First Cycle Q's for the Experienced Guys

[JustAnotherDood]

Hi all,


I'm here on this forum because I've been lifting for about 15 years and feel like I'm getting pretty close to my natty limits, and I feel like I can't get to where I want to be on my own. That said, what differentiates me a bit from a lot of the other guys I see posting here and lifting in general -- natty or not -- is that I have a very specific look I'm going for, as opposed to guys who maybe just want to get big with no clear cut endpoint in mind save for maybe a goal weight/body fat %. Not knocking anyone; that's just what I see. To that end, I'm hoping that by sharing my goals with you folks here, I'll be making it easier for you to understand where I want to be and thus helping to suggest what it is I should do to get there.



My Situation

Age: 30
Height: 5'8"
Weight: ~157
BF %: ~ 7-8%
Lifting Experience: 15 years, probably not more than a month off during this entire time



Details of Lifting Experience

First 11 years I spent doing what I read in the magazines, i.e. "bulking" (eating everything in sight a.k.a. getting fat), following the routines of the pros (9-12 sets per bodypart, 3 bodyparts/day for a total of around 30 sets a day), using too high of a rep range to see any noticeable hypertrophy (10-15 rep range), WAY too many isos/not enough compounds, and just basically overtraining and overeating and doing everything wrong...

By summer 2007 I was ballooning up, but I knew nothing about bodyfat. I just thought I was getting big, and liked it because people were FINALLY starting to comment on the fact that I looked bigger. All my life I've been around 140 in high school and not much more in years to follow. Well, I got up to 183 at my peak fatness and that is when I came to learn about bodyfat and realized I was getting way off track.

From 2008-2012 I started focusing on dropping fat, unknowingly at the expense of my muscle mass. I got big control over my diet, learned about BMR, bought a nice pair of Lange calipers, and started utilizing HIIT and functional strength movements for most of my workouts. I even got certified by ACE and became a trainer. I somewhat easily dropped down to 6-7%, visible 6 pack, and did this in less than a year. But unfortunately I ended up at the same weight I started at, probably around 150 at that leanness. I kept on with this training regime, losing sight of what I really wanted to begin with, which was to get bigger and be lean at the same time. So, sometime last summer I snapped out of it and I decided to start trying to put on mass, and shifted my focus from a lot of HIIT and high rep stuff to heavy compound movements that I basically neglected my whole lifting "career". I started doing 5-7 rep range of deadlifts, squats, bench, pulldowns, overhead press, with my only isos being bi/tri and lateral raises for shoulders.

So here I am now, and from doing all these heavy compounds that I should've been focusing on in the beginning and increasing my macros to a respectable level, I've put on roughly seven good, stable pounds of LBM with just a slight increase in body fat. So far, so good... You know, I feel like I've honestly put in the time and effort in the gym and in the kitchen over all these years to build a pretty solid foundation even though a lot of the time I was doing it wrong, but now gains are slowing and I still haven't reached my goals quite yet. Almost but not quite, which brings me to this site.



My Goal, Specifically

I am going for the Grecian ideals. I use a combination of several calculators found anywhere online and roughly eyeballed the differences when I got close. I say "when I got close" because for most of my body parts I am either dead on, slightly larger, or slightly under (~0.5") EXCEPT for my upper arms, forearms, and shoulders (circumference; to include upper chest and upper back). Everything else is pretty much right where I want it to be, except my waist which is a few inches high but that's just bodyfat and I know how to drop that so that is not a concern for me.

My ARMS have been the biggest problem all these years. (see avi for evidence. lol) They are so damn stubborn and just won't grow no matter what. 13" cold, unflexed if I'm lucky and I need them to be anywhere between 14"-15" to achieve the look I'm going for. My shoulders need another 2" added to them; they are lacking fullness and roundness, although I do understand that filling out my chest and back could take care of some of that 2" but I still need a decent amount of size on the shoulders themselves to bring them up to where I want them, and to make them aesthetically pleasing in relation to the rest of my body.

I DO NOT care to go any bigger than the proportion sizes laid out in the Grecian ideal philosophy as I've always been subconsciously aware that my body has had a more or less aesthetically pleasing look to it, even at 140 or so lbs, save for the arms and shoulders. So in bringing up all my measurements recently by adding that 7 pounds or so evenly around my body I feel I am very close to where I want to be and that is pretty exciting and a good feeling to have! That being said I want to use only just enough AAS to get me where I need to be: +1-1.5" on my arms, +1" forearms, and +2" shoulder circumference.



My Plan

SHOULD YOU GUYS DEEM ME A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR AAS, I would like to follow the beginner's cycle as laid out in page Novice Steroid Cycles I, although slightly eased up on since I'm a fairly little guy:



Weeks 1-12
Test E 300mg 2x/wk

No additional AAS (deca, dbol etc) - just want to do the bare minimum to get the desired results. Also I've read that dbol gains "go as quick as they come", lot of water weight, etc. I don't care about the kick-start; I'm here for solid, steady long-term gains and want to keep them -- I plan on lifting until I'm dead, and I want to look good in the coffin.


Weeks 13-17
Nolva 40/40/20/10


AI's, Should I Need Them
Aromasin 5-10mg/Day if you think I would need them. I've read here on this forum that just running test alone especially at a lower dosage may not bring about enough (or any) sides to warrant AI usage, and hopefully that would be the case because I would prefer to keep estro levels up enough that they don't effect my mood/libido/etc. So ideally I would just hold off on using AIs at all unless I needed them. The less crap I have to put in my body to get what I want, the better!!



My Questions to You Guys

1) In your experience do you think I can achieve my goals of an extra 1-1.5" on arms and 2" shoulders using Test 300mg/week (150mg 2x/wk)?

2) Assuming you've taken the time to labor through my backstory, do you think I even should bother with AAS's now or try natty for a while longer?

I apologize for the extremely long post but I would rather just bowl you guys over with ALL the details up front, rather than leave you guys wondering if I may have left something out or not.

In conclusion, I am more than open to questions, comments, and criticism of any aspect of anything I've just explained to you!! I'm a big believer in modelling and I'm looking forward to getting answers from people who have been there and done that! I have done some research myself and although supping with gear is a last resort, I understand the risks as well as the rewards and I'm willing to give it a go if my situation calls for it... after all researching only takes you so far, and eventually I'm gonna have to get down to business!


Thank you in advance for taking the time to read and/or comment, I do appreciate it.

-Dood

[lovbyts]

Age: 30
Height: 5'8"
Weight: ~157

I dont need to read anything past this.

Lear to eat. Your diet is great probably for a distance runner but not for anyone looking for any size.

You are by no means no matter what you think anywhere near your natty limits. LOL Now when you reach around 180 lbs+ get back to us.

[JustAnotherDood]

Age: 30
Height: 5'8"
Weight: ~157

I dont need to read anything past this.

Lear to eat. Your diet is great probably for a distance runner but not for anyone looking for any size.

You are by no means no matter what you think anywhere near your natty limits. LOL Now when you reach around 180 lbs+ get back to us.

I was hoping for a less condescending first response but I guess I'll take what I can get... I can't speak for others but personally when I eat more than my BMR I just get fat. As I said in part of the post that you admittedly didn't read, I have put on seven pounds of lean mass but it's slowing and if I increase calories it just gets stored as fat, so I'm leery of using the "just eat more" approach as it doesn't work for me.

And 180 lbs? Not sure if you're serious or not... my best friend is 179 around the same body fat as me, 5'11" and he's HUGE compared to me... maybe you meant 170?

Thanks anyways for your comment...


EDIT*** I should point out that I do know how to eat; I gained 30 pounds and it was all fat so clearly eating is not the problem, but thanks for that suggestion

[shishir17]

Anyone can gain size that much of a size naturally (I want to use only just enough AAS to get me where I need to be: +1-1.5" on my arms, +1" forearms, and +2" shoulder circumference) with a good diet and good exercise routine.

I would say one thing, U can't gain keeping ur 6 pack on. If u wanna gain some u gonna lose some. I guess u understand that my friend.

Now about the cycle hmmm....

Well on Test E 600mg you can gain lil fair amount of muscle but most of it will be only water bro so in order to gain hard quality muscle you need to add a strong Androgen compound that can rip & gain at the sametime.

Read through the internet about the various compounds that can help u up.

GOOD LUCK

[JustAnotherDood]

Anyone can gain size that much of a size naturally (I want to use only just enough AAS to get me where I need to be: +1-1.5" on my arms, +1" forearms, and +2" shoulder circumference) with a good diet and good exercise routine.

I would say one thing, U can't gain keeping ur 6 pack on. If u wanna gain some u gonna lose some. I guess u understand that my friend.

Now about the cycle hmmm....

Well on Test E 600mg you can gain lil fair amount of muscle but most of it will be only water bro so I order to gain hard quality muscle you need to add a strong Androgen compound that can rip & gain at the sametime.

Read through the internet about the various compounds that can help u up.

GOOD LUCK

Yeah when I was bulking years ago I was definitely eating enough since I gained 30+lbs of fat, but I'm willing to admit my routine was out of order... That's why I switched it up w/ heavy compounds and I have made gains in other areas recently, except for my arms so I don't know if I'm willing to go through another several years of trial and error just to eek out .25 or .5 on my arms... I'm getting old ya know. lol

Okay I will do some more research on the andros you suggested. Thanks shishir

[shishir17]

I will tell u one more thing

Do more isolation exercises for ur arms and delts. And up ur calories eat high carbs,mid protein & low fat food. That's it

[JustAnotherDood]

I will tell u one more thing

Do more isolation exercises for ur arms and delts. And up ur calories eat high carbs,mid protein & low fat food. That's it

Thanks bro. This is what I've been doing for almost a year now and gains are slowing to nonexistent so here I am. =)

[Antonious]

when I eat more than my BMR I just get fat.

thats why when people bulk they get fatter along with more muscle mass. You can't gain much muscle without eating more than what you need, that's just how it is. So eat above BMR and lift heavy.

[lovbyts]

Then you need to learn to change things up. Stop doing the same routine. Change from machines to dumbbells or bars. Add in forced reps and drop sets.

You still need to fix your diet. If you are mostly gaining fat you are eating the wrong food. Visit the diet/nutrition section.

No I did not mean 170 lbs. I'm also 5' 8" and can reach 180 lbs naturally without a problem. No not 7%, that's just to low unless you are competing. 10% is a good walking around bf. With a GOOD diet and GOOD training you can reach 190 lbs naturally easy enough.

[shishir17]

Thanks bro. This is what I've been doing for almost a year now and gains are slowing to nonexistent so here I am. =)

Hmmm..... well when u will be on AAS things will be different u have to follow the routine that worked for u from the start the more u change frequently the less gains u will get this what I have learned follow what has worked best for u. Always go for the quality not quantity.

[JustAnotherDood]

thats why when people bulk they get fatter along with more muscle mass. You can't gain much muscle without eating more than what you need, that's just how it is. So eat above BMR and lift heavy.

Thanks antonious

[JustAnotherDood]

Then you need to learn to change things up. Stop doing the same routine. Change from machines to dumbbells or bars. Add in forced reps and drop sets.

You still need to fix your diet. If you are mostly gaining fat you are eating the wrong food. Visit the diet/nutrition section.

No I did not mean 170 lbs. I'm also 5' 8" and can reach 180 lbs naturally without a problem. No not 7%, that's just to low unless you are competing. 10% is a good walking around bf. With a GOOD diet and GOOD training you can reach 190 lbs naturally easy enough.

That may be part of the problem, I do eat fairly clean with most of my carbs low GI and I definitely get enough protein, maybe I have to bump up my carbs a little to make sure glycogen stores are more full. Thanks, will visit the diet/nutrition section and see if I can pick up anything that applies to my situation there, like I said I'm always learning.

And I would just say that while we're the same height, it might seem easy enough for you to write off my lack of progress just due to diet since it's so easy for you to put on size, but everyone's different... I've been pretty skinny my whole life, and both sides of my family are the same way. None of us are anywhere near your size at my height or taller when taken out proportionally so, not sure what else to say but that's cool that it's easy for you but it hasn't been for me which is why I'm here.

Thanks again

[lovbyts]

That may be part of the problem, I do eat fairly clean with most of my carbs low GI and I definitely get enough protein, maybe I have to bump up my carbs a little to make sure glycogen stores are more full. Thanks, will visit the diet/nutrition section and see if I can pick up anything that applies to my situation there, like I said I'm always learning.

And I would just say that while we're the same height, it might seem easy enough for you to write off my lack of progress just due to diet since it's so easy for you to put on size, but everyone's different... I've been pretty skinny my whole life, and both sides of my family are the same way. None of us are anywhere near your size at my height or taller when taken out proportionally so, not sure what else to say but that's cool that it's easy for you but it hasn't been for me which is why I'm here.

Thanks again

That's because your whole life = 30 year. When I was in my 20s I could not get past 160 lbs. I THOUGHT I ate good/clean. I ate to many empty calories and not enough real food such as chicken, steak, fish and other proteins, not shakes. I also over trained working out 2hrs a day, 6 days a week. Your body needs time to rest and heal.

From 16 - 18 I think I weighted 150 lbs.

[JustAnotherDood]

That's because your whole like = 30 year. When I was in my 20s I could not get past 160 lbs. I THOUGHT I ate good/clean. I ate to many empty calories and not enough real food such as chicken, steak, fish and other proteins, not shakes. I also over trained working out 2hrs a day, 6 days a week. Your body needs time to rest and heal.

From 16 - 18 I think I weighted 150 lbs.

Yeah I'm sure I have some natty left in me if I really tighten everything up and hit everything just right but I already eat pretty good, like the way you say, I don't eat fast food or chips and definitely NO soda, etc. So that's why I'm here, because I feel like I'm doing everything right and still not getting the gains. But I'm willing to give it another go with some more inspiration and reminders from people like you though. Just don't want to spend the next decade busting my ass like I've been doing for so many years and really not seeing any more results. I'll keep going though because like I said going on gear is the last resort, for sure

[lovbyts]

No it wont be the last resort. Even with gear you will find 80% is still diet and training if not more. Gear will help but without the proper diet and training you will loose it as fast as you gain it and if you believe you will only do one cycle then dont do any because that's like saying you wont cvm in her mouth. lol

[JustAnotherDood]

No it wont be the last resort. Even with gear you will find 80% is still diet and training if not more. Gear will help but without the proper diet and training you will loose it as fast as you gain it and if you believe you will only do one cycle then dont do any because that's like saying you wont cvm in her mouth. lol

Haha well I never said I was only gonna do one!! I'm well aware it's not a magic bullet and I'm ready to put in the work like I've been doing.. just want to make sure I've exhausted all other possibilities as to why I'm not gaining anymore and I feel like its getting down to that but Ill probably give it another six months or so of real concentrated effort, diet, etc and if I don't see good progress from that you'll find me back on these forums again. lol

[JohnnyJohnson]

Hey guys. Looking for some advice. I'm going into week 2 of my first cycle ever, wanting to maximize what I have access to. I am 28 years old. I am 6'0" 215 lbs and have been training 5 days a week for 2 years. I have a clean, high protein diet. I have never used any gear before though. I thought I was ready and educated enough to begin a basic cycle, but I'm second guessing myself now. I began last week with one ML of dual test (E and C) at 200 Mg per ML and one ML of Deca at 200 Mg per ML. This is how it was explained to me as the best way to use it. I am using 10 Mg of Aromasin ED as an AI...right now after what I've started with, I have at my disposal: 9 ML of Dual Test at 200 Mg/ML, 9 ML of Deca at 200Mg/ML and about 700 Mg of Aromasin left. (I have a plan for PCT that I'm not inquiring about yet). I would like to get opinions on how to maximize results from what I have and how to dose it safely at the same time. If I keep going on the same track I've been on, I'll be dosing again on Monday. Please let me know what you think.

[Sfla80]

Hey guys. Looking for some advice. I'm going into week 2 of my first cycle ever, wanting to maximize what I have access to. I am 28 years old. I am 6'0" 215 lbs and have been training 5 days a week for 2 years. I have a clean, high protein diet. I have never used any gear before though. I thought I was ready and educated enough to begin a basic cycle, but I'm second guessing myself now. I began last week with one ML of dual test (E and C) at 200 Mg per ML and one ML of Deca at 200 Mg per ML. This is how it was explained to me as the best way to use it. I am using 10 Mg of Aromasin ED as an AI...right now after what I've started with, I have at my disposal: 9 ML of Dual Test at 200 Mg/ML, 9 ML of Deca at 200Mg/ML and about 700 Mg of Aromasin left. (I have a plan for PCT that I'm not inquiring about yet). I would like to get opinions on how to maximize results from what I have and how to dose it safely at the same time. If I keep going on the same track I've been on, I'll be dosing again on Monday. Please let me know what you think.

Johnny start your own thread for better responces.....you are in someone elses thread, don't want to highjack the ops thread. You will get plenty of responces on your own.

Welcome aboard and good luck

[JohnnyJohnson]

Ok sorry and thanks.

[JustAnotherDood]

Hey lovbyts,

Thanks for the reminder about eating more, you know something, I started lifting again since we spoke with that in mind, I'm taking a glucose supp for extra glucose and getting in enough high GI carbs post workout and it seems like that together with the focus I already had in the gym is making a difference just in the past few days already. I think although I was eating clean before and getting enough proteins/fat I just wasn't getting enough carbs because I was still stuck in the cutting mindset... my muscles feel really full and I have great energy now, and I'm not putting on any additional fat so I'm gonna keep at it and give it another shot before jumping on the gear.. just might be able to get those 1"-2" I'm looking for without it.

I may jump in with an update from time to time but til then...

[songdog]

Bro you need to eat more to get big.Beacuse if you cant get big naturally with food.AAS isnt going to do a thing for you.AAS isnt a magic pill you do need to eat.And you need the right foods and the right macros.You are a long way from being ready for aas.I suggest you hit the diet section.Post your diet and tell them your goals.You will start making gains a lot quicker.Diet is 90% of the battle bro.

[songdog]

I was hoping for a less condescending first response but I guess I'll take what I can get... I can't speak for others but personally when I eat more than my BMR I just get fat. As I said in part of the post that you admittedly didn't read, I have put on seven pounds of lean mass but it's slowing and if I increase calories it just gets stored as fat, so I'm leery of using the "just eat more" approach as it doesn't work for me.

And 180 lbs? Not sure if you're serious or not... my best friend is 179 around the same body fat as me, 5'11" and he's HUGE compared to me... maybe you meant 170?

Thanks anyways for your comment...


EDIT*** I should point out that I do know how to eat; I gained 30 pounds and it was all fat so clearly eating is not the problem, but thanks for that suggestion

Bro 5Ft 8 and 180 isnt big by any means.

[MickeyKnox]

Age: 30
Height: 5'8"
Weight: ~157

I dont need to read anything past this.

Lear to eat. Your diet is great probably for a distance runner but not for anyone looking for any size.

You are by no means no matter what you think anywhere near your natty limits. LOL Now when you reach around 180 lbs+ get back to us.

You took the words out of my mouth, literally. lol.

Op, lots of solid advice in here. Good luck with your diet - looking forward to see youre improvements.

[austinite]

JustAnotherDude, thank you for such a detailed post. Very rare that we get someone that gives us enough info to work with and not so vague.

1) In your experience do you think I can achieve my goals of an extra 1-1.5" on arms and 2" shoulders using Test 300mg/week (150mg 2x/wk)?
Yes. It's possible. But not without risk. And not with 300mg of test. The risk is injury. It's not uncommon to gain strength and lift heavier than you can actually handle. This is due to having a smaller than desirable build to work off of. Don't get me wrong, you look great.


2) Assuming you've taken the time to labor through my backstory, do you think I even should bother with AAS's now or try natty for a while longer?
I would wait. The only reason is to have your diet evaluated. While I read that your diet is clean, I tend to see this too often, and a professional, experienced opinion often tells otherwise. So take a moment to post your full diet, including macronutrients in the nutrition section. You'd be surprised what they find

Best of luck to you.