolism in negative way and can lead to hyperlipidemia/hypercholesterolemia.

[Juced_porkchop]

so estrogen doesn't matter for libido? low estrogen doesn't cause sides?
You are WRONG, and something to note: (just because there is not a study made on OUR community of aas users, DOESN'T mean its not true or possible. many "studies" are done on ill people and that can be a BIG factor , ON TOP of them not using AAS like we do...

read:
Neuroestrogens Rapidly Regulate Sexual Motivation But Not Performance-> http://www.jneurosci.org/content/33/...jz0_c.facebook

[jimmyinkedup]

MuscleInk
Originally Posted by Brave Dave
Do you think .5mgs of arimidex from weeks 1-12 is a good amount? Also should i run it for the PCT with the clomid?



0.25mg EOD for entire cycle. Not needed for PCT.
Good idea to have lipid panel checked at end of cycle. Anabolic compounds and AIs affect lipid metabolism in negative way and can lead to hyperlipidemia/hypercholesterolemia.

????????
Are you ok?
What exactly are you trying to convey? Seriously ? No sarcasm - i dont follow your posts man.

[MR10X]

Pharmacokinetics
Following oral administration , exemestane is rapidly absorbed. After maximum plasma concentration is reached, levels decline polyexponentially with a mean terminal half-life of about 24 hours. Exemestane is extensively distributed and is cleared from the systemic circulation primarily by metabolism. The pharmacokinetics of exemestane are dose proportional after single (10 to 200 mg) or repeated oral doses (0.5 to 50 mg). Following repeated daily doses of exemestane 25 mg, plasma concentrations of unchanged drug are similar to levels measured after a single dose.

[MR10X]

????????
Are you ok?
What exactly are you trying to convey? Seriously ? No sarcasm - i dont follow your posts man.

Incorrect information here,seriously where did the 9hr half life come from? Dose it twice a day? LMAO


Gender: The pharmacokinetics of exemestane following administration of a single, 25-mg tablet to fasted healthy males (mean age 32 years) were similar to the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in fasted healthy postmenopausal women (mean age 55 years).

[AnabolicDoc]

I really want to understand your point but I don't follow the reasoning of any of your prior posts on this thread. Can you please elaborate?

Edit: I didn't see your 10:20am post until now. I guess that was your main point. Thanks for clarifying.

[MickeyKnox]

Incorrect information here,seriously where did the 9hr half life come from? Dose it twice a day?

Did you read the entire article? The answer is clearly outlined and a link is provided.

[MR10X]

The mean baseline levels of estradiol and testosterone were 24.5 ± 8.8 pg/ml and 581 ± 165 ng/dl, respectively. Maximal suppression of estradiol (62 ± 14%) was observed 12 h after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane. Estradiol remained suppressed by 58 ± 21% at 24 h and returned to baseline 3–6 d after treatment (Fig. 3⇓). At the time of maximal estradiol suppression, plasma testosterone levels were unchanged and thereafter tended to increase by 32% between 2–3 d; however, contrary to the significant increase in testosterone observed after 10-d daily dosing, this change did not achieve statistical significance after a single oral dose. Serum LH and FSH concentrations were measured up to 24 h at the same time intervals as the exemestane samples for the PK analysis. The mean baseline levels of LH and FSH were 4.8 ± 2.2 and 1.3 ± 0.7 mIU/ml, respectively. The percent change from baseline up to 24 h is reported in Fig. 4⇓. The LH levels initially decreased by 26% at 2 h; thereafter, there was a tendency for an increase to a maximum of 81% at 24 h. The levels of FSH were unchanged up to 12 h and increased by 49% at 24 h.

[MickeyKnox]

Enzymes work do or do they? Well ask yourself this question what is the primary substrate of any enzyme? Answer proteins. Now the next question. What is the probability the enzyme is denatured to some extent as it passes thru the stomach with a PH of a whopping TWO! Answer about 100%!

Ergo unless your enzymes are "enteric coated" the degree of bioavailability is very low, such that what little "enzymmatic activity" your supplement contributes to enhance absorption in someone with an intact GI tract approximates ZERO, excepting the production of expensive feces. But if it's your desire to dump a load of money then "believe what you want".

Do you really obtain you evidence from another persons posts? Have you spent any of these countless hours looking for citations which support yours/their assertions. Because I've heard this same nonsense previously on many forums yet NO ONE provides the research to support this BS! Simply put:
1) NO AI or SERM results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation
2) There are NO differences HTPA recovery with either AI!
3) Lastly there is NO EVIDENCE a low estrogen level causes or is associated with depressed libido, PROVIDING the TT is not significantly decreased and/or the TT;E-2 ratio are not remarkably elevated.

Oddly that's exactly how "bro science" is propagated, someone with an unyielding commitment to a belief, of a particular act of omission or commission, that the evidence matters not!

Pharmacokinetics
Following oral administration , exemestane is rapidly absorbed. After maximum plasma concentration is reached, levels decline polyexponentially with a mean terminal half-life of about 24 hours. Exemestane is extensively distributed and is cleared from the systemic circulation primarily by metabolism. The pharmacokinetics of exemestane are dose proportional after single (10 to 200 mg) or repeated oral doses (0.5 to 50 mg). Following repeated daily doses of exemestane 25 mg, plasma concentrations of unchanged drug are similar to levels measured after a single dose.

Incorrect information here,seriously where did the 9hr half life come from? Dose it twice a day? LMAO


Gender: The pharmacokinetics of exemestane following administration of a single, 25-mg tablet to fasted healthy males (mean age 32 years) were similar to the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in fasted healthy postmenopausal women (mean age 55 years).

The mean baseline levels of estradiol and testosterone were 24.5 ± 8.8 pg/ml and 581 ± 165 ng/dl, respectively. Maximal suppression of estradiol (62 ± 14%) was observed 12 h after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane. Estradiol remained suppressed by 58 ± 21% at 24 h and returned to baseline 3–6 d after treatment (Fig. 3⇓). At the time of maximal estradiol suppression, plasma testosterone levels were unchanged and thereafter tended to increase by 32% between 2–3 d; however, contrary to the significant increase in testosterone observed after 10-d daily dosing, this change did not achieve statistical significance after a single oral dose. Serum LH and FSH concentrations were measured up to 24 h at the same time intervals as the exemestane samples for the PK analysis. The mean baseline levels of LH and FSH were 4.8 ± 2.2 and 1.3 ± 0.7 mIU/ml, respectively. The percent change from baseline up to 24 h is reported in Fig. 4⇓. The LH levels initially decreased by 26% at 2 h; thereafter, there was a tendency for an increase to a maximum of 81% at 24 h. The levels of FSH were unchanged up to 12 h and increased by 49% at 24 h.

Hey bud, are we gonna get to see a supporting link sometime today? Or do you not want us to read the entire study ourselves? Is this possible?

Or are you just going to put up cut and paste all morning?

[bigsiv]

If I showed the guys at the gym this thread and the scientific debate you lot are having backed up with scientific fact it would blow them away.
Intelligence and AAS wouldn't be put together by the ignorant people out there but this thread proves the intellect behind some steroid users. Just saying great thread guys carry on

[lovbyts]

I experienced the same thing with my last cycle using liquid Stane every other day and my e2 was about 300.

I'm running 12.5 milligrams everyday this time and will have my blood work done in about 1 week to check again.

I don't get any physical side effects from the height you too but my test levels are not anywhere near where they should be.

[emp]

If I showed the guys at the gym this thread and the scientific debate you lot are having backed up with scientific fact it would blow them away.
Intelligence and AAS wouldn't be put together by the ignorant people out there but this thread proves the intellect behind some steroid users. Just saying great thread guys carry on

!!! i was thinking the EXACT same thing!

and yes, please carry on

[MickeyKnox]

I experienced the same thing with my last cycle using liquid Stane every other day and my e2 was about 300.

I'm running 12.5 milligrams everyday this time and will have my blood work done in about 1 week to check again.

I don't get any physical side effects from the height you too but my test levels are not anywhere near where they should be.

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind, base on personal experience and the vast number of users that complain about high E2, that Stane (Aromasin) must be run ED. CURRENT clinical data suggests that the half life is approx 9 hours. This is supported by the above experiences and available facts.

But im willing to entertain any claims to the contrary. But please include links to studies so that we ALL can read them and determine the validity of such claims. Thanks for understanding.

[jimmyinkedup]

Gender: The pharmacokinetics of exemestane following administration of a single, 25-mg tablet to fasted healthy males (mean age 32 years) were similar to the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in fasted healthy postmenopausal women (mean age 55 years).

I have read this and even posted it. It is direct from upjohn/pharmacia. However an independent study on men demonstrated a much shorter active life than observed in women.

[AnabolicDoc]

I experienced the same thing with my last cycle using liquid Stane every other day and my e2 was about 300.

I'm running 12.5 milligrams everyday this time and will have my blood work done in about 1 week to check again.

I don't get any physical side effects from the height you too but my test levels are not anywhere near where they should be.

If I remember correctly, I think I read one of your posts about a month ago saying that you were seeing an infertility doctor who has you on hcg and was possibly going to add clomid. I think I remember you saying that you and your wife were going to start trying for a baby. Am I confusing you with someone else? Hope I'm not prying as that's definitely not my intention.

[MickeyKnox]

I have read this and even posted it. It is direct from upjohn/pharmacia. However an independent study on men demonstrated a much shorter active life than observed in women.

I thought that looked familiar Jimmy

But this Mystery X dude lost all credibility back when he touted this, "NO AI or SERM results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation". So i didn't bother to look it up.

[jimmyinkedup]

I thought that looked familiar Jimmy

But this Mystery X dude lost all credibility back when he touted this, "NO AI or SERM results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation". So i didn't bother to look it up.

I hear you. Im all for open debate and discussion as I know you are Mick its how we learn but it seems that is not his motive here. He seems to be trying to mock for some reason..I dont know why. At any rate we should collaborate on a write up sometime Mick. Any topic ...just would be fun to do so.

[lovbyts]

If I remember correctly, I think I read one of your posts about a month ago saying that you were seeing an infertility doctor who has you on hcg and was possibly going to add clomid. I think I remember you saying that you and your wife were going to start trying for a baby. Am I confusing you with someone else? Hope I'm not prying as that's definitely not my intention.

No you are correct but we have not started any process yet as of this time.

I have used Stane now for the last 3 cycles. None of the cycles were a complete 12 weeks and typically only a little over 6 weeks do too, let's just say life interfering with things. All blood tests were done approximately 4 weeks after starting cycle.

The first cycle I was not very consistent and my e2 was well over 300. My second cycle I was much more consistent with every other day and my e2 was still over 300. This time I'm making sure to run it every day and using it approximately the same time every day also and we will see if that makes a difference.

I am using ARR liquid stane and I am shaking the bottle very good before each use so to make sure there is no solid particles at the bottom.

[MickeyKnox]

I hear you. Im all for open debate and discussion as I know you are Mick its how we learn but it seems that is not his motive here. He seems to be trying to mock for some reason..I dont know why. At any rate we should collaborate on a write up sometime Mick. Any topic ...just would be fun to do so.

Ive been kicking around a topic that could use some clarification. I'll bounce it off you when i return form the gym this afternoon.

No you are correct but we have not started any process yet as of this time.

I have used Stane now for the last 3 cycles. None of the cycles were a complete 12 weeks and typically only a little over 6 weeks do too, let's just say life interfering with things. All blood tests were done approximately 4 weeks after starting cycle.

The first cycle I was not very consistent and my e2 was well over 300. My second cycle I was much more consistent with every other day and my e2 was still over 300. This time I'm making sure to run it every day and using it approximately the same time every day also and we will see if that makes a difference.

I am using ARR liquid stane and I am shaking the bottle very good before each use so to make sure there is no solid particles at the bottom.

Looking forward to this LB.

[gymfu]

Bold

Oh...no disrespect, you might be 100% correct. But I'm trying to figure out how to keep my estrogen down and if dosing every day is overkill and unnecessary but it's still not working then....well you get my point.

[jimmyinkedup]

Oh...no disrespect, you might be 100% correct. But I'm trying to figure out how to keep my estrogen down and if dosing every day is overkill and unnecessary but it's still not working then....well you get my point.

None taken at all man. I hear you brother and I def hope u get this squared away. When you di (im sure u will) share the solution please so we can all learn.

[gymfu]

I thought that looked familiar Jimmy

But this Mystery X dude lost all credibility back when he touted this, "NO AI or SERM results in a rebound effect upon their discontinuation". So i didn't bother to look it up.

He lost me with "there's no evidence that low estrogen levels cause low libido." Really dude, anybody that has used letro will tell you that it kills your sex drive.

[gymfu]

None taken at all man. I hear you brother and I def hope u get this squared away. When you di (im sure u will) share the solution please so we can all learn.

Defiantly, but won't start contest prep and this experiment until mid June.

[thai007goy]

Glad I found this thread.... I have a lot of questions in this area and you guys seem to be covering most of them. Thanks!

[lovbyts]

Here is my update as promised.

I got my blood work back today. I have been taking arr-r liquidstane every day 12.5mg and arr-r liquid prami 1mg every day for the last 4+ weeks

Once again my E2 is HIGH... I did not do a sensitive this test but always before.

My test level is over 1500 range 348 - 1197
My E2 is 401 range 7.6 - 42.6

Looks like my liquidstane is no good.

[lovbyts]

Now my question is what should I use since this is obviously not working at all for me?

I do have some liquid Sam from another supplier from find a while ago what I was told its probably no good so I have not used any of that. By the way as I said in my earlier post I make sure that I shake my liquid San every time before I use it

I do have clomid and Nova I could use I guess.

What also sucks is over the last year I have probably spent 700 dollars out of pocket checking my e to trying to get it in normal levels when obviously the problem is with the liquid Stan

[MickeyKnox]

Here is my update as promised.

I got my blood work back today. I have been taking arr-r liquidstane every day 12.5mg and arr-r liquid prami 1mg every day for the last 4+ weeks

Once again my E2 is HIGH... I did not do a sensitive this test but always before.

My test level is over 1500 range 348 - 1197
My E2 is 401 range 7.6 - 42.6

Looks like my liquidstane is no good.

As you are aware, if the E2 assay is not Sensitive then the results are skewed. But your previous E2 tests were sensitive? What were some of those results while taking Stane ED? Were they similar?

Now my question is what should I use since this is obviously not working at all for me?

I do have some liquid Sam from another supplier from find a while ago what I was told its probably no good so I have not used any of that. By the way as I said in my earlier post I make sure that I shake my liquid San every time before I use it

I do have clomid and Nova I could use I guess.

What also sucks is over the last year I have probably spent 700 dollars out of pocket checking my e to trying to get it in normal levels when obviously the problem is with the liquid Stan

Thats a drag for sure. If you know for a fact that your Stane is bunk, i would send a note to the Boss. Then I would switch it up to Adex. My Liquidex from AR-R.com has never let me down. AS you know, its important to bring those values down - 400 is waaaay too high.

[MickeyKnox]

Woah, i just notice your E2 is higher this time?? That doesn't make any sense at all?? If your Aromasin (L-Stane) form AR-R was working properly, your E2 levels would not be that high @ 12.5/day.

Something is not right there LB. No way should you be registering 400 at your daily dose of 12.5mg.

[lovbyts]

As you are aware, if the E2 assay is not Sensitive then the results are skewed. But your previous E2 tests were sensitive? What were some of those results while taking Stane ED? Were they similar?



Thats a drag for sure. If you know for a fact that your Stane is bunk, i would send a note to the Boss. Then I would switch it up to Adex. My Liquidex from AR-R.com has never let me down. AS you know, its important to bring those values down - 400 is waaaay too high.

Yes I am aware of this but since I had to previews and recent test to go by I figure they will be close since the others show sensitive and not. My other test was only a couple of months ago and then a few months before that.

On 1/11/2013
Total test 1415 range 348 - 1197
free test 53 range 7.2 - 24

Estrogen
Estrodial Sensitive 379 range 3-70


6/21/12
Total test 736 range 348 - 1197
free test 34.59 range 7.2 - 24

Estrogen
Estrodial Sensitive 295 range 3 - 70

[lovbyts]

Woah, i just notice your E2 is higher this time?? That doesn't make any sense at all?? If your Aromasin (L-Stane) form AR-R was working properly, your E2 levels would not be that high @ 12.5/day.

Something is not right there LB. No way should you be registering 400 at your daily dose of 12.5mg.

Yup crazy. It's because I'm using a little more compound that before but I have been 100% consistant on how I use the Liquid Stane. I also keep it in the refridgerator 24/7 and only take it out for use. Shake it a good 30+ seconds to make sure there is nothing settled on the bottom and measure out .5ml = 12.5mg every day. I'm also using the liquid prami 1ml every day.

[Times Roman]

Yup crazy. It's because I'm using a little more compound that before but I have been 100% consistant on how I use the Liquid Stane. I also keep it in the refridgerator 24/7 and only take it out for use. Shake it a good 30+ seconds to make sure there is nothing settled on the bottom and measure out .5ml = 12.5mg every day. I'm also using the liquid prami 1ml every day.

so you contacted AR-R and what was their response?

They cannot afford to receive a bad reputation, they need to make good.

What are you proposing to them?

[MickeyKnox]

Im confident Lion will straighten this out - he has always made due on any credible concern, and he never leaves a customer unhappy.

This is why he is numero uno.

[lovbyts]

I have contacted them via pm and I'm sure they will reply within a timely manner. I'm also sure they will make it right and let me know if there was a bad batch or what.

At this point I cannot expect anything more than replacement of product and hope for the best that it's good but at the same time it is frustrating to have spent the money on blood test only to find out the AI is not working properly.

I'm curious how much games have been diminished do too AI need this time and in the past.

[MickeyKnox]

I have contacted them via pm and I'm sure they will reply within a timely manner. I'm also sure they will make it right and let me know if there was a bad batch or what.

At this point I cannot expect anything more than replacement of product and hope for the best that it's good but at the same time it is frustrating to have spent the money on blood test only to find out the AI is not working properly.

I'm curious how much games have been diminished do too AI need this time and in the past.

Yeah man, that bites big time.

[lovbyts]

1st tme I thoughtit was maybe because I missed a couple of times on the EOD
2nd time I was pretty consistent at EOD but it was still way high
3rd time I have NO doubt I was perfect on the every day use with zero results.

Hopefully it's just a bad batch, still WHY always me.....

[MickeyKnox]

If i was on the same side of the border as you, i would happily forward you some Adex to keep you going until you straightened this out. I don't like to see a good man down.

[lovbyts]

As suspected AR-R was quick to respond and offer full replacement, different product or refund, what ever my choice. Not sure if there was a problem or not with the stane batch or??? but they are quick to resolve any issues and make things right.